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What You Believe Affects What You Achieve

428 pointsby pykelloover 9 years ago

30 comments

codeshamanover 9 years ago
I have the book, started reading it about a year ago and stopped halfway, because my bullshit cup got full.<p>The reason I think this book is nicely packaged bullshit is because it presents <i>exceptions</i> as <i>rules</i> and then tries to build a theory out of it.<p>I wish it were as easy as Dr. Dweck describes it, but there are gotchas.<p>I can agree with the distinction of &#x27;fixed&#x27; versus &#x27;growth&#x27; mindsets (although... .. how do you measure that?), but that success is guaranteed if you believe and try... Not necessarily. Ask 9 startup founders out of 10.<p>Not achieving &quot;success&quot; (failing) is rarely free: it leaves emotional and physical scars.. Repeat it a couple of times and you&#x27;re either dead or on your way there.<p>No, success is not guaranteed even if you try many many times times, even if you train a lot and believe a lot.<p>In fact, the <i>rule</i> is this: <i>No matter how hard you try, you might still lose</i>. Sorry about that.<p>And the reason for this is not mindset - the reason is your definition of success. If you try to win at the wrong game, you will probably lose at it. So pick your game wisely.<p>Of course, a fixed mindset will only land you some semi-boring job, a family, a couple of kids and a lot of mainstream entertainment.. I guess that&#x27;s the definition of &quot;failure&quot; these days... But is it ?<p><i></i>*<p>By the way, if you want useful advice about how to be successful in life, Bill Gates is a <i>very bad</i> choice. It might be counterintuitive at first, but think about it ... As a bird, is it smart to fly around with your mouth wide open in order to catch food... because that&#x27;s what the whale does ?
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jonduboisover 9 years ago
I think this is an inversion of cause and effect. The reality is much less inspiring; It&#x27;s &quot;What you achieve affects what you believe&quot; not so much the other way around.<p>I know this for a fact because as I become more sceptical&#x2F;pessimistic over time, my achievements increase. If I was a blind optimist, I would probably fail as soon as reality reared its ugly head.<p>If someone is really lucky throughout their lives, they will have an optimistic view about the world and the people around them.<p>Unfortunate people might find a statement like this offensive because they know for a fact (based on their own experiences) that this isn&#x27;t true - It&#x27;s almost like saying &quot;It&#x27;s your fault for being poor; it&#x27;s all in your head!&quot;.
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shardinatorover 9 years ago
There&#x27;s an important idea I feel is being missed. Something can be true &quot;in distribution&quot; but not true in a &quot;pathwise&quot; sense. That means, over the long run, for most people, on average x is true. But for specific individual and&#x2F;or specific time frame it can be very untrue.<p>Point being I can say to you &quot;adopt a growth mindset&quot;, you do it, but it doesn&#x27;t work and life throws you &#x27;a curve ball&#x27; again and again. Doesn&#x27;t mean my hypothesis was wrong, and doesn&#x27;t mean you didn&#x27;t follow through properly. We can both be right in this case.<p>All it means is, we should act as if our actions&#x2F;thoughts count, but accept it as a fundamental property of the universe that they may not &#x27;bear fruit&#x27;.<p>All we can do is embrace the chaos^<p>^ as in chaotic systems
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thewarriorover 9 years ago
This is a bit late but this should be noted :<p>&quot;Bill Gates: No. I think after the first three or four years, it&#x27;s pretty cast in concrete whether you&#x27;re a good programmer or not. After a few more years, you may know more about managing large projects and personalities, but after three or four years, it&#x27;s clear what you&#x27;re going to be. There&#x27;s no one at Microsoft who was just kind of mediocre for a couple of years, and then just out of the blue started optimizing everything in sight. I can talk to somebody about a program that he&#x27;s written and know right away whether he&#x27;s really a good programmer.&quot;<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.codinghorror.com&#x2F;how-to-become-a-better-programmer-by-not-programming&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.codinghorror.com&#x2F;how-to-become-a-better-programm...</a><p>So Does Bill still believe this or is he a hypocrite in hiding ?
