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Ohm (YC S15) is a smarter, lighter car battery that works with your existing car

274 pointsby blueintegralalmost 10 years ago

45 comments

sandworm101almost 10 years ago
(1) Those nasty things inside car batteries are easily recycled and in fact are recycled more often than not (like 95%+)<p>(2) Car batteries do not last only 3-4 years as per the OP. Car batteries can last decades. There are many variables, but the car in my battery is far older than 4 years. (lol)<p>(3) Replacing an easily-recyclable product with a less-recyclable one is no step forwards.<p>(4) XX addressed by OP comment, see below XX This thing is a capacitor? What&#x27;s the voltage potential in there? Any device with internals significantly beyond that may be a serious fire risk in a crash..<p>(5) Car batteries are not needlessly heavy, nor are they a stock size. Manufacturers do care about performance. If they thought the car could do with lighter battery they would use one. Have some respect for the thought behind stock engineering before replacing it.<p>(6) Shutting down the voltage supply can be a real pain. A &quot;dead&quot; battery generally still has enough juice to keep electronics ticking over. Cutting it completely is not like turning off a switch. It often means resetting&#x2F;rebooting stuff once the voltage is restored. For some (BMW) it can even mean a trip to the dealership for a special new battery ritual. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bimmerforums.com&#x2F;forum&#x2F;showthread.php?1355106-Why-can-t-I-replace-my-own-battery" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bimmerforums.com&#x2F;forum&#x2F;showthread.php?1355106-Why...</a>
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oppositelockalmost 10 years ago
Modern cars with keyless entry typically draw ~50mA@12V when &quot;off&quot;, this power is used to power the receiver, keep ECU state for such things as learned fuel maps, blink the alarm-on indicator, etc. 45Ah capacity gets you a bit over a month to drain down the battery, while 10Ah gets you a bit over a week. This isn&#x27;t good, you&#x27;d have to keep it on a battery tender if you&#x27;re not driving the car for just a week.<p>I can also see how one would implement a low voltage cutoff to prevent running down the battery, but then, how in the world do you automatically re-engage the battery to allow starting the car? You&#x27;ve shut off the power to the whole car, so you no longer have a circuit to monitor. If you&#x27;re allowing some amount of current to trickle out, you must, by definition, be allowing the voltage to sag, which can run the ECU or alarm out of spec, causing havoc.<p>As the battery designer, your only input to make these decisions is the resistance of the car&#x27;s electrical system.<p>The only thing you control is your own internal resistance.
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kraphtalmost 10 years ago
Lead acid is traditionally very forgiving with regards to temperature. How does the electrical performance of your battery vary with temperature, especially at extremely cold (-40C) and extremely hot (80C) conditions?
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sokoloffalmost 10 years ago
&gt; Oh, and its lifespan (7 years) is about twice that of a lead-acid battery (3-4 years).<p>I live in Cambridge, MA (so we get winters) and I can&#x27;t remember the last time I&#x27;ve had a regularly driven car&#x27;s battery fail in under 7 years.
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smithkl42almost 10 years ago
My car has a significant design flaw(1), in that it allows children to turn on the backseat car lights and leave them on. I&#x27;ve had more dead batteries in the five years I&#x27;ve had sentient children than I&#x27;ve had in the 40 years prior. This is a great idea.<p>(1) Perhaps the design flaw is in the children.
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allworknoplayalmost 10 years ago
This is cool. Rarely in such established industries do people step back and reconsider the actual product requirements in such a practical way. Car batteries serve two TOTALLY distinct purposes (starting engine and running electronics), and this is a great solution for those.<p>I&#x27;d be worried about the impact of rapidly increasing electrification (including hybrids) on the high end market (the most likely consumers for this), but it&#x27;s such a huge market at present that it probably doesn&#x27;t matter.<p>Kudos, guys.
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blueintegralalmost 10 years ago
Hey everyone! I&#x27;m Hunter, one of the cofounders of Ohm. Let me know if I can answer any questions.
