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My adventures in medical tourism

210 pointsby solutionyogiover 9 years ago

21 comments

clamprechtover 9 years ago
I should mention that Paul Buchheit wants to fund the Uber of medical tourism:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;paultoo&#x2F;status&#x2F;566379518261088258" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;paultoo&#x2F;status&#x2F;566379518261088258</a><p>The tweet: &quot;I want to fund the &#x27;Uber&#x27; of medical tourism Needs 5 star service, simplicity and safety Let me know if you apply - <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ycombinator.com&#x2F;apply&#x2F;&quot;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ycombinator.com&#x2F;apply&#x2F;&quot;</a><p>It really has to happen. Health care in the US is just fucked, and everyone knows it.
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solutionyogiover 9 years ago
I am originally from India and came to the US 10 years ago. I still can&#x27;t believe that you can not call up a doctor&#x2F;clinic&#x2F;hospital in US and get a price quote for something routine.<p>Chris&#x27;s experience is representative of what one can expect from the Indian health care system. If you are a working, middle class person, the free market health care works extremely well.
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JamesBarneyover 9 years ago
It&#x27;s true that healthcare is terrible in the U.S. if you don&#x27;t have health insurance, but he overstates his case. Chris compares a 1 in a 1000 nightmare scenario to his very average experience.<p>A $112,000 error happens in the U.S. but is rare. Typically the type of surgery he mentions costs between $20,000-$50,000. Or 50-100% of a the U.S. gdp per capita. This is smaller than in India where the cost of his surgery was 130% of the Indian gdp per capita.<p>And the issues with rounding errors has to do with the large amount of health insurance in the U.S. not necessarily free market vs. regulation. When the majority of consumption in a market is driven by enterprise customers, the pricing can become strange and very unfriendly to individuals.<p>[0]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pricinghealthcare.com&#x2F;prices&#x2F;IowaCityASC&#x2F;spine-back" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pricinghealthcare.com&#x2F;prices&#x2F;IowaCityASC&#x2F;spine-back</a> [1]<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.backsurgerycost.com&#x2F;how-much-does-a-discectomy-cost&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.backsurgerycost.com&#x2F;how-much-does-a-discectomy-co...</a>
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jkotover 9 years ago
My wife had some complications after pregnancy. UK and Ireland has GP referral system, where single doctor coordinates all specialists. In theory it is good system. But our GP ignored basic symptoms and pushed bullshit like &quot;depression&quot; or &quot;have you tried acupuncture?&quot;. We paid each GP visit, even for saying hi and collecting results, it was obvious GP was just pushing for more visits.<p>This was going on for several months.. Eventually we visited doctor in Athens, the whole thing was diagnosed and solved in weeks. Solution was $2 pill and routine surgery.<p>I really recommend to anyone with some &#x27;mysterious&#x27; health issues to visit REAL doctors.
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Doveover 9 years ago
Cash friendly places are getting more prevalent in the US, but you have to look for them. For example, one of the hospitals in my area publishes this (very sane) price list: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;swedishhospital.com&#x2F;patient-financial&#x2F;?page_name=pricing" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;swedishhospital.com&#x2F;patient-financial&#x2F;?page_name=pric...</a> I go to them. :)<p>There are urgent care centers that are the less-crazy version of ERs, and a lot of primary care stuff can be done self pay. While I have access to insurance through my work, I vastly prefer the quality of the self pay system. You do need to do some research in advance, but there are some pretty cool innovations out there, and services you just can&#x27;t get via the insurance system.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;theselfpaypatient.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;theselfpaypatient.com&#x2F;</a> is a good resource.
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hvmonkover 9 years ago
My understanding is doctors in US are trained to scare you about every possible negative outcomes. I find visiting a doctor here is much much more stressful than doing it in India.<p>For a simple chest pain, doctors here would tell you 145566 possible scenarios that may happen with your body, and wouldn&#x27;t confirm any unless he sees a lab test. And then, a tide of lab tests would start, which will cripple you financially, and emotionally because all you are thinking is which test would be +ve, which -ve; diving on internet where people usually blog about their -ve experiences. Usually, it could be just a muscular pain, etc, which become so irrelevant as you are undergoing all these lab exams.<p>I don&#x27;t want to blame the doctors here as such, because that&#x27;s how they are trained here. I guess it boils down to this robust &quot;suing infrastructure&quot; here, that if you missed out a rare symptom with a patient, he will sue you and finish your career.<p>One thing which I couldn&#x27;t understand is why in a developed country, lab tests are so expensive. An Xray, costs about $100; similar thing costs about Rs 80 (equivalent to $1.25). Shouldn&#x27;t they be cheaper here, given there are gizmos for everything, and all electronics items are much cheaper here than India. I think these costs are all artificial.<p>I think a mix of both approaches (insurance + free market) would better.