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matthewbauerover 9 years ago
This is interesting in the context of American History. Basically, a majority of settlers were Calvinists. A big part of Calvinist belief was &quot;predestination&quot; which basically holds that a person&#x27;s destiny (heaven or hell) is determined by God before they are born. This would seem to me to reinforce a &quot;fixed mindset&quot;. Paradoxically, out of that same belief system came the &quot;Protestant work ethic&quot; which depending on who you ask made America the greatest country on Earth. I think that one could argue that the &quot;fixed mindset&quot; enabled a sort of wishful thinking attitude: believers though they were predestined so they focused on growth and self improvement over the usual Catholic traditions (which focused on a growth mindset in religious observance while having a more fixed mindset in practical work ethics).
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choxiover 9 years ago
I believe everyone should have a growth mindset, but the paper from Dweck is popularized and interpreted a little too loosely. The stricter interpretation is less compelling:<p><i>In the Bloody Obvious Position, someone can believe success is 90% innate ability and 10% effort. They might also be an Olympian who realizes that at her level, pretty much everyone is at a innate ability ceiling, and a 10% difference is the difference between a gold medal and a last-place finish. So she practices very hard and does just as well as anyone else.</i><p><i>According to the Controversial Position, this athlete will still do worse than someone who believes success is 80% ability and 20% effort, who will in turn do worse than someone who believes success is 70% ability and 30% effort, all the way down to the person who believes success is 0% ability and 100% effort, who will do best of all and take the gold medal.</i><p>It might seem pedantic, but I worry that propagating this loose interpretation will lead to many people believing their positive &quot;growth&quot; attitude, and not years of concentrated practice, is enough to grow.<p>From: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;04&#x2F;10&#x2F;i-will-never-have-the-ability-to-clearly-explain-my-beliefs-about-growth-mindset&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;04&#x2F;10&#x2F;i-will-never-have-the-a...</a>
dev1nover 9 years ago
Gates speaking about the &quot;fixed mindset&quot; vs. &quot;growth mindset&quot; reminds me of this [1] article by Aaron Swartz.<p>[1]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aaronsw.com&#x2F;weblog&#x2F;dweck" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aaronsw.com&#x2F;weblog&#x2F;dweck</a>
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hcarvalhoalvesover 9 years ago
Is this maybe a western cultural bias, that somehow God blesses you with talent and that&#x27;s it? Some residue from aristocracy?<p>When you look at things like Japanese martial arts, it&#x27;s all about learning from someone more experienced and lots of hard work. The limiting factor is your endurance, and the general sentiment is that &quot;if someone learned before me, I can too&quot;.
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karmacondonover 9 years ago
Love this idea, but I do not recommend the book. It&#x27;s clearly a science article that has been stretched into 250 pages. Same idea, repeated repeated repeated.<p>I highly recommend a summary, unless you think you&#x27;ll benefit from reading twenty examples of the same concept. It&#x27;s one of the few books that I started but didn&#x27;t finish this year.
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personlurkingover 9 years ago
&quot;Energy flows where attention goes&quot;<p>Above is another line, like the one in the title. On one hand, it&#x27;s obvious because if you focus your attention, for example, on building a computer, of course your energy goes in that direction. On the other hand, if you don&#x27;t realize your attention (ie, thoughts) is on certain matters, you may be expending energy on that unknowingly. Of course, if you&#x27;re a generalist and your attention goes everywhere, your energy is following suit.
buro9over 9 years ago
I think the same about the language we use.<p>Or rather, I think... &quot;What we hear affects us, and we hear ourselves.&quot;.<p>This is an extension of the &quot;surround yourself with positive people&quot; thing, in that I believe it&#x27;s important to be positive, kind, generous, as the language and tone that we use to express we hear constantly and those words, that tone, shapes our thoughts, mood, aspirations.<p>It&#x27;s important to be mindful and to be the person you want to be. By doing so, we frequently are that person.