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msandfordalmost 10 years ago
How does it handle a car that&#x27;s iffy on starting? It&#x27;s probably not hard to get something that&#x27;ll crank a starter for a few seconds. But what happens if it needs to crank for 60 seconds over a 90 second window?<p>I&#x27;ve got a 2006 Forester with a manual. I&#x27;ll occasionally stall it backing out of a parking spot, so I&#x27;ll have to start it again. For some reason it&#x27;s much more difficult to start in between cold and warmed up, so it&#x27;ll take several seconds of cranking to fire back up. If I were to stall it again trying to get going, would I then be in trouble?<p>It doesn&#x27;t happen often, perhaps only once a month. But if I&#x27;m stuck there for 30 seconds while the LiFe batteries recharge the supercap I&#x27;m not going to be happy.
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gscottalmost 10 years ago
Recently my wife&#x27;s car batter died, end of life. When a new battery was put in it the car ran poorly. Apparently when the battery dies something in the car resets and the car &quot;figures&quot; out the settings again and runs rough at idle. We called a repair shop and they said to just wait a few days and it will fix itself. Which was true, runs fine now. The moral of the story is that with a new car if the battery dies, weird things happen.
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sbierwagenalmost 10 years ago
Lithium-ion car batteries are already commercially available, though cripplingly expensive: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jegs.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;Lithium-Pros&#x2F;Lithium-Pros-12-Volt-Lithium-Batteries&#x2F;1770167&#x2F;10002&#x2F;-1" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jegs.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;Lithium-Pros&#x2F;Lithium-Pros-12-Volt-Lith...</a><p>The innovation here seems to be the capacitor bank, which lets you get away with a much smaller and cheaper lithium ion pack.
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rebootthesystemalmost 10 years ago
A solution looking for a problem.<p>Sorry, it isn&#x27;t my intention to be less than cordial. I just don&#x27;t see a problem screaming for a fix. Nobody I know is screaming about the batteries in their cars. I don&#x27;t even know (or care) what batteries are in our vehicles and I am far more aware of automotive matter than the average person out there.<p>Longevity isn&#x27;t an issue.<p>Weight? People are far more interested in losing 34 lbs of fat from their bodies than 34 lbs of battery from their cars. The former would make them very happy while the latter is completely off their radar.<p>&quot;It costs more but it&#x27;s better&quot; (paraphrasing). The world is littered with the carcasses of businesses who thought &quot;better&quot; was equivalent to &quot;sales&quot;. I&#x27;ve done that before and lived to learn a few expensive lessons. This might very well be better in objective terms from a certain point of view but people are not going to hand over another $50 for something they truly don&#x27;t care about. This isn&#x27;t an iPhone or a Nest type product where &quot;luxury makes me feel good&quot; is part of the mental process.<p>I do agree the racing community might have interest in something like this. That said, if I were building a race car I would use Lithium Polymer battery packs that deliver tremendous power at a lower volume and weight. Are there rules prohibiting this due to fire hazard issues?<p>And yet, I could be absolutely wrong in my view.
Csheltonalmost 10 years ago
So yesterday Audi&#x2F;Porsche&#x2F;VW announced a new v6 engine that will be used in variations across all their vehicles. Further down the line, they said that engine would include an electric drive component as well, incorporating a battery, effectively making all their cars &quot;hybrids&quot;.<p>This seems to be the trend, see racing tech (Formula 1, WEC, etc.). We will probably see this in all new consumer cars sometime soon.<p>Once every car has a battery, wouldn&#x27;t the standard car battery that&#x27;s most common today be obsolete?<p>At your price point, performance&#x2F;luxury cars seem to be your only market, which are also the cars that will electric drive before mid to low end cars. These are also the owners who will replace their cars every 3-5 years anyway. Either from a 3 year lease or the 4 year warranty is out and they want something new.<p>I don&#x27;t mean to be discouraging but, it seems your market viability, if there is any to begin with, is already limited to 5 years at the most.<p>I do love the idea of saving 30 lbs weight, it&#x27;s negligible for most of my driving in my sports coupe, but I like to feel like it&#x27;s making a difference!