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cryoshonover 9 years ago
Yep. Medical tourism exists when the cost of local healthcare is inflated by profit-seeking to flatly unaffordable levels, resulting in grotesque health outcomes and extreme behaviors such as traveling thousands of miles or committing crimes in order to end up in prison for care. I would like to coin a term for this kind of disturbing extreme behavior incentivized by extreme distortion of society: fever spasms. It sounds better in German, so: fieberkrämpfe.<p>Out of pocket price of standard blood panel lab in the USA with a follow up phone call if something is wrong, with insurance: $1500. There is no ability to estimate even vaguely what the price will be beforehand, and the bill may take a month to arrive in the mail. Your insurance agency will fight you at every turn for all but the most mundane routine procedures. There will be a billing error somewhere, and it will be to your detriment. They may refer you to collections if you do not pay the incorrect amount while disputing the charges, as happened to my girlfriend. Face time with the doctor is probably minimal, and you will be stressed by the doctor&#x27;s attempts to hurry you out the door and probably forget to ask important questions.<p>Out of pocket price of extended blood panel lab plus two hours of doctor face to face analysis without insurance in Argentina: $50 USD, and the doctor will speak perfect English. Smartly, the doctor arranges the items on the blood panel before you visit him in the first place. No in-depth discussion of your health can begin before the doctor cannily takes your medical history via a very casual schmooze-sesh which plays out more like old friends catching up. You leave the office relaxed, understanding your health action-items.<p>Where do you think I&#x27;m going to go when I need serious treatment? The US medical system is a failure and an international joke.
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SimpleXYZover 9 years ago
Socialized medicine or a pure capitalistic system would both be preferable to the current system in the US. Right now it&#x27;s the worst of both worlds.
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BryantDover 9 years ago
I&#x27;d recommend doing some more reading on the health care system in India. I believe that it worked really well for the poster; my initial research seems to indicate that there&#x27;s a huge difference between the health care you can get in urban areas of India and the health care you can get if you&#x27;re poor and rural. It&#x27;s easy to build a health care system that works for people with money.<p>The infant mortality rate in India was 38 per 1,000 in 2015. That&#x27;s really not good.
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grecyover 9 years ago
My brother broke his leg horribly in Australia when he was 17. It was the worst break they&#x27;d ever seen at the hospital.<p>Ambulance ride, first surgery. Helicopter ride, second surgery, a month in hospital and third surgery and then another month or so in hospital to ween him off the morphine he had become addicted to, and to get walking again.<p>Of course, there was never a bill.
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geomarkover 9 years ago
My own experience in Thailand is similar to the author&#x27;s in India: see a doctor on short notice, prices quoted in advance, short wait time for surgery, prices low enough to pay out-of-pocket. The icing on the cake is how friendly and warm the medical care is. My biggest fear when I visit the US is that I will get sick or injured and be subject to that awful system. I lived in the US most of my life, had excellent insurance, and had routinely poor experiences with healthcare.
anilgulechaover 9 years ago
My wife is a Dentist in Bangalore, India, and it&#x27;s amazing what I hear. Basically Cost(Flight to india + treatment cost) &lt; Cost(Treatment in US).<p>The more you think about it, the more crazy it seems on multiple levels.<p>Edit, typed &lt; instead of &gt;.
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kra34over 9 years ago
Your treatment in the US would have involved something like 5 doctors, $100,000 billing (probably not payments since those things are only vaguely related) and 2+ years of your time.
tahoeskibumover 9 years ago
One thing I&#x27;ve never understood about the US system is why do the doctors charge more for paying cash e.g. $200 for a visit, whereas insurance reimburses them less than half e.g. $80. In everything else e.g. car repairs, the cash price is always lower than insurance covered price. Any ideas why this is so?
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MistahKoalaover 9 years ago
I wish there was a site like NomadList, but for medical tourism. I&#x27;m up for going further afield for treatment, but the lack of information and good local knowledge makes it riskier than I&#x27;d like.
veritas213over 9 years ago
Cant really speak about orthopedic issues but have had some experience when my partner had cosmetic surgery abroad. Cosmetic surgery makes up a significant chunk of treatments and is much more of art than science. There is no way I would ever risk having surgery anywhere before i knowing all the facts. My partner had a face and neck lift from a &quot;reputable&quot; doctor in Los angeles and honestly looks worse afterward than he did before. About 5 years he became painfully aware that he needed it done again so he went to a well-regarded surgeon in Bangkok that really improved his appearance and cost about half as much. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thaimedicalvacation.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thaimedicalvacation.com</a><p>One interesting thing about her experience was that he was told by the doctor in Thailand that he would not be able to offer a surgical facelift since he already had one 5 years earlier. It was very interesting to see doctors saying no rather than risking poor results with multiple surgeries. A person like Joan Rivers is a good example of what can happen when you have way too many surgeries.<p>Overall though my opinion is that for rare or esoteric conditions, there is no place on earth better than the US. However for common elective or nonelective surgeries, going abroad may not be a bad idea.
pimlottcover 9 years ago
Nice piece, although it&#x27;s a bit misleading to call this &quot;medical tourism&quot; as the author was living in India at the time. Not that it discounts his experience but I&#x27;m sure his local connections and familiarity made it easier than it would be for the average American coming it from abroad.
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xacaxuluover 9 years ago
Having traveled a lot for work, I&#x27;ve had the good fortune to have received care in South Africa, dental work in Serbia and a number of regular treatments in Mexico. I&#x27;m a born and raised US citizen though I also have an EU passport. Any day of the week I&#x27;ll sit on a plane for a few hours and pay less for much better care in another country. Healthcare is a racket here. Better believe when retirement comes I&#x27;m nowhere near the USA.
bambaxover 9 years ago
His symptoms sound very similar to the ones described in the book &quot;The mindbody prescription&quot; by John Sarno.<p>I would very strongly recommend reading that book (which will set you back a whopping $10) before undergoing any back surgery.<p>(I&#x27;m not a doctor, this is not medical advice, YMMV and all that. Still. If you suffer from chronic back pain, or carpal syndrome, read the book.)
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squozzerover 9 years ago
Discussion of cost-effective alternatives is almost pointless now that we have the ACA, which is effectively a transfer of wealth from individuals to insurance companies for the sole privilege of breathing.<p>Oops, forgot at include dying also.
sillyhealthcareover 9 years ago
This post is unrealistic in medicine, and really only works for less serious&#x2F;elective care issues, not primary medicine, or where doctor and location choice actually matters.<p>As a starter: I&#x27;m woman with an extremely strong family history of breast cancer before age 50. Standard clinical guidelines is to start doing heavy monitoring 5-10 years before the youngest person in the family tree was affected, since usually cases get progressively younger start dates. Since one of the people was around age 32, I&#x27;m under the age of 30 and I go for mammograms, ultrasounds, and MRIs every year as if I were a cancer patient already.<p>Mammograms, ultrasounds, CAT Scans, MRIs, (any form of medical imaging radiography) are actually a perfect example of how the market internationally could be more efficient, but it turns out that&#x27;s impossible. At its core we&#x27;re basically talking about photographs, something facebook manages to serve from location a to person b that is nowhere near location a every day. Why couldn&#x27;t I go to any imaging place in the US, and have my images sent to the lowest cost provider somewhere in india to be read and interpreted by a radiologist, and then have the results sent back to me. Unlike Chris, I don&#x27;t even have to meet my doctor, all I have to do is send him images.<p>It turns out that medically this is blatantly difficult if not impossible to do. The reasons are 2 fold<p>1) It turns out that age and variations in how and why the machines that used, as well as technician speciality, matters a ton in image quality.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kevinmd.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2010&#x2F;09&#x2F;mri-places-good-quality-machines-obsolete.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kevinmd.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2010&#x2F;09&#x2F;mri-places-good-quality-...</a><p>As a patient, I have no idea if the price I am being quoted is reflected of image quality or price inflation (and this is before being read)<p>2)Quality of the radiology report is highly dependent on the MD reading the images. This has been well studied since the early 2000s (one of the latest examples being here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pubmed&#x2F;23737538" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pubmed&#x2F;23737538</a> ) At under the age of 50 with dense breasts, I&#x27;m significantly more likely to have imaging misread if I went into a community imaging location, even if they had top notch equipment, because the radiologists do not have enough volume of high risk cases to make sure I am not falling into false positives&#x2F;recall on a regular basis - which would mean even more imaging costs.<p>In order to effectively export my images, I would have to find a way to duplicate part of the specialized cancer wing I go to. Cost savings actually would be minimal - I&#x27;d be running more tests, seeing more doctors, and probably have a delayed diagnosis if&#x2F;when my expected inevitable happens (which means more expensive drugs, longer treatment times, ect)<p>And while my example is specific to me, many people have similar sorts of conditions where treatment location, equipment used, and people involved have higher initial costs but lower lifetime costs for all sorts of conditions. Pretty much any semi-serious disease falls into this category.<p>I&#x27;m game for better ways of paying (insurance does cover this, because as I said, lower lifetime costs to them by paying for preventive care). I experiment with things like telemedicine - I use a compounding pharmacy and Specialized RN over the internet to manage acne that refuses to go away. I&#x27;d totally go to the Caribbean for teeth whitening or LASIK.<p>None of these things need regular, serious followup, or run risks of painful drawn out deaths&#x2F;longer painful medical care with much higher costs if done very incorrectly on a regular basis.<p>Medical tourism isn&#x27;t the answer - understanding what these services are in relationship to risk is.