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Why programming and musical talent go together: enjoying seeing patterns

46 pointsby KentBeckover 15 years ago

10 comments

Towle_over 15 years ago
This seems like a very muddled claim to me. I won't refute that there's some kernel of truth in there somewhere, but using anecdotal evidence to loosely tie one's own theory together rarely ends well, especially when one's claim would be beneficial to oneself if true.<p>A perhaps more plausible and/or stronger explanation for programmers' disproportional display of music talent as a group:<p>To gain the experience necessary to label oneself a programmer, one has likely a &#62;lot&#60; of time on a computer. Whether that computer exists at home or at a school/university, we can already likely assume (especially for the population of "professional" programmers, due to the lesser availability of this necessary resource in past decades and the length of time necessary to become a "professional") that the group we're talking about trends toward the higher income side of the population. That alone would make the group as a whole far more likely to have ever picked up a musical instrument in the first place, let alone to have received the countless hours of necessary instruction.<p>Additionally, I think we can all agree programmers are disproprotionally likely to be homebodies. If one spends a lot of time at home, one has more opportunities for practice.<p>Lastly, if one has the patience and determination necessary to learn enough programming to label oneself a programmer (especially a "professional"), then one is more likely than the rest of the population to have the same patience and determination necessary to learn another skill which requires countless hours of disciplined study-- like music.
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stcredzeroover 15 years ago
Music also goes deeper than pattern matching. Often, it is a game of <i>awareness</i>! A really good musician also becomes aware of complex secondary effects, both in the mix of sounds produced and the effect those sounds have on the emotions and "kinesthetic sympathies" of listeners. (By "kinestheic sympathies" I mean a gut reaction people can have to the physics of movement implied by asymmetries in rhythm. "It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing!")<p>Awesome acoustic musicians are aware of little nuances, and can exploit them to great effect, much as a great chef can bring out a little edge of nuttiness or caramel in a dish that enhances the whole. Sometimes these effects can be stretched out over time, and at 2 or three levels of granularity simultaneously. (The tasty thing you are doing this time through, is also setting up a resonance with something you are doing the next time, which is part of an overall structure of drama and anticipation you're setting up over the whole song.) I've started delving into pop influenced by electronica, and find there are many of these exquisite things in electronic music as well.<p>To bring this back to programming: there is also a game of awareness that can be played while programming. There are may levels of granularity, and many parts coming together in ways one might not yet be aware of. Often, it's bringing such things into awareness that results in that great refactoring.
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Goladusover 15 years ago
Calling yourself a programmer and calling yourself a musician are both fairly easy. I would say a lot of programmers are musicians because a lot of people are musicians. I know a lot of musicians who are not programmers.<p>I think that if you actually look at the most talented musicians in the world, they are probably not programmers either. The amount of dedication it gets to reach the top makes it difficult to do both.
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nermeover 15 years ago
I sing, play guitar, bass, and saxophone, as well as enough drums and keyboards to get by in rock or pop settings.<p>With my current group we've started to use a heavy dosage of Max/MSP for audio and Quartz Composer for visuals... my professional programming experience really helps with creating really good interfaces for the software (not just UI, programmatic interfaces as well), so extending or modifying the software happens at a pace that keeps up with the rest of the band... and being that music is prety much realtime...<p>If you're interested, we've got some demos up... <a href="http://redblueyellow.com" rel="nofollow">http://redblueyellow.com</a><p>Of course I did our website as well... Rails ;)<p>And how many bands have a github account? Sorry, no public repos yet... <a href="http://github.com/redblueyellow" rel="nofollow">http://github.com/redblueyellow</a><p>At one point we had three software developers in the band, but we've slimmed down due to <i>gasp</i>, guys getting jobs in the industry elsewhere (other than SF, I know, right?) and now I'm the lone coder.<p>I'd say I'm about 50/50 when it comes to music... I've had periods where I did it full-time, and I've had periods where I've coded full-time. Right now I'm burning the candle at both ends with a contract job and spending at least 30 hours a week on the band.<p>I know quite a few professional programmers who are also professional or semi-pro/very dedicated musicians.<p>I think there is more to it than mere correlation.<p>And can I say that the 10,000 hour thing is WAY WAY off?<p>I'll put it in musical terms:<p>I started playing the saxophone in 5th grade. I played for 2 years. I switched to guitar. About 4 years ago I picked up a sax because the band I was in needed some horns. After about a week, I was 100 times better than I ever was before. So what happened? Well, I learned more about <i>music</i> in the mean time. I'm sure I could pick up any instrument much, much quicker than someone who has never played any instruments. What am I getting at? Well, a lot of things in life have more than just a passing similarity. They have core fundamentals that are shared. I am completely convinced that this applies to music and software development, although I have no idea why.
scott_sover 15 years ago
Humans are pattern matching machines. I think it's the root of our intelligence - it's certainly necessary for our survival. Basic pattern matching is required to, say, determine what kinds of plants are safe to eat, and to figure out where big game is and to predict where it will be.
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amichailover 15 years ago
Learning to play a musical instrument changes the brain.<p><a href="http://www.articlesbase.com/art-and-entertainment-articles/benefits-of-music-education-456737.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.articlesbase.com/art-and-entertainment-articles/b...</a>
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RyanMcGrealover 15 years ago
I'd be curious to see a poll of HN readers asking how many enjoy/excel at both programming and music.<p>I'll never win any awards for either my code or my compositions, but I love programming and I love playing music (rhythm guitar and drums, mainly).
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pvgover 15 years ago
Unfortunately for the thesis, we have a well-established counterexample.<p><a href="http://www.jwz.org/hacks/why-cooperation-with-rms-is-impossible.mp3" rel="nofollow">http://www.jwz.org/hacks/why-cooperation-with-rms-is-impossi...</a>
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dagwover 15 years ago
What is the basis for claiming programmers are musically talented? I know a number of very talented musicians and a number of very talented programmers, but the overlap between the two is pretty close to zero. Sure I know programmers who can string together a few chords and musicians who can hack together a website in php, but I've never seen anything to make me think that the overlap between programming and playing a musical instrument is any larger or more significant than the overlap between any other profession and playing a musical instrument.
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jpwagnerover 15 years ago
This claim is just a subset of <i>people-who-excel-at-anything-are-able-to-relate-to-excellence-at-anything-else</i>
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