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murbard2almost 10 years ago
So aside from what&#x27;s been said, I can get this for $200 <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.batteryspace.com&#x2F;Powerizer-LiFePO4-Battery-12V-15Ah-180Wh-30A-rate-with-PCB-and-LED.aspx" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.batteryspace.com&#x2F;Powerizer-LiFePO4-Battery-12V-15...</a> and it has 50% more storage than what is being advertised. What&#x27;s the difference? The supercapacitors?
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sliverstormalmost 10 years ago
One challenge in going after the enthusiast market is going to be, the enthusiast market already has options.<p>Back when I drove a fast sporty little car, I got one of these:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;gp&#x2F;product&#x2F;B0002ILK6I" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;gp&#x2F;product&#x2F;B0002ILK6I</a><p>$100, 4 pounds. Proven technology. I can buy it today.<p>Half the cost, 60% more capacity, and 2&#x2F;3 the weight of this &quot;Ohm&quot;. Smaller too, from the looks of the &quot;Ohm&quot;.<p>I&#x27;m not trying to rag on you guys, but I can&#x27;t figure out why I would pick the &quot;Ohm&quot;, unless maybe it&#x27;s got a really rippin&#x27; CCA.<p>Edit: Amazon is incorrect, ODYSSEY quotes the battery as 15.4lbs:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;shop.odysseybattery.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;pc680-p" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;shop.odysseybattery.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;pc680-p</a><p>To compare like for like, we would look here:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;shop.odysseybattery.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;pc310-p?pp=12" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;shop.odysseybattery.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;pc310-p?pp=12</a><p>8Ah, 5.9lbs, tiny, $163 on Amazon. I hope you can beat it on CCA.
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jhallenworldalmost 10 years ago
It would be nice if the battery had multiple outputs: for example, connect the capacitor to just the starter motor and have a second output for everything else. This way all the lights in the car would not dim during starting (why should the electronics have to deal with brown-outs?). Diodes could be used for the charging current input.
trhwayalmost 10 years ago
it is only 10Ah! Comparing that to 45Ah+ typical car battery is like that MongoDB write performance comparison without actual writing to disk :)<p>Such small capacity would work only for perfectly starting engine. Any issues and you&#x27;re out of capacity. Cranking an engine requires hundreds of Amperes, like 500-800A. Thus each 10s of cranking burns 1.5-2.5Ah.<p>The CCA rating of a car battery is the current the cold battery can produce during 30s. 10Ah LiPo at 30C would mean maximum 300 CCA - i don&#x27;t think it would satisfy any official reqs for any passenger car around. The super capacitor produces higher current, yet for much shorter bursts. Thus again only easy starting engines on smaller cars.
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hughesalmost 10 years ago
Can this battery be used to jump another (traditional or Ohm) battery when required?
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ilurkedherealmost 10 years ago
Car user here. I didn&#x27;t know I had this problem.
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dmitrygralmost 10 years ago
1. put this into a modern car<p>2. do not drive for a month<p>3. car&#x27;s slow but steady draw drains battery to where it self shuts off<p>4. attempt to enter car<p>5. realize that it is a modern car, and without electricity from the battery you cannot even open the door<p>6. ...<p>7. profit?
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itgalmost 10 years ago
Wouldn&#x27;t this need to get DOT approval? Also looking at the replies from the founder, it looks like there hasn&#x27;t been much actual safety testing done yet.
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savrajsinghalmost 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve been looking at ultracaps on digikey for a while, for just this application. Looks like a great implementation, please sign me up for the beta!
seesomesensealmost 10 years ago
LiFePO4 batteries for cars are not new. You can even buy them on Ebay right now.<p>EV Power is just one of several companies that have been making them for years.
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jasonlaramburualmost 10 years ago
Great idea in a very stagnant market. How do the LiFePO4 cells perform at high temperatures? I&#x27;ve worked with this battery chemistry before, and found most off the shelf cells have internal safety circuitry that disconnects the battery at temperatures &gt;70C. Typical engine running temperature is 60-80C (or as much as 90 on a hot day).