Simpover 9 years ago
&gt;When I was visiting with community college students in Arizona, one young man said to me, “I’m one of the people who’s not good at math.” It kills me when I hear that kind of thing. I think about how different things might have been if he had been told consistently “you’re very capable of learning this stuff.”<p>Couldn&#x27;t agree more with this specific example. But you shouldn&#x27;t ignore reality either. A man with no legs is not going to win the 100 meters at the Olympics. Understanding where your potential lies is important for deciding where to invest your effort. That doesn&#x27;t mean he can&#x27;t improve at all though.<p>Especially in things like math, there is a popular belief that you need some kind of &#x27;math gene&#x27; to be decent at it. There is little evidence that there are math specific genes beyond general learning ability.<p>[Same genes &#x27;drive maths and reading ability&#x27;] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;health-28211676" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;health-28211676</a><p>Sadly, in a lot of cases this will lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy where you will stop trying to improve your math skills because you weren&#x27;t &quot;made for it&quot;.<p>But that&#x27;s really more a problem of a false belief that these things are set from birth. A blind belief in &#x27;I can do anything i want despite the situation or environment i am in!&#x27; isn&#x27;t going to help anyone. I would advise the runner with no legs to invest his precious time and resources in something other than trying to win the 100 meters at the Olympics.
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devonkimover 9 years ago
You know what&#x27;s worse than thinking you&#x27;re not capable? Others telling you you&#x27;re capable and despite your best efforts you fail to meet these expectations whether those reasons are within your control or not. This is putting a carrot on a stick in front of a lot of kids potentially and saying &quot;you just need to believe you can do this and try real hard, gosh anyone can do it!&quot;<p>Expecting a person with severe learning disabilities that they can go work at a top HFT shop or a paraplegic that they&#x27;ll be able to beat the world record for a 100 meter dash is the kind of goalpost that is being set for many children that are born disadvantaged. Bill Gates may have been studying what keeps the world&#x27;s poor the way they are for a long time but there are a lot more factors that keep people down than just simply motivation.<p>Part of why I haven&#x27;t started a company yet is out of fear of kind of literally destroying my life and others around me. The sheer amount of work that you put into a company is one thing, and not having the closest people you know be supportive of the work you do puts you into a position where you must either be so secure that failure is not a problem or that you must succeed on a first try.<p>Reid Hoffman&#x27;s tips on when you <i>DON&#x27;T</i> want to start a company come to mind. Some of those criteria include &quot;if you cannot get another job&quot; or &quot;you will put yourself in harm&#x27;s way by doing so&quot; (paraphrased, can&#x27;t find the slides he had). So for the poor, despite having not much to lose in theory, they do have everything to lose in that their lives are all they can give up in the absence of capital or remarkable domain knowledge &#x2F; skill advantages. Risk tolerance for the poor is actually very low thusly.
jgordover 9 years ago
The central idea seems so important, with so much benefit to education if it were true, that it would justify a large scale rigorous experiment [ just as a new kind of promising medicine would be trialed over a wide sample ]<p>Maybe schooling is stuck in a local maximum, because we don&#x27;t do things like this, because its not socially acceptable to &#x27;experiment with our childrens education&#x27; ?
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knownover 9 years ago
There is no intrinsic motivation. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;researchnews.osu.edu&#x2F;archive&#x2F;inmotiv.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;researchnews.osu.edu&#x2F;archive&#x2F;inmotiv.htm</a>
shin_laoover 9 years ago
Another way to view it is that the biggest limits in your life are the ones you set.<p>I&#x27;m perfectly aware that some people start with huge disadvantages in life, but whatever your starting point, you can end up much higher. Never let anyone tell you otherwise.
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dmichulkeover 9 years ago
<i>If you don&#x27;t fail 90% of the time, you&#x27;re not aiming high enough</i> Alan Kay
jqmover 9 years ago
Ya, but... are some people more genetically predisposed to have growth mindset? :)
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huuuover 9 years ago
I did not read the book, but I think the book is not about becomming succesful but about getting to know your potential. Success and potential are related&#x2F;connected but there is a huge difference.<p>Being able to help out your neighbor isn&#x27;t connected to success in our society. I think a lot of posters in this thread don&#x27;t realize the destinction between potential and success.
metafunctorover 9 years ago
Also, take this to the second derivative. You can learn to learn faster and more efficiently. You can set yourself up for success. You can start small, and gain momentum from there. You can learn to hack your motivation.<p>Will this guarantee success and a happy life? Of course not. But it will greatly increase your chances.
NumberCruncherover 9 years ago
I think it is easy to praise growth mindset if you are the one who wants to learn and wants to get better through failing. But what about the other side of the coin?<p>Just imagine you are a teamlead and one guy in your team tells you &quot;hey, I have found 2 new ways how not to impelent Feature X. May I work on feature Y and use the knowledge I gained fucking up feature X?&quot;<p>Or you have a project team and the profect manager tells you &quot;Hey, I found one new way how not to manage a project, how not to deliver on time and how not to motivate people. May I manage your next project and maybe waste an other million dollars?&quot;<p>In my experience situations like these end badly...
