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Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

312 pointsby pdeva1over 9 years ago

45 comments

solutionyogiover 9 years ago
Having mainly done line of business applications my entire life, I have a slightly different take.<p>Jira won because it was not opinionated. You can use it however you want. FogBugz had the philosophy to make bug entry super easy above anything else. Jira will let a manager define new custom fields and make them all compulsory. It perfectly fits how manager at big companies think.<p>FogBugz provides Completion Date Probability Distribution chart and Burn Down Chart [2]. Anyone who has worked for big companies knows that these two are USELESS for them. They set a project delivery date and you just have to hit it.<p>At my current company, we are going for SOC1 compliance. This forces an amazingly complicated issue workflow and they implemented it very easily in Jira. I am looking at FogBugz documentation on workflows [1], and I don&#x27;t see how we could have implemented the same in FogBugz.<p>I also feel that Jira has a better ecosystem for plugins and integrations then FogBugz.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;help.fogcreek.com&#x2F;7483&#x2F;statuses-categories-and-workflows" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;help.fogcreek.com&#x2F;7483&#x2F;statuses-categories-and-workfl...</a><p>[2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fogcreek.com&#x2F;fogbugz&#x2F;features&#x2F;project-management&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fogcreek.com&#x2F;fogbugz&#x2F;features&#x2F;project-management&#x2F;</a>
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JimDabellover 9 years ago
There&#x27;s an interesting discussion happening on Reddit involving ex-employees of both companies:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;programming&#x2F;comments&#x2F;3n2sc1&#x2F;why_fogbugz_lost_to_jira&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;programming&#x2F;comments&#x2F;3n2sc1&#x2F;why_fog...</a>
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MichaelGGover 9 years ago
Yet FogBugz still feels way easier to use. Every time I&#x27;m in an Atlassian product, mainly Stash and JIRA, the UI sucks. I use them several times a week and still get lost. Maybe I&#x27;m dumb, but I don&#x27;t seem to have this problem on other systems. But hey, at least JIRA isn&#x27;t the craptastic laggy pos that is Podio.<p>Certainly right that I&#x27;ve never seen FogBugz outside of myself or customers. Also, I think the name must hurt them. It feels dumb bringing up &quot;FogBugz yeah with a z&quot;. As silly as a reason that is, I think it carries some weight.<p>Content marketing may have helped them with SEO, no? Not that it SEO alone would close large enterprise deals.<p>Oh and the plugins on FogBugz did suck. I remember setting up a hosted account, and wanted to plugin to Github. Support sorta mentioned being able to custom hack something up, but IIRC, didn&#x27;t actually give us any simple way to achieve it. (This was several years ago so perhaps I&#x27;m mis-remembering.)
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command_tabover 9 years ago
And yet, &quot;Creating a JIRA task is like going to the fucking DMV.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jesseherlitz&#x2F;status&#x2F;648557144845910016" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jesseherlitz&#x2F;status&#x2F;648557144845910016</a>
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dannyrosenover 9 years ago
I brought Fogbugz into two organizations (100+ accounts) as a QA Engineer and it worked great -- when it came to bugs.<p>When we started doing agile (and then &quot;Agile&quot; ... ugh) development the entire process broke down. There were no (good) plugins that could do kanban and moving features from state to state to state dramatically increased the size of an items log. That, along with the friendly, and then suddenly not so friendly filtering lead to our team dropping the product and moving to Jira.<p>While Fogcreek&#x27;s &quot;Fastbugz&quot; was a gallant effort in modernizing the application stack and speeding up page loading time, it fell short as it didn&#x27;t functionality support feature _and_ bug management.<p>I should note, we had reached out to Fogcreek with all of our requests and critiques but they weren&#x27;t interested in hearing us out passed the usual account or customer service manager.