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sakopovalmost 10 years ago
Perhaps I am in the minority here, but in the 15 years I&#x27;ve owned cars I don&#x27;t remember a time when I planned changing the battery. It was happens in the worst time, most frequently when I&#x27;m trying to get to work or home. So getting a new battery is always an emergency to get my car rolling so I don&#x27;t get it towed or start accumulating parking tickets. Getting an eco-friendly battery is the last of my worries. I wonder how many folks out there feel the same and how this could impact a novel product like this going forward.
netcanalmost 10 years ago
I wonder what the long game is here. High end replacement batteries for existing cars seems like a beachhead attempt rather than the real target.<p>Apart from the environmentals (see sandworm101), are debatable and the main tradeoffs is weight vs capacity.<p>Sports car enthusiasts seems like the most likely market. Some of these guys will drill holes into foot pedals to save grams. You&#x27;d need to look at what&#x27;s available to them to see if this would sell. Comparing to average lead batteries is not much use.<p>Anyway, this probably isn&#x27;t the long game.
venomsnakealmost 10 years ago
&gt; Ohm’s battery reserve comes in at 10 amp hours;<p>Have these guys tried to start atmospheric diesel at -20 C? That capacity is absurdly low. I roll my 80 hp diesel with 7 times the capacity.<p>I see no benefit at all - you take something reliable as hell, make it unrealiable by adding hardware and software, reduce the capacity, just to shave 20 pounds of weight of a 3000 pound car.<p>If it was normal sized battery with some smarts - it could have been useful. But the current incarnation is - works only in the very moderate climates with mild winters.
saidajigumialmost 10 years ago
How does the Ohm battery handle extended cold conditions? I lived in a cold climate for a number of years in grad school, cold but not block-warmer cold. My experience was that I had to pay close attention to the cold-cranking amps rating of replacement batteries, so they&#x27;d still be able to start my car under the long-duress of winter. Likewise, I found that car batteries seemed to be consumables relative to my warm-climate experience(<i></i>).<p>(<i></i>) explaining the plural &quot;batteries&quot;, above.
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aidenn0almost 10 years ago
I&#x27;ve prototyped similar with just 7 maxwell caps in series wired in parallel with a lead-acid battery. The caps can start an engine entirely on their own, and the lead-acid maintains the voltage when off. It works fairly well.<p>I think someone already sells a device to work like that for commercial tractors, and I was wondering when someone more interested in starting a company than I am would realize you could have a tiny battery plus EDLCs for a car.
smoyeralmost 10 years ago
I&#x27;d love to have a lighter bank of batteries in my (small) sailing yacht but I need something that can be &quot;deep-cycled&quot;. Getting rid of several hundred pounds of batteries would leave capacity for more stuff!<p>I could replace the engine&#x27;s starter battery with this one for a bit of weight savings ... and it&#x27;s protected from the &quot;house&quot; circuits&quot; by a charging diode, so there&#x27;s no risk of discharge.
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bbcbasicalmost 10 years ago
I remember watching youtube videos of a guy starting his car with just a capacitor a year ago (was it one of you guys?) and thought this idea had a lot of potential. Good on you for bringing it to market.<p>Please be careful to not make it too &#x27;smart&#x27;. I don&#x27;t think a car battery needs to be connected to the internet of things that can be remotely hacked into :-).
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franchalmost 10 years ago
This kind of tech has been around for about a year... <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;semiaccurate.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;06&#x2F;30&#x2F;pretec-takes-step-flash-car-batteries&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;semiaccurate.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;06&#x2F;30&#x2F;pretec-takes-step-flash-c...</a>
PeterWhittakeralmost 10 years ago
JOOC, what is the CCA rating? I don&#x27;t recall seeing it in the comments.<p>There aren&#x27;t many of us who run winches, but thems of us that do want quite a few (650 CCA is not uncommon, and some winch manufacturers recommend deep cycle batteries like the Yellowtop Optima).
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kseifriedalmost 10 years ago
How does this battery handle -40C weather? What about sitting at -40C for say 12 hours (not everywhere has plugins for block heaters). Currently a ~$100 winter battery will handle that no problem. I&#x27;m from Canada so this is not a hypothetical question.
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kazinatoralmost 10 years ago
&gt; <i>Oh, and its lifespan (7 years) is about twice that of a lead-acid battery (3-4 years).</i><p>Nonsense; lead acid batteries easily last 5 years or more.<p>Since the article lowballs the life of a lead-acid battery, it&#x27;s reasonable to suspect that it&#x27;s likewise overestimating the seven year life of this new battery, which would make them about equal.<p>&gt; <i>They’re filled with garbage materials that are terrible for the planet.</i><p>More FUD. The garbage materials are sealed, and batteries get recycled. Places that sell you the new one take back the old one, generally.<p>Battery places are not going to know what to do with this new-fangled thing.<p>So it&#x27;s down to the 6 pounds and gas mileage. Okay, realistically, let&#x27;s talk about the environment now: this is for an internal-combustion-engine car that spews several tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere. If you want to save the planet, ride a bicycle. Still, this could make in excess of a one percent difference in fuel economy, which is significant, and will easily more than pay for the battery. Say you spend 200 bucks on fuel per month. Get 3 of those back thanks to the 6 pound battery, that&#x27;s 36 over 12 months. If it holds up for 10 years, 360 saved.<p>Easier on the lower back is a plus. For many people, this is a do not care; only the DIY battery swappers who do it in the parking lot will be somewhat relieved, as well as the people who swap batteries as part of their work duties.<p>Poor capacity is a minus. People don&#x27;t just run the stereo while parked; sometimes they have the headlights on or use other accessories, not always ones built-into the car. On a warm day you might listen to the stereo, <i>and</i> have a fan circulating the air. How about emergencies? If you&#x27;re stranded somewhere with a dead engine, it&#x27;s better to have more battery capacity than less for whatever. Flashing your lights at another car, say.<p>&gt; <i>They die without warning</i><p>That is not entirely true: there are in fact warning signs which, combined with age (being say &gt; 5 years) add up to &quot;change the battery&quot;. A lead-acid batter that has given you five warnings will then die without an <i>additional</i> warning, if five warnings is all which that battery has been blessed with. Those who don&#x27;t recognize the warnings of course curse the battery for dying without a warning.<p>Who is to say this battery won&#x27;t exhibit sudden failure modes? Suppose the business takes off and millions of these that are actually sold to consumers are made in sweatshops overseas, with all kinds of corners cut to save costs. Will <i>those</i> units still hold up? Let&#x27;s compare prototype to prototype, shipping product on the shelves with shipping product on the shelves.
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blitialmost 10 years ago
@Founders: Any data comparing it to Optima batteries?
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teekertalmost 10 years ago
Perhaps it is time to start using CMSs that translate units into local units as can already be done for timezones. Just a thought :)
frgewutalmost 10 years ago
I have always wondered whether it would be possible to remove alternator from ICE cars and substitute it with a chargeable battery.
legulerealmost 10 years ago
I wonder how this will play with deposit refund systems for lead acid car batteries like they exist for instance in Germany.
digitalnealalmost 10 years ago
I could see this being an attractive solution for a battery to power electric turbos but not as a main battery replacement.
walshemjalmost 10 years ago
Is the weight&#x2F;size of a battery really that important in the total mass of a car - what&#x27;s the USP here.
toddkazakovalmost 10 years ago
&gt; With that in mind, Ohm is focusing on the performance car market first. Those are the guys that’ll rip out their passenger seats to gain a tiny performance gain on the track<p>Give me a break. With 10 amp hours my car will probably not be able to make through a single engine start.
gcb0almost 10 years ago
if it is so smaller inside the big case, why not pack twice the caps and have double the running time&#x2F;service life?
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jchomalialmost 10 years ago
This is great!
curiousjorgealmost 10 years ago
so another inaccurate and unscientific claims that investors love throwing their money at because it&#x27;s a startup. Techcrunch is like the tabloids for questionable startups and it&#x27;s really hurt the perceived quality. I&#x27;ve built a filter mechanism for TC since a few years ago when they just became a dvertising platform rather than a serious journalism
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kevin_thibedeaualmost 10 years ago
&gt;if it’s ever about to reach the point that it’ll no longer be able to start your car, it’ll just turn itself off. Your lights will fade out and the radio will go quiet<p>Hope you don&#x27;t plan on selling in the US because this behavior is going to get you sued into oblivion by the family of whoever ends up dead because the lights turned off abruptly on a vehicle with a faulty charging system.
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