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Is Eclipse JDT dying?

65 pointsby pdeva1over 9 years ago

23 comments

mmilinkovover 9 years ago
&quot;A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on&quot;<p>JDT is <i>not</i> dying.<p>I am the Executive Director of the Eclipse Foundation, and I am here to tell you that the commit numbers quoted in the blog post are completely bogus.<p>The stats shown on the Eclipse project pages only show the activity in the master branch. At the moment, the vast majority of the JDT activity is happening in a separate Java 9 branch. If you actually look at the git repositories directly (see link below for one repo), you can find a couple hundred commits in September, not zero.<p>The other thing going on is that the team has been in rampdown mode for the Mars.1 release shipping in the first week of October. A code freeze leading to a release is standard operating procedure for the Eclipse project.<p>In summary, this article is based on incorrect and incomplete numbers, and is entirely misleading.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;git.eclipse.org&#x2F;c&#x2F;jdt&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.core.git&#x2F;stats&#x2F;?period=m&amp;ofs=10" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;git.eclipse.org&#x2F;c&#x2F;jdt&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.core.git&#x2F;stats&#x2F;?per...</a>
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lchengifyover 9 years ago
I have a love &#x2F; hate relationship with Eclipse. On one hand it&#x27;s everything I&#x27;ve always wanted development to be: Technically correct, free, pluggable and open source. On the other hand I&#x27;ve upgraded my computer 8 times in the past 10 years and Eclipse is constant in its ability to always be way to slow to do anything.<p>I now use JetBrains IDE&#x27;s and VIM and it&#x27;s a totally different world. It&#x27;s nice to not have to think about what random Eclipse plugin is colliding with what other random minor version update that is stopping me from using the debugger correctly.<p>Sometimes if a task is complex, annoying and specific enough, it&#x27;s better to just pay a company to produce a maintained tool rather than relying on the open source community to just &quot;solve it for you&quot;.<p>A good analogy might be Gimp vs Photoshop. Gimp is great for learning and gets you there, but if your job depends on it, it starts making economic sense to pay someone for something better.<p>I started using Eclipse back at School and it was great at getting me into programming. It will always have a place in my heart ... just not on my hard drive :&#x2F;
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RyanZAGover 9 years ago
Kind of surprised by the comments here regarding speed. Have none of you used Eclipse recently on an SSD? I use Jetbrain&#x27;s stuff a lot of the time, but the biggest problem Jetbrain&#x27;s stuff has is how terribly slow it is compared to Eclipse.<p>Are these comments just relics of experience from years ago, or is there some secret I&#x27;m using in having Eclipse be around 2x the speed of Jetbrains? Just tried opening an Android Java project in both Eclipse and Android Studio and the Eclipse is finished loading before Android Studio is even 20%<p>Other than that, Eclipse is free software which is important in the same way Linux is important to cultivate even though we have Windows.
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alanfranzoniover 9 years ago
Imho Eclipse has never been a good ide. Its confusing user experience never appealed me. But then, it was free and had certain features and was quite extensible.<p>Then Netbeans began improving quickly, IDEA had a free edition and Jetbrains released many good IDEs for other languages as well.<p>Game over.
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ruk_boozeover 9 years ago
The log begs to differ<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;git.eclipse.org&#x2F;c&#x2F;jdt&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.core.git&#x2F;log&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;git.eclipse.org&#x2F;c&#x2F;jdt&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.core.git&#x2F;log&#x2F;</a>
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gueloover 9 years ago
I&#x27;m always so confused by comment threads like this page. I used Eclipse daily for 6 years then was forced to switch and now I&#x27;ve been using IntelliJ daily for the past 2 years. So I think I&#x27;m qualified to make a fair comparison and I still vastly prefer Eclipse. But then I look at comment threads like this page and it&#x27;s all about how superior IntelliJ is. It always leaves me confused, like I&#x27;m missing something about IntelliJ but I don&#x27;t know what it is.
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bhoustonover 9 years ago
It seems that only one guy is responsible for most of JDT: Markus Keller:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;eclipse&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.ui&#x2F;graphs&#x2F;contributors" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;eclipse&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.ui&#x2F;graphs&#x2F;contributor...</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;eclipse&#x2F;eclipse.jdt&#x2F;graphs&#x2F;contributors" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;eclipse&#x2F;eclipse.jdt&#x2F;graphs&#x2F;contributors</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;eclipse&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.core&#x2F;graphs&#x2F;contributors" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;eclipse&#x2F;eclipse.jdt.core&#x2F;graphs&#x2F;contribut...</a>
mindcrimeover 9 years ago
Dying? I doubt it. While it&#x27;s not the tool of the &quot;cool kids&quot; anymore, it Just Works, and it has gotten better in some important ways with the last couple of releases. I have to admit, when they started the whole 4.x thing, I was not a fan, and I do still think a lot of work went into making Eclipse more &quot;web based&quot; in a way that didn&#x27;t actually add much value. And as result, the UI got buggy and it got slower and less stable. But at least with the Mars release, Eclipse works amazingly well. The performance is reasonable, most all of the plugins I want to use installed cleanly and work with no problems, etc.<p>The only real fly in the ointment to me, is something that isn&#x27;t any fault of Eclipse itself. The Groovy&#x2F;Grails IDE has not(last time I looked anyway) shipped a Mars compatible version, meaning I&#x27;m stuck using an older version of Eclipse for doing Groovy&#x2F;Grails work. But that&#x27;s mostly, as far as I can tell, a side effect of Pivotal dropping their support for Groovy and Grails.
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EdSharkeyover 9 years ago
Eclipse has always been a needed and valuable IDE for Java development. If I wanted to spin up a Java app with Maven, I could do okay with Eclipse. Refactoring tools work fine, debugging is great.<p>Support for languages OTHER than Java, however, vary wildly in terms of value.<p>One language support that seems to have crossed over into complete obsolescence is JavaScript. I hate to break it to you Eclipse Foundation, but developing JavaScript on a WebIDE is completely out of the question for many of us, so your fancy Orion system is a non-starter. It&#x27;s mean of me to say, but I&#x27;m rooting for Orion to fail so you can move those developers back to enhancing the desktop IDE&#x27;s JavaScript support.<p>Eclipse JSDT is my only option, and it seems broken and unmaintained. Around the 2008 timeframe, I was really impressed with JSDT&#x27;s ability to build out a type library as it parsed my prototypes, it really understood the type system when I added JSDocs. It all works ok for rink-a-dink projects that are targeting the browser and coexisting with HTML. But, for any modern development like server-side Node.JS or CommonJS browserify&#x2F;webpack projects in the browser, ES6 or anything modern, Eclipse JSDT is really up a creek without a paddle. I can&#x27;t use you, and that makes me so sad to say because I <i>WAS</i> a staunch Eclipse user who turned his nose up at JetBrains!<p>To make matters worse, Eclipse has gotten slower and buggy since the last major upgrade (Luna?) and WebStorm is cheap and great and amazing at parsing JSDoc&#x27;s to the point it practically turns JavaScript into a statically typed language, and it groks CommonJS and my node_modules folder (with the help of a little plugin I downloaded.) I admit I haven&#x27;t tried running Eclipse in a year, so perhaps the bugginess has been addressed.
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barrkelover 9 years ago
Post open sourcing, Eclipse development was supported by IBM for strategic reasons, in opposition to MS. When Oracle bought Sun, the strategic relationship changed, and IBM saw less reason to invest in Oracle tech.<p>IMO Eclipse is a product of a particular type of engineering, one that is done on a 9-5 payroll, and never as a labour of love. I&#x27;ve always found it awkward to use and surprisingly difficult to configure - even simple things like syntax highlighting is spread over multiple locations in the byzantine preferences. The whole perspectives thing, and its obsession with you selecting a workspace, up front, which is distinct from the project you&#x27;re working on - it forces the user to adopt its internal idioms and jargon, rather than the other way around.<p>Eclipse killed off JBuilder&#x27;s original IDE back in the day, undercutting it. I far preferred JBuilder&#x27;s UI.
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mataugover 9 years ago
I started using Eclipse as a netbeans convert, I loved it initially until ofcourse I started using IDEA from Jetbrains. This has been the case with most of my friends so I&#x27;m not really surprised by the lack of interest in Eclipse.
thrownaway2424over 9 years ago
DRAM shares plummet.
chaostheoryover 9 years ago
imo Eclipse&#x27;s main flaw was that plugins just didn&#x27;t work or stay working. It seemed to have gotten better in later years but it still wasn&#x27;t good enough for work. I&#x27;m not sure how not using Swing affected development either since Swing had some huge improvements in 1.7<p>Intellij pretty much took over
anthonybsdover 9 years ago
It&#x27;s really sad to see this happening. I prefer IntelliJ for most of my development work, but certain things it&#x27;s completely unsuitable for. Debugging multi-threaded code in particular in IntelliJ is a very paintful experience compared to Eclipse.