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hv23over 9 years ago
There was a good episode on the podcast &quot;Invisibilia&quot; discussing this topic of expectations influencing&#x2F;shaping reality: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thisamericanlife.org&#x2F;radio-archives&#x2F;episode&#x2F;544&#x2F;batman" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thisamericanlife.org&#x2F;radio-archives&#x2F;episode&#x2F;544&#x2F;b...</a>. Some pretty fascinating stories in this one; well worth a listen! I believe Dweck is referenced&#x2F;interviewed early on in the episode.
popeeover 9 years ago
I only know that if you have strong Will you can achieve many things. Personally, the difference between Wish and Will is when you decide to achieve what you wish.
_navaneethanover 9 years ago
The same thing [Derek Sivers] explains with amusement:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pYTN7yVYbeg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pYTN7yVYbeg</a><p>Fortunately, yesterday night I was listening it.<p>[Derek Sivers](<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sivers.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sivers.org&#x2F;</a>)
tcannonover 9 years ago
Interesting contrast, stories like this compared to the stories about how everyone who is successful feels like they are a fraud.<p>Maybe my study will be of note: If you believe headlines, you should read more.
jaseyover 9 years ago
Mindset is <i></i>everything<i></i> (at-least extremely important for any level of success in entrepreneurship and most other things)<p>Most entrepreneurs solving ambitious problems look crazy to outsiders. Hence the famous Steve Jobs quote<p>&quot;The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.&quot;<p>Look at what the Gates, Jobs and Musks of this world have achieved with their &#x27;anything-is-possible&#x27; mindsets..<p>Btw, for those who are interested in this stuff I&#x27;ve created an app to help people develop a growth&#x2F;positive mindset at <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;positivethinking.net" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;positivethinking.net</a>
gesmanover 9 years ago
Well, if you read title, then you can safely skip the rest of it.<p>It&#x27;s a good summary of an essence :)
god_bless_texasover 9 years ago
Takeaway from this: I&#x27;m imagining Bill Gates practicing his fadeaway jumpers.
devinheltonover 9 years ago
Can someone explain to me what claim Dr. Dweck has demonstrated that is both novel and true? I have read a bunch of articles about her work, but it all seems to me like she has framed &quot;growth mindset&quot; against a strawman.<p>It seems blindingly obvious to me that ability in most fields is a function of both genes and effort. Genes shape how fast you improve with effort, and where you plateau. Genes shape the curve of the achievement-to-effort graph. Effort determines where you are on that curve. Effort determines how much of your potential you actualize. This dynamic is true in basketball, math, golf, painting, speech-making, guitar playing and virtually every other complicated human endeavor.<p>Some people need to be told, &quot;You have are naturally gifted in this field, stop being so hard on people who are not as good as you, they are doing the best they can.&quot;<p>Some people need to be told, &quot;You are naturally gifted in this area. You have a responsibility to work extra hard in order to maximize your gifts. If you work your butt off, you have the potential to be truly special.&quot;<p>Some people need to be told, &quot;This stuff might not come as naturally to you. You&#x27;re going to have to work extra hard to keep up.&quot;<p>Some people need to be told, &quot;Look you have been practicing harder than anyone, and honestly, I just don&#x27;t think you have the raw talent to be a professional in this field. You can do it for fun, but be realistic about your career choices.&quot;<p>Some people need to be told, &quot;Look you can&#x27;t say you are bad at painting&#x2F;writing&#x2F;music&#x2F;math&#x2F;etc. You haven&#x27;t even tried to learn it. This stuff is not natural for most people, there are books and youtube videos that can show you how to do it. You need to build step-by-step. Practice one technique until it is in mental memory and then add more complexity. Unless you&#x27;re mozart, you don&#x27;t just start from day one being able to produce great stuff.&quot;<p>It seems that as a culture, there are mistakes in messaging going both ways. For example, the premise of the &quot;No Child Left Behind&quot; education law was silly. There is in fact a bell curve with regards to natural academic aptitude. For instance, if you are in the bottom ~20% of that curve, it is nearly impossible to learn algebra. ( for some articles from a real teacