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Neuroscientists find new support for Chomsky’s “internal grammar” thesis

182 pointsby tomparkover 9 years ago

12 comments

MrQuincleover 9 years ago
I think we also have visual grammars. We are surprised if heavy and large objects are on top of light and small objects. We have priors on lighting and shadows, depth and occlusion, inside and outside.<p>We solve these statistically with complex priors and likelihoods. How much you can shove into the prior is the question of universal grammar. That you are born with linguistic priors is I think not so surprising. If they are of the old-fashioned symbolic variety that Chomsky proposes, would be surprising. It&#x27;s way too &quot;clean&quot; for my liking, personal opinion!
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pazimzadehover 9 years ago
&gt; Their results showed that the subjects’ brains distinctly tracked three components of the phrases they heard, reflecting a hierarchy in our neural processing of linguistic structures: words, phrases, and then sentences—at the same time.<p>How are they distinguishing between grammar that&#x27;s encoded in the brain due to &quot;nature&quot; vs grammar that&#x27;s encoded in the brain via &quot;nurture&quot;? I think we all knew that the brain has some mechanism to detect grammar.
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mindcrimeover 9 years ago
This appears to be the paper in question:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;psych.nyu.edu&#x2F;clash&#x2F;dp_papers&#x2F;Ding_nn2015.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;psych.nyu.edu&#x2F;clash&#x2F;dp_papers&#x2F;Ding_nn2015.pdf</a><p>Also, for more background on the idea of the &quot;Universal Grammar&quot;:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_grammar" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Universal_grammar</a>
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kazinatorover 9 years ago
I suspect we have a &quot;grammar&quot; which is based on massively parallel pattern matching over a sequence of symbols of bounded length. (I.e. why we deal with ambiguities well, but not long sentences.)
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yongjikover 9 years ago
&gt; Neuroscientists and psychologists predominantly reject this viewpoint, contending that our comprehension does not result from an internal grammar; rather, it is based on both statistical calculations between words and sound cues to structure.<p>Wait, is this true? There are people who seriously suggest that we don&#x27;t have an innate notion of grammar?
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lorenzhsover 9 years ago
pdf link, because somehow University press releases never contain references to the actual paper: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;psych.nyu.edu&#x2F;clash&#x2F;dp_papers&#x2F;Ding_nn2015.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;psych.nyu.edu&#x2F;clash&#x2F;dp_papers&#x2F;Ding_nn2015.pdf</a>
DrScumpover 9 years ago
HN discussion from 6 months ago upon the 50th anniversary of the theory:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9762001" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9762001</a>
_0ffhover 9 years ago
Well, sooner or later it&#x27;ll turn out it&#x27;s all mostly that we&#x27;re wired to learn grammars; and that we&#x27;re biased towards learning some types of grammars better than others. (I think evidence has been plenty, even before this.)<p>That&#x27;s not quite the same as how some people seem to understand Chomsky, a kind of grab-bag of hardwired grammar rules tucked away in some strand of DNA. But still, there it is.
voidhorseover 9 years ago
As someone who is a fan of the generative grammar tradition, that&#x27;s pretty cool!<p>Going to have to read the full study later, but it sounds like they have some decent results from that press release (though not total evidence for the thesis).<p>Hopefully this finding can contribute toward pushing studies in neuroscience, psychology, and linguistics further.<p>Has some implications for a computational theory of mind too.
palosantoover 9 years ago
&quot;Neuroscientists and psychologists predominantly reject this viewpoint, contending that our comprehension does not result from an internal grammar;&quot;<p>Fascinating article, highly recommended. Not trying to be nitpicky but I&#x27;m going to need a citation or few to support some of the claims made about &quot;neuroscientists and psychologists&quot;... just saying.
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ivan_karamazovover 9 years ago
Math, computation, grammars, are just models, syntax, that we sometimes use to consciously express things about the world. We could assign syntax to a system composed of whatever thing and say that is Turing-complete or that follows the productions A-&gt;B and B-&gt;BB of G_1, an imaginary grammar, just because we can assign to it certain symbols as inputs and others as outputs. Numbers, symbols, don&#x27;t exist in the real world. Math entities only exist as syntax, as human artifacts. They&#x27;re language entities. That&#x27;s why they&#x27;re based on axioms.<p>I don&#x27;t see the point in saying that syntax is physical - I mean, the neurons firing in our brains because of photons getting in our eyes explain how I recognized the shape of a car, not that a &#x27;hypothetical 2D array&#x27; gets &#x27;processed&#x27; with some &#x27;gradient-based algorithm&#x27; unconsciously in our brain. It doesn&#x27;t make biological sense. Turing didn&#x27;t even defined what a symbol or a computation is in terms of Physics, he just made a (very cool and beautiful, by the way) model.<p>Chomsky is simply wrong. He&#x27;s just thinking here that language is suddenly physical, that we have a grammar-processing CPU in our brains, a form of a Universal Turing Machine! Can this number, &#x27;1&#x27;, be physically somewhere in the world, taking in account modern physics and not some weird Platonism? or we just use it as language to refer to physical entities to talk about them? I do think the latter is the truth. Grammars are math entities which we sometimes use to refer to certain things written in books or other spoken things that just happen to have some physical shape in form of sound waves (words) or even to refer to an imaginary entity we&#x27;ve created with math, just like abstract machines. I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s some weird computational thing going on in my head, that&#x27;s just an oxymoron. Just neurons firing, blood being pumped, neurotransmitters being sent, in all its glorious and mysterious nature. The mind, on the other hand, exists as a high-level feature of some parts of the bigger brain system, it&#x27;s caused by real things; that mind that lets us do conscious calculations. But that &#x27;Universal Grammar&#x27; wouldn&#x27;t be inside my mind anyway because it&#x27;s supposed to be unconscious. It wouldn&#x27;t be a feature of the mind-spanning parts of the brain anyway.<p>In the end, it&#x27;s just the whole Nietzschean critique of mistaking language with reality all over again.<p>I cannot recommend John Searle&#x27;s work on the subject enough, like the book &#x27;The Rediscovery Of The Mind&#x27;. He explains all of this way way better than me.<p>P.S: Yes, if you think hard about it, this logically implies that a Strong AI won&#x27;t ever exist. Sorry, Skynet!<p>P.S.2: Sorry for the long post and possible grammatical mistakes, I&#x27;m not a native. And I sincerely hope you enjoyed this post even if you don&#x27;t agree with me. Have a nice day!
PhaseMageover 9 years ago
The study relies on isochronously spoken words!<p>Inside joke: I recently published a network protocol that relies on sending words isochronously between switches.<p>I&#x27;ll take this as validation that I&#x27;m on to something :-)