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If So Many People Support Mass Transit, Why Do So Few Ride? (2014)

28 pointsby merrakshover 9 years ago

28 comments

Karunamonover 9 years ago
There&#x27;s a simple explanation for this that neatly fits the questions raised in the article: public transit sucks.<p>It&#x27;s dirty, it&#x27;s crowded, it&#x27;s noisy.<p>I rode on BART a grand total of four times in my entire life, and don&#x27;t really have any desire to do it again. Were I a native of the area, you bet I&#x27;d be willing to throw money at it to make it suck less. But in the meantime, I wouldn&#x27;t be riding it because, as mentioned before, it sucks.
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erobbinsover 9 years ago
It&#x27;s inconvenient.<p>My car takes me from right where I am, to exactly where I want to go, exactly when I want it to, in a minimum of time.<p>Public transportation takes me from sort of where I am, to the general area I want to go, slowly, on their schedule and not mine.
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wildmusingsover 9 years ago
I live in a city with great public transit. I take the bus to work (~15 miles) every day. I don&#x27;t have a car because it&#x27;s expensive (car payment + maintenance + parking) and I can&#x27;t justify the expense.<p><i>But</i> cost aside, I&#x27;d much rather have a car. With a car, you go where you want when you want. No bus schedule to plan around, no multiple connections. You can play whatever music you want at whatever volume. You can easily transport items larger than a backpack. You don&#x27;t have to sit next to a smelly or rude stranger. Much to the chagrin of social-engineering city-planner types, Americans value their freedom more than they care about some environmental cause. And let&#x27;s face it, public transportation will not solve America&#x27;s gas consumption and pollution problems. Most people live in sprawling suburbs that can never be adequately served by public transportation.
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PLenzover 9 years ago
Being a native of New York City I didn&#x27;t own a car until I was 30 and my wife and I bought our first house north of the city. It gets about 3 miles a day between Metro North and home.<p>I&#x27;m still taking mass transit everyday and probably will be until I retire some decades from now. To me NOT taking public transit is abnormal.
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lisa_hendersonover 9 years ago
If so many people support government regulation of the drug industry, why aren&#x27;t more people taking drugs?<p>If so many people support the government regulation of debt, why aren&#x27;t more people running up debts?<p>If so many people believe our society should have hospitals, why aren&#x27;t more people going to hospitals?<p>If so many people support national parks, why aren&#x27;t more people hiking in national parks?<p>If so many people support government regulation of the radio spectrum, why aren&#x27;t more people listening to radio?<p>If so many people support conservation efforts for lobster, why aren&#x27;t more people eating lobster?<p>If so many people support the public good known as _______, why aren&#x27;t people making use of ________.<p>The reality is most sane people support a very broad range of policies which do some public good, even if the people themselves don&#x27;t expect to directly benefit from that good, especially over the short-term. We can all support the existence of hospitals, even if we have no plans to go to a hospital this year. But we want hospitals around just in case we might need them, this year or at some future time.<p>Likewise with mass transit. I bike to work whenever I can, but if the weather is especially awful, I take the subway.
siliconc0wover 9 years ago
I live in Los Angeles and would have seriously undervalue my time for a bus to compete with the costs of driving (or even Uber). And I live near a stop.
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coldteaover 9 years ago
Depends on where you live. In Europe, tons of people ride. In NY&#x27;s or Chicago subway too.<p>If your city has crappy mass transit, and is designed for car driving with office areas and places of interest being several miles apart each, it&#x27;s no wonder people don&#x27;t ride mass transit.