spolskyover 9 years ago
Sorry, Prashant, you lost track of the plot of the story somewhere along the way.<p>(creator of FogBugz, here)<p>FogBugz won and Jira won, but they were playing different games.<p>I wanted to make software development better for programmers. When I started creating Fog Creek Software in 2000 programmers were treated like typists. They were not paid very well (my starting salary was $33,000). There was almost no thought around how software should be developed. Companies that scored high on the Joel Test[1] were almost unheard of.<p>The LAST thing I wanted to do was make another tool of oppression for management to impose gantt charts and deadlines and strict rules about who has to sign off on things.<p>I set out to make software development better for programmers by blogging[2] and by building a company that would be a great place to work[3].<p>In 2000 the only way to do that was to bootstrap it. With a team of four people we couldn&#x27;t build anything complicated. We started with bug tracking software because at least we could touch one aspect of programmers&#x27; lives with our philosophy.<p>FogBugz was designed for smaller collegial teams of people that wanted to work together effectively and needed a clean and simple way to track issues using the smart workflows that small, professional teams like to use.<p>It was remarkably successful and profitable from 2000 to today. We&#x27;ve never stopped working on improving it, but we also have never abandoned the market of small collegial teams of smart people.<p>By contrast, Jira was designed as &quot;Enterprise Software&quot; with features to help managers impose specific workflows on teams. Selling Enterprise software is a lovely, profitable business and Atlassian has great success selling to large organizations who ignore FogBugz, but it&#x27;s the opposite of what I wanted to do. Anyway Atlassian is going public with this enterprise software, good for them, I&#x27;m sure they&#x27;re going to enjoy their well-earned private jets.<p>But FogBugz was the means, not the ends, and at Fog Creek our ambition was not to be the world&#x27;s greatest bug tracker software company, it was to fix things for developers. So we kept plugging away at other ideas. Some of them were kinda dumb. Some were moderate successes.<p>Two of them, Stack Overflow and Trello, were huge hits and spun off into separate companies. Stack Overflow, thanks to Jeff Atwood&#x27;s inspired leadership, has had more impact on making software development better for programmers than any bug tracker ever will. Trello has grown as popular in three years as Jira grew in 15 years.[4]<p>Neither of them would have been possible if we didn&#x27;t have the cash cow of steady FogBugz profits. That&#x27;s what bootstrapping is, folks! You build one thing and use it to build a bigger thing.<p>In the meantime I think the world has figured out that programmers are writing the script for the future that everybody is going to live in, so conditions have gotten better. In big cities employers are falling over themselves to invent new ways to pamper and delight their programmer employees, with the massages and the sushis and the dog yoga. We programmers built ourselves hundreds of amazing tools, from github to npm to ci tools, build tools, IDEs, code refactorers, etc. etc. that make programming a million times better than it was in 2000, and bug tracking is just a slice of that pie and not a particularly important or interesting one.<p>But that said, FogBugz is still very popular and very profitable and thousands of teams use it every day, and we&#x27;re still reinvesting those profits in making it better and in developing new products to make the world better for developers, and even though it doesn&#x27;t support pointy-haired micro-managers and doesn&#x27;t allow you to create a custom workflow requiring that a VP-or-higher sign off on bug reports, there are still small, collegial teams of smart developers who have figured out that this is how they want to work.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.joelonsoftware.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;fog0000000043.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.joelonsoftware.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;fog0000000043.html</a><p>[2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;joelonsoftware.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;joelonsoftware.com&#x2F;</a><p>[3] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fogcreek.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fogcreek.com&#x2F;</a><p>[4] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;goo.gl&#x2F;hTXXPG" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;goo.gl&#x2F;hTXXPG</a>
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bausover 9 years ago
It could be argued that Trello will eventually be larger than either of these products, so I don&#x27;t think the story has been completely told. I&#x27;ve used Jira as a manager in both a large and a small installation and hated it both times. It feels like 90s bug tracking system with huge forms and intractable workflows.<p>With that said, Spolsky (although I think a lot of his writing is fantastic) rarely addresses his mistakes.
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afsinaover 9 years ago
Also Atlassian products are multi platform. Whereas fogbugz is windows only for the server side. That is a deal breaker for many.Additionally unlike Fogbugz Atlassian products are DB agnostic.
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alexwebb2over 9 years ago
Slightly off topic here but since everyone&#x27;s chiming in about their experiences with bug trackers, I figure somebody might find it useful.<p>I did a pretty intensive search involving trials of a couple dozen trackers about two years ago when we decided to ditch Jira due to some serious performance and UI issues. I tested pretty much every serious contender on the market.<p>I ended up going with YouTrack and it&#x27;s been pretty fantastic. One of those by-developers, for-developers things with a lot of functionality out of the box and a decent API for more advanced stuff, and most importantly it has very good performance and a sane UI. It does what it&#x27;s supposed to do and then gets out of the way, which is exactly what I wanted. I recommend taking it for a spin if you&#x27;re looking for something along those lines.
atestiover 9 years ago
For me the main way in which FogBugz has &quot;lost&quot; is that they silently discontinued the &quot;FogBugz for your Server&quot; version. The plugin system was great and we have our own installation on our own systems (no cloud allowed). With the &quot;performance upgrade&quot; they seem to have forked FogBugz, thrown out all the plugins, Lucene search and redid the GUI. And stopped updates for the server version:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;help.fogcreek.com&#x2F;fogbugz-release-notes" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;help.fogcreek.com&#x2F;fogbugz-release-notes</a><p>And now just recently there was a little bit of activity, like that they now offer a VM of some kind with the new version. But I think we can&#x27;t use that because it is the expensive, unlimited user license and they must install it somehow and plugins would still be gone, which we depend on.<p>And for all of this there is little to no communication.<p>The stop of &quot;Kiln for your Server&quot; was also done extremely quitely.
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mariusmgover 9 years ago
Seems to me Atlassian &quot;won&quot; because they had a actual sales team not because of &quot;technology&quot;.
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osullivjover 9 years ago
I was working at a large British bank in 2005 when Jira started to get adoption by several teams. The approved bug tracking product was ClearCase ClearQuest. If you think the Jira GUI is ropey you should see ClearQuest. Absolute nightmare. By contrast Jira was free to get started, and much nicer than corporate approved incumbents. They called it land and expand!
lloyddeover 9 years ago
This takes me back ten years to 2005. I was the QA lead at an open source company and we really wanted to use FogBugz. An operations engineer imported all of our bugzilla issues and we were starting to put FogBugz through its paces, but what we couldn&#x27;t figure out was FogBugz licensing for all of our OSS community. In the en, I think Joel did get back to us and tell us their product was not a fit.<p>Another adviser replied to the thread below (oldest at the bottom) that Apache also uses Jira.<p>In the end we kept using Bugzilla.<p><pre><code> From: bizguy Subject: RE: [Staff] FW: Joel Spolsky intro? </code></pre> I second FogBugz being unreachable. Also, Jira has a MUCH more impressive client list:<p>Cisco, Oracle, HP, NASA, JPL, CERN, MIT, CalTech, Cornell, HBO<p><pre><code> From: ceo Subject: RE: [Staff] FW: Joel Spolsky intro? </code></pre> in view of the FogCreek people being unresponsive, and advisor&#x27;s instant &quot;don&#x27;t use them&quot; response, I&#x27;d like for us to do a bit more due diligence on Jira. I notice that they have per-server licensing ($4800), with unlimited users.<p><pre><code> From: me Subject: Re: [Staff] FW: Joel Spolsky intro? </code></pre> jira is java based and requires running tomcat which can be a bit of a pig.<p>It is supportive of open source communities. That is about all I know about it right now... I will look at it more tonight.
<p><pre><code> From: advisor To: ceo Subject: Re: Joel Spolsky intro? Avoid, use Jira...
 ceo wrote: &gt; &gt; Dear friends, &gt; &gt; I&#x27;m trying to get a hold of Joel Spolsky so we can work out some
 &gt; arrangement for using their FogBugz bugtracking system. Please let me &gt; know if you know Joel and can help with an intro, since my blind email &gt; isn&#x27;t getting a response.</code></pre>
yaurover 9 years ago
A big thing with the pricing... If I&#x27;m an individual contributor and want a bug tracker, I can drop 10 bucks on a JIRA license (out of pocket) or convince someone from management that I need it and that they need to pay for it.
davidwover 9 years ago
Did Fogbugz really &#x27;lose&#x27;? It&#x27;s not as if bug tracking systems are a winner-take all market with strong network externalities. Granted, it did not &#x27;win as much&#x27; as JIRA, but that&#x27;s not necessarily a loss. One of the cool things about many businesses is that they are positive sum games. Maybe FogBugz works better in some niches and still generates a nice living for the people who work on it.
protomythover 9 years ago
Wasbi had nothing to do with it. JIRA caters to micro-managing mangers and FogBugz didn&#x27;t. That is the simple lesson in enterprise. Trying to give a technical explanation isn&#x27;t really telling the story.
mrweaselover 9 years ago
Jira certainly is more popular, but I never viewed the two products as being in direct competition. I don&#x27;t know about the inner working and finances of Fogcreek, but given that Fogbugz is still around they&#x27;ve may have lost anything.<p>Pricing would certainly be a knob Fogcreek could tweak, if they believed that they where losing to Jira in some shape or form. Given that they haven&#x27;t lowered prices or expanded their free tier sales of Fogbugz could be on the precise path that Fogcreek want for the product. Maybe their selling extremely well in a marked that most HN readers just aren&#x27;t in contact with. A marked that doesn&#x27;t mind the added cost.<p>It&#x27;s different approaches to sales, make a little money from a large pool of customers, or sell a more expensive product&#x2F;service to a smaller market. Both strategies are completely valid, but due to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Uber and whatnot many will falsely assume that more customer is always better.
pbreitover 9 years ago
This is a terribly uninformed perspective on the monumental achievement of large success. If anything, fog bugz &quot;lost&quot; to stack exchange which, imo, is a more profound achievement than the over crowded project management category that still hasn&#x27;t put out a product that has broad appeal.
maxharrisover 9 years ago
I had to use Jira at my last job. I could never figure out what it did that you couldn&#x27;t do in github with less trouble and fuss.<p>I can&#x27;t say that I would absolutely refuse to work at a place that uses Jira, but it is definitely something that would make me lean towards another offer.
martingordonover 9 years ago
My Jira experience was absolutely terrible. We were an 8 person team at time and looking for something more robust than Trello and ended up settling on Pivotal Tracker.<p>I signed us up for an Atlassian Cloud trial and right away things weren&#x27;t looking good. I was expecting to dive right in but instead had to wait 30 minutes until my instance was ready or whatever.<p>They only offer a 7-day trial. How am I supposed to properly evaluate something as fundamental as an issue tracker in 7 days? That&#x27;s not long enough to learn to use it and then get the team to try it out for a small project.<p>Worst of all were the 5-10 second load times on each page. I contacted support to see what they could do but they weren&#x27;t too helpful and I stopped using it 2 hours into the 7 day trial.
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chaitanyaover 9 years ago
The one feature of Fogbugz that I really like (and the reason I use it) is evidence based scheduling: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.joelonsoftware.com&#x2F;items&#x2F;2007&#x2F;10&#x2F;26.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.joelonsoftware.com&#x2F;items&#x2F;2007&#x2F;10&#x2F;26.html</a><p>It takes away a lot of pain associated with giving estimates, especially from a manager&#x27;s point of view. Devs need to break their tasks down to subtasks of sufficient granularity, and estimate the number of hours&#x2F;days it would take them to complete each of these subtasks. Fogbugz does everything else, and gives a nice probability distribution chart of completion date that you can share with the stakeholders.
lmmover 9 years ago
I don&#x27;t think it was Wasabi so much as Windows. You didn&#x27;t have to use Wasabi to write plugins for FogBugz, but you did have to use .net. The kind of people who read Joel&#x27;s blog run on *nix, and probably have some Java in their stack; if you give them a .war that runs on Tomcat then they know what to do, and if they don&#x27;t know then there are plenty of open-source tutorials. If you&#x27;re giving them a .net product to deploy on a windows machine, not so much.<p>I think the final chapter is yet to be written though. Trello is a joy to use, much better than Jira. And AIUI it&#x27;s on a much more developer-friendly stack.
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meshkoover 9 years ago
Never used Fogz, but Atlassian products are so astonishingly bad that it is hard to find anything about them inspiring.
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mixmastamykover 9 years ago
On the other hand, I wish bitbucket were more popular compared to github. It doesn&#x27;t seem like they invest much into bitbucket, as some silly issues have persisted for years. Have they given up?
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zkhaliqueover 9 years ago
I have a question about raising VC money earlier. If you want to grow fast and push some free platform out to change the world, what is main danger in raising VC? I&#x27;m talking about the VCs these days who invest in companies that make open source like NGiNX, MySQL etc. And you need resources to grow, if you want to beat competitor platforms.<p>I mean logically, if they&#x27;ve already given you the money and there isn&#x27;t any way they can take over governance of the company, then the only leverage I can think of is signaling in future rounds. And if you weren&#x27;t even going to raise one VC round, then at that point you may as well raise exactly one and then signaling is irrelevant. Yes you&#x27;ve diluted yourself 20% and now you&#x27;ve got a board member that wants you to grow fast, but so do you. Of course, I&#x27;m assuming here that you failed to raise on Kickstarter, and you aren&#x27;t making enough $ to hire people to do development&#x2F;testing&#x2F;security&#x2F;evangelism&#x2F;PR&#x2F;marketing&#x2F;operations&#x2F;etc. anytime soon. Why waste years of your life when you can hand the project off eventually to a community you&#x27;ve built, and move on? If you want to retain control over the project forever, can always be BDFL of the community, at least until some better-funded company forks it. I just really want to understand, what is the reason that guys like DHH say VC can control you after you take their money?
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jeffmkover 9 years ago
Has anyone had experience with Redmine [1]? It&#x27;s quite easy to use and extend via its plugin system, but I don&#x27;t see many people who have encountered it in the wild.<p>I think its horrendous out-of-the-box look-and-feel detract heavily from its appeal. Nowadays I&#x27;d probably lean toward Gitlab, which seems to offer much of the same but appears much more modern.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.redmine.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.redmine.org&#x2F;</a>
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mostlystaticover 9 years ago
My guess is that Fogbugz is a cash cow without much new development effort. The focus of FogCreek&#x27;s founders is on StackExchange and Trello now.
tbrockover 9 years ago
<p><pre><code> This meant they couldn&#x27;t use all of the ecosystem and amazing tooling around Java </code></pre> I&#x27;ve never laughed so hard in my entire life.
dragonshover 9 years ago
I am still not sure if fogbugz lost. In general simple systems are always hard to built.<p>In general while doing a project with fixed date approach Jira issue tracker is indeed not inline with the source code. So there is a discrepancy between what is in issue tracker and whats in the source tree. Moreover developers cutting corners to meet the fixed date is a technical debt for future and Jira promotes it.<p>Fogbugz with its probabilistic approach is better matched with the actual source code, since even though developers over or under estimate, its probabilistic distribution analysis puts standard deviation and means put in front of their eyes to do better. So in general fogbugz approach results in better source tree and less technical debt.
fideloperover 9 years ago
Who is Prashant Deva and should I care about their opinion?<p>Did Fogbugz actually lose? Do they even have the same market (enterprise vs smaller)? Perhaps they just fine operating at a smaller volume.<p>Isn&#x27;t the product being &quot;too basic&quot; a sign of focus? Perhaps the author needs&#x2F;wants more features, but that can&#x27;t be generalized for all of Fogbugz&#x27;s audience.<p>I&#x27;ve heard just as many owners say &quot;I don&#x27;t want as many features as competitor X&quot;.<p>That all being said, there are some good things in there - perhaps Fogbugz could look into a partner ecosystem. Making your own language is probably a bad long-run choice.<p>However I get the feeling this is comparing apples to oranges.
rsobersover 9 years ago
Won based on what criteria?<p>Atlassian has over 1,100 employees. When I was at Fog Creek we had ~30.<p>So if we&#x27;re talking about profit per employee, I can assure you the people who built FogBugz don&#x27;t feel like they&#x27;ve lost anything.
mijustinover 9 years ago
What metric are we using to determine who &quot;won&quot; here?<p>Did Jira &quot;win&quot; just because OP likes it better?<p>Because both companies are private, we don&#x27;t really know how much <i>profit</i> either product has made.
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djurover 9 years ago
Couldn&#x27;t disagree more on the integrated wiki point. Issue trackers with integrated documentation pages (wikis or otherwise) make it really straightforward to generate docs as a byproduct of working on tickets, or to resolve support requests by linking to the docs. Eventually you will want an external documentation tool, but Atlassian doesn&#x27;t have one that&#x27;s any good (Confluence is by far the worst wiki-like application I have ever used).
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robotnoisesover 9 years ago
&gt;&gt; While most of these plugins didn&#x27;t offer much in terms of functionality, for the person making a decision, it definitely helped to tip the scales in Jira&#x27;s favor.<p>For me, this kinda encapsulates the problem with Jira. Jira is extremely impressive in the number of features, plugins, and customization opportunities it offers, and yet, I can&#x27;t honestly say even half of the stuff is in any way helpful to me as a developer.
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PretzelFischover 9 years ago
I would like he to define lost. Fogbugz is still around and profitable.<p>I have always seen Fogbugz as a support tool first, bug tracking kindof it&#x27;s what they built for Fogcreek&#x27;s process(for Copilot support and development). If you did everything like them it probably was a great fit. Jira on the other hand I have always seen as bug tracker.
skrebbelover 9 years ago
A bit off topic, and I know I&#x27;m sounding like a condescending jerk here but I mean it: but why do people love bugs so much that they want to purchase an entire database program to track them? I mean, if you have more than 10 bugs that are highly important to keep track of, it seems to me that you have much larger problem than whether to purchase JIRA or FogBugz.<p>I mean, either a bug is important to you so prioritize fixing it, or it isn&#x27;t important to you so you can just ignore it and see if it surfaces again.<p><i>Every single team</i> I&#x27;ve seen that used a bug tracker ended up with hundreds of issues, status of 90% of which was unknown, maybe already fixed, maybe not relevant anymore because the entire component got overhauled the other day by Joe. What&#x27;s the use of this stuff?<p>I got this from a blog post (by Ron Jeffries I believe, but I forgot), but basically his idea was that the moment you turn something that <i>you don&#x27;t want to have</i> into a formalized process, people tend to bias towards getting more of it. If you are forced to choose between fixing a bug or forgetting about it, you&#x27;re urged to fix it fast. If you can just &quot;file the bug and go on with your work&quot;, the bug stays.
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otabdeveloperover 9 years ago
Programmers hate being held accountable, yes. (This is logical given that they control so few of the risks.)<p>But in the end, accountability is the reason why you&#x27;re being paid that salary, not knowledge of framework APIs or algorithms.<p>Embrace that responsibility and process, don&#x27;t fight it.
dwdover 9 years ago
Surprised no mention of Kiln which was a really nice product when I first used it back in 2008. The ability to inline comments in a code review that then hooked back to the job in FB was fantastic.<p>GitStash is getting there now, but the Jira integration is still a little lacking.
mangelettiover 9 years ago
What about the name? He could have potentially left out the most important mistake Spolsky ever made, which is to name a product Fog Buzz. He might as well have named it Rain Smelt, or Lamp Shade. It sounds terrific once you use and like the product, but it doesn&#x27;t sound remnisent of any kind of successful brand ever. Even the use of 2 words is a departure from the norm. Most of the big brands have 1-word names, and this is not s coincidence. Even Facebook was changed from The Facebook. Brand matters, and names matter.<p>To play devil&#x27;s advocate with my own argument, 37 Signals is a bit different as well and people (perhaps more so in the tech community) loved the brand, but the thing is, they used &quot;Basecamp&quot; as their product name.
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ohitsdomover 9 years ago
&gt; Fogcreek invented their own language. This meant they couldn&#x27;t use all of the ecosystem and amazing tooling around Java<p>Java? I believe that should be .NET.
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eikenberryover 9 years ago
&gt; This meant they couldn&#x27;t use all of the ecosystem and amazing tooling around Java [...]<p>Does anyone else get the same confused feeling whenever they read things like this? Every experience I&#x27;ve had with the Java&#x2F;JVM ecosystem has been anything but amazing to the point where I now avoid it like the plague. I can&#x27;t believe I&#x27;m that much different than everyone else, but I see this often enough that it makes me wonder.
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Grazesterover 9 years ago
I not heard good things about Jira&#x27;s ease of use
lifeisstillgoodover 9 years ago
1. Make a JIRA plug-in that turns JIRA into Fogbugz<p>2. Profit
curiousjorgeover 9 years ago
I think the last bit about what <i>didn&#x27;t matter</i> has a huge take away home value. It&#x27;s ironic that so much crap we read today drives home these two things that we focus so much on:<p>1. Content Marketing<p>2. Sales Team
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draw_downover 9 years ago
I still can&#x27;t believe they invented their own language... but #1 seems like it would have been enough.<p>I hate using JIRA, though, just like I hate using all Atlasssian products, so it would have been nice if FogBugz won.
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