saidajigumiover 9 years ago
Many years ago, Eclipse as a whole had a few promising points:<p>* Open-source, with an apparently large community<p>* Extensible within itself via plugins<p>* Some interesting GUI features:<p><pre><code> * User- and plugin- definable and customizable &quot;perspectives&quot; that captured specific workflows, e.g. debugging, language X editing, schema editing, etc. * For its time, relative to other IDEs (Visual Studio, I&#x27;m lookin&#x27; at you) a much easier approach to managing panes and tabs to the user&#x27;s liking. * The fantastic ability to quickly narrow the settings pane navigation via text search. OS X&#x27;s System Preferences later added a similar feature to find &amp; narrow pref panes based on a keyword search. I still feel that there&#x27;s untapped opportunity for GUIs and traditional editor modes (emacs&#x2F;vim) to leverage spinoffs from this interaction model. </code></pre> That said, Eclipse never seemed to surmount what I feel were its major difficulties:<p>* The Workspace -- IMO the most absolutely toxic abstraction an IDE has ever had. All &quot;projects&quot; must live under a &quot;workspace&quot; which is both an on-disk top-level directory+data that users must cope with above their project(s) and an inescapable in-code monstrosity that plugin writers must also cope with. This was a mimicking of other IDEs that thought it was a good idea to maintain an entire separate organizational data structure for code that created a separate hierarchy that duplicated and obscured the on-disk organization, and a short-sighted hard-coding of a Java-centric mindset where any non-trivial codebase was certainly going to consist of multiple interdependent projects. The Workspace was a core architectural disaster. A symptom: it made Eclipse ridiculously painful to use to, e.g., &quot;just edit a python file&quot;. Contrast with TextMate&#x27;s lightweight approach of &quot;a directory is a project&quot; and fast in-project navigation&#x2F;fuzzy search tools. No state was required other than what was on disk. TextMate&#x27;s full power and bundles were available with zero friction for either project-centric for file-centric work.<p>* Speed -- The more time goes on, the less excusable Eclipse&#x27;s dog-slow performance is. Early on, it was easy to overlook its slugishness, because reasons. Some recent work has had me suddenly delving back into (two different!) Eclipse projects, and its amazing just how the poor the UI responsiveness compares to other modern environments, even on screamingly fast hardware.<p>* Extensibility schizophrenia -- Despite Eclipse being extensible through plugins, those were really envisioned as third-party shippable modules. User configuration was a separate second-class sytem, entirely GUI-managed, and a major pain to clone to a new system. Compare to how Emacs &amp; Vim work with a VCS-managed home directory, or even just a zip file or tarball. In no small part, this came from Eclipse&#x27;s foundations on an early Java&#x2F;JVM compiled-only mindset. With no scriptability baked into that platform, there was little choice but to have a strong divide between code (plugin) vs. data (configuration).
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laveurover 9 years ago
Good let it fall to the wayside while better tools come along.
landryraccoonover 9 years ago
Suppose you have a hard requirement that your tools are free and open source. What IDE would you recommend as a replacement for Eclipse? (JetBrains is out, it&#x27;s neither free nor open source). The worry I have with Eclipse dying is that there isn&#x27;t a great completely open alternative.
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vvandersover 9 years ago
Required: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;theprofoundprogrammer.com&#x2F;post&#x2F;29839282968&#x2F;text-ive-got-ninety-nine-problems-and-eclipse" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;theprofoundprogrammer.com&#x2F;post&#x2F;29839282968&#x2F;text-ive-g...</a>
agumonkeyover 9 years ago
Eclipse is Emacs done wrong.<p>ps: oops, that was meant to be an answer for <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10274067" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10274067</a>
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PaulHouleover 9 years ago
Yes.<p>I know a lot of iOS developers that hate development for Android and I think Eclipse is a major reason. Unlike Linuxers, Macers know that a good user interface is possible thus they can&#x27;t put up with the crashing, slowness, pluginitis,...
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alistproducer2over 9 years ago
eclipse for java. notepadd++ for js and php. moving to android studio, but it&#x27;s been pianful so far.
spiralpolitikover 9 years ago
Eclipse teaches developers so many bad habits that I will be quite happy for it to die in the fire.
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loliveover 9 years ago
Do you realize that some people are coding Javascript (sic) in Notepad (sic)? So please, let&#x27;s be serious. Eclipse (and IntelliJ, and Netbeans) are f.cking AWESOME productivity tools !!!!