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coroutinesover 9 years ago
Maybe I&#x27;m weird.<p>I take BART quite a bit in the bay area (California). I find it timely and reliable - I&#x27;ve never been inconvenienced by the few moments where operators strike. It&#x27;s just happened that I didn&#x27;t need to ride BART that day.<p>My best experience was when I got on the wrong BART train (to Richmond) and had to double-back to a transfer station to go to Livermore. I was only late by 10 minutes. I got off the from-Richmond train and transferred to the train I wanted and it was off in literally less than 15 seconds. BART is incredibly efficient (imo).<p>That said - it would be a much better experience if it were cleaner, people could eat on it (and not be dicks with their garbage), and if we had a guard in every car to keep aspiring artists from performing and then asking you for money for their impromptu show.<p>I guess I have perfected my resting bitch face - I don&#x27;t get asked for donations that often. :-)<p>In college I also rode the RTD buses out of Stockton. Now that was a poor experience. Frequently late drivers, and I witnessed 3 homeless men stand up and urinate on the floor - on separate days over the same semester. Oh and the bus they usually sent was too small for the neighboring town I&#x27;d get picked up at - I&#x27;d often have to stand for the hour-long ride on that route. (think short-bus for special education - standing + no room)
liveoneggsover 9 years ago
the end of the article gets it right: make driving more expensive. I started seriously choosing the train over driving during the Bush gasoline shortages where taking the train was, roughly, about the same cost as gas + toll for a round trip.<p>I would advocate for massive tax breaks on commercial development locating a door within 1&#x2F;2 mile of a train station&#x27;s walking exit for office space. The residential developments will follow suit.<p>Another part is that most cities do not place jobs or residences near public transit. In atlanta you get off the train and walk through parking lots to get to your office building, which is located on its own little island of parking, water features, and roads. It&#x27;s ridiculous and the situation I describe is practically a best case since many (most?) job centers are located miles away from the train.<p>Taking the subway and not driving to work is one of the best parts of living in nyc. You don&#x27;t really realize how much commuting in traffic sucks out of your until you just don&#x27;t do it for a few years and then try to do it again.<p>People don&#x27;t like the bus because it&#x27;s slow, often comes to your stop very infrequently&#x2F;unpredictably and is stuck in the same traffic as your car.
blindgeekover 9 years ago
I&#x27;d love to be able to use more public transit. After all, I&#x27;m blind, in case the username didn&#x27;t give away my secret. However, my city does not offer bus service on nights and weekends, and frequently places that I wish to go are not even served by the bus system, even though they are definitely within my city.<p>I try to walk to as many places as I possibly can. For the rest, if I&#x27;m going somewhere during the day and it is reachable by bus, I do that. Otherwise, I&#x27;m stuck taking a cab. In reality, what this means is that I try to limit the things I do outside of my home. That&#x27;s kind of easy for an agoraphobic anti-consumerist nerd. But still, I&#x27;m grateful for online shopping when I need it.<p>As an aside, the ideal city for a blind person in the United States is Portland Oregon. I don&#x27;t live too far from there, and I visit it occasionally. The Max is beautiful. Portland has obviously made a huge effort to provide great mass transit, and from what I saw, it was very heavily used.
marknutterover 9 years ago
The easy solution to all this is to start encouraging companies to promote work-from-home days. If you do the bulk of your work on a computer, there&#x27;s no reason you <i>absolutely</i> need to go into the office every single weekday to get your job done. If every company that allowed their employees who could work from home to do so at least once per week and worked together to evenly distribute those days throughout the work week, we&#x27;d see a massive drop in traffic. This could easily be done by providing tax incentives for doing so, and the money saved on road maintenance alone would likely pay for it. I can&#x27;t get over how insane it is that we all insist that we need to work face to face when our faces are buried in a computer screen for the vast majority of our work days. It&#x27;s absurd.
Mzover 9 years ago
I have lived without a car for several years. When I gave up my car, there was a bus stop on my street and a bus stop in front of my office. It was a 7 minute trip by car. It would have taken two hours by bus to go to the down town central transit center and switch buses and come back. Walking to my office only took an hour and did not involve paying a fare. With walking daily, I rarely walked more than 15 minutes before being offered a ride to work.<p>I now live in Califoirnia where public transit is substantially less crappy. I don&#x27;t use it frequently, but I do use it.<p>Maybe a better question would be about why the hell you can&#x27;t get there from here when so much money is apparently being thrown at the problem.
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crazy1vanover 9 years ago
In most cities, driving -- although it comes with its own frustrations -- is a completely viable way to commute. Sitting in traffic and maintaining a car are negatives, but being able to travel whenever you need to and going directly to your destination are huge pluses. So public transport must be competitive with driving. It must win in convenience or value or both. In some places like Manhattan, driving is so painful that public transport usually wins out. But, in many cities driving is more convenient and sometimes even cheaper. Of course, comparing cost is not easy since roads and buses and rail are usually all funded by an amount of general tax revenue.
dennmartover 9 years ago
When I moved to the Bay Area (Berkeley), I had to take the bus to work, and I hated it because it was so unreliable. The AC Transit bus was never on time. A bus was supposed to arrive at my stop at around 8:15 AM, but instead it arrived anywhere between 8:00 AM and 8:30 AM. It also was supposed to pass once every 30 minutes but oftentimes I waited a full hour before another bus came. The last straw came when AC Transit went on strike in August 2010 - that&#x27;s when I decided to buy a car.<p>When I had to commute into San Francisco from Berkeley a few years later, I took BART into the city, and didn&#x27;t fare much better. While the trains were on time more often than not, there were way too many delays when we were en route. Since the underwater tunnel between Oakland and SF is a choke point - just two tracks - whenever there&#x27;s a delay in there and you were behind it, it would take at least an extra 15 minutes to get us moving again. The BART strike from 2013 was also pretty bad for commuters.<p>I lived in New York and have been to Osaka, Japan many times, and I don&#x27;t mind public transportation at all in those cities - they cover a lot more ground than the Bay Area, have plenty of trains and buses and aren&#x27;t too affected by delays when it happens.
hackuserover 9 years ago
Two thoughts:<p>1) Maybe this is a conversion problem, as in converting shoppers into customers. In my experience, public transit is difficult to grasp the first few times you use it, and complex even after that. Think of all the steps involved, and the uncertainties. Think of running out the door and using mass transit in a new city (NY if you haven&#x27;t been there, or DC). Mass transit systems require users to acquire expertise to use. Signage, just as a start, is awful; identifying routes based on their endpoints is meaningless information. It&#x27;s not hard to imagine how the user&#x27;s interface with the system could be made much simpler, so no matter where I am I can easily and confidently learn the fastest way to get someplace else, and pay and use the system simply.<p>2) People deriding public transit as impossibly unpleasant or who say government couldn&#x27;t possibly execute it should see how well it works in places where it&#x27;s funded. New Yorkers generally love their mass transit. European cities have much better and more popular systems. It&#x27;s widely done; the question is why you think the U.S. so much less competent to do it than all these other countries.
shermanyoover 9 years ago
No one has mentioned what I see as the obvious answer:<p>People support it for _other people_ so the roads are clearer for _their car_.
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buses_suckover 9 years ago
Buses are the dumbest idea on earth, and we all know this intuitively, because we rode them to school as children, and something inside us swore to never let that happen again.<p>Have you tried riding the bus as an adult? Is their a slower form of suicide?
carsongrossover 9 years ago
Two major reasons I can think of:<p>First, most U.S. public transit, particularly in the west, is inconvenient. Cars have dictated our urban layout and it&#x27;s almost impossible to build a city that works well for both modes of transport. (e.g. cars mean large parking-lots and, therefore, spread out establishments, which means public-transit stops cannot be located near a walkable area and must drop you off in a concrete desert, with a quarter-mile walk to anything.)<p>Second, the behavior of riders on U.S. public transit is nearly always uncivilized and frequently atrocious.
ocschwarover 9 years ago
Because everyone who rides the train makes my car commute easier.
vorgover 9 years ago
&gt; People believe transit has collective benefits that don&#x27;t require their personal usage<p>People with cars still want to live close to the subway station so they can use it on Sunday afternoons when there&#x27;s no parking 5 kilometers up the road. When new subway lines and stations open, the property developers build apartment complexes over them with 2 carparks per apartment and sell them to the rich. The people without cars have to catch a bus to the subway station.
joshuaheardover 9 years ago
People want door-to-door personal transportation (car), not fixed mass transit along select major routes (bus, rail), and they have ever since the car was invented.
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superskierpatover 9 years ago
I live in Montreal so I might be an outlier, but if more people took the public transport system, you&#x27;d need way more buses at rush hours.
code_sterlingover 9 years ago
My commute in is about 40 minutes by car and 80 by bus with walking from the stop. Double that for the return trip, and my bus commute is almost 3 hours out of my day. And the bus pass costs $130. So it&#x27;s not even saving me a lot of money. It works out to just shy of 2 weeks of my life that I loose per year taking the bus. That&#x27;s not insignificant.
WildUtahover 9 years ago
It&#x27;s impossible to design a community at any reasonable cost where a large fraction of people are expected to drive cars unless you make all other forms of transportation impossible or impractical.<p>The space needed for most people at an office or business to park free is greater than the total space the buildings will occupy. The buildings need to be father apart to limit traffic density. The roads need to be wider and run faster and therefore be louder and more dangerous than pedestrians will like. the walking distances increase and increase to accommodate the buildings farther apart and the empty space needed to control traffic. Transit routes and stops cannot get close enough to destinations in those conditions and transit times explode. Denser centers surrounded by less dense land uses become impossible when parking is necessary; density has to even out and that makes efficient transit routing impossible while hub-and-spoke systems drastically increase wait times.<p>Transit stinks in America and it&#x27;s not the result of bad transit planning or lack of effort to build more or bad maintenance and operation practices. (Though we do also have those problems.)<p>On the other hand, a transit oriented community will have land values to high anywhere you want to go that ordinary people will never be able to afford to pay to park even with massive parking subsidies. The transit community makes widespread driving as impossible as individual car-oriented design makes transit.<p>In the USA, personal motorcars are the rule everywhere because it&#x27;s the law. The (second) Roosevelt administration propagated rules to the banks and communities that required car-oriented development everywhere in the nation. Then traffic engineering and urban planning and zoning &#x27;professions&#x27; emerged to implement and force those rules on every property developer. It became an iron triangle: drivers won&#x27;t pay for parking, city planning councils won&#x27;t upset drivers, engineers force pure car-oriented development on both to keep the peace, and transit users don&#x27;t have political power by definition or they&#x27;d have used it to get themselves cars already. Today you can&#x27;t build in America unless you can prove that even on the busiest hour of the busiest day, there will be extra free parking for every person that might want to use or visit the property. You can&#x27;t build unless you can prove that the roads are big enough to accommodate every single person who might come in a car or pay to expand the road.<p>The result is that quality transit, outside areas built up before Roosevelt, is impossible and cannot develop.<p>This is the essential reason that San Francisco and New York are so expensive. Car oriented space is awful to live in. [0] There is a limited amount of legacy walkable urban space grandfathered in America. They aren&#x27;t making any more of it. Millions more people want to live there than ever can.<p>If it were allowed to redevelop Peninsula or East Bay cities at low urban density like SF (75 people per hectare), then developers would do it and it would be possible to rent a spacious apartment for US$1500. At medium urban density like Tokyo (150) or high urban density like famously liveable Paris (300), you&#x27;d only need one or two cities to change the rules to relieve the regional problem. You&#x27;d have to build a transit system and accept the lack of free parking, of course.<p>The reason most of the world doesn&#x27;t have the same problem is that the American system demands extreme Soviet-style centralized command-and-control dictation of land development. Parking minimum requirements are the most powerful rules making things bad [1] but floor-area-ratio maxima, separate use zoning, wide feeder streets and traffic engineering, and &#x27;green area&#x27; buffers hurt, too. More free-market oriented development patterns prevail in less regimented societies without such dense thickets of rules and car-oriented development cannot gain a foothold against free organic urbanity.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;books.google.com&#x2F;books?id=pkmluwVdwx0C" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;books.google.com&#x2F;books?id=pkmluwVdwx0C</a><p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.uctc.net&#x2F;papers&#x2F;351.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.uctc.net&#x2F;papers&#x2F;351.pdf</a> See also Shoup&#x27;s The High Cost Of Free Parking book.
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antimatterover 9 years ago
I live in Los Angeles. Where is this mass transit they speak of? There are exactly zero mass transit options for me to use to get to work (San Fernando Valley to Santa Monica) within a reasonable time.
sharkweekover 9 years ago
I support mass transit, but I ride my bike to and from work. <i>shrug</i>
IkmoIkmoover 9 years ago
Public transportation is one of those &#x27;if you build it they will come&#x27; type of things. But as it requires massive, long-term infrastructure investments that disrupt the city and can bankrupt companies or even municipalities if it goes wrong, it&#x27;s usually built in a subpar manner on a small scale trying to fit into an existing city, and then tries to iterate on that every few years by scaling it up and modernising it while having to work with old permanent structures. So a lot of public transport really sucks, either they&#x27;re buses that are less flexible than your car but adhere to the same space and speed limits, thus making a car a better idea, or they&#x27;re small rail projects that don&#x27;t get much coverage or frequency.<p>But now imagine the corollary... a city with just small sidewalks, bicycle lanes and public transportation lines, and absolutely 0 roads for cars, and no real local car industry. Now imagine the cost of breaking down buildings, laying massive amounts of road, manufacturing new cars and teaching everyone to drive. It&#x27;d be just as tricky.<p>There&#x27;s nothing inherently wrong with public transportation but implementing it right into existing cities isn&#x27;t trivial. It&#x27;s supported so much because we long for a good implementation, public transportation done right is cheaper, more efficient, reduces congestion, improves equality &amp; access to affordable transport, is safer and more environmentally friendly, while also giving all of its occupants the ability to do something else than paying attention to not getting into an accident. We long for that and support public transportation not because it&#x27;s so fantastic but because it could be better than what we have, and should.<p>It&#x27;s not like that everywhere. Take Belgium for example, expanded its infrastructure and its public transport use doubled between 2000 and 2012, doubled (!) in half a generation. Beijing&#x27;s subway alone, a city of 12 million, delivers around 9m trips per day, forget the bus lines. There&#x27;s already a ton of congestion, the mass transit system is hugely popular and hugely important.<p>Anyway I feel it&#x27;s distinctly an American (and say an Australian) issue. Most of the developed world (take Europe or say Japan) consists of very dense urban areas, and a whole bunch of nothing. The US is like that, too, but there&#x27;s still a ton of urban sprawl and even extremely urban areas like LA have lots of low-density living. Public transport&#x27;s economics are essentially usage &#x2F; investments, and building infrastructure to reach large areas of low-density (and thereby low-usage) living is not really worth the expenses. So you get this sub-par network where you have to wait half an hour for a bus that takes you to the centre where you have to move to a different one, it just isn&#x27;t feasible. But take New York City, 8 million people and more than 5 million daily trips on the subway alone. It&#x27;s extremely well used and hugely important, just like it is in Beijing, or in London or Paris. I&#x27;ve either visited or lived in all those places and the subway was indispensable, a part of life. But most people in the US or say Australia don&#x27;t live in density like that.<p>Anyway the article felt a bit thin... It spends about an entire page on the notion that &#x27;despite a half-cent sales tax increase to pay for transport [doesn&#x27;t mention this money goes to both public and non-public transport and isn&#x27;t necessarily always earmarked, either] public transport actually declined by half a percentage point&#x27;. I mean that&#x27;s not analysis, it&#x27;s just a tiny little fact that could mean anything. Again, for one we don&#x27;t know how those funds are spent. And secondly, those funds may be a tiny fraction of the necessary budget for maintenance and scaling infrastructure with a growing population.<p>Anyway I think self-driving cars will nail public-transportation first. The type of investments necessary to set up rail, tram, rain or even bus service aren&#x27;t trivial, but a fleet of self-driving cars and people inside working in privacy and comfort on their laptops in comparison is. For new cities, or countries where insane projects can still get done without decades of bureaucracy (I&#x27;m looking at you Beijing metro line) massive public transportation is a huge deal. But trying to reinvent the American city to accommodate public transport (and cycling infrastructure) done right (which in a dream world would entail destroying a city like LA and magically spawning a denser version of it in its place so that public transport works), in the context of American politics... I give self driving vehicles a much better shot of working around that problem.
ronnierover 9 years ago
Depending on which city you live in, the other passengers can be a threat to your life. For that reason alone I don&#x27;t think public transportation will ever be very popular in the US. It might work in a few places, but most places the threats of random violence just isn&#x27;t worth it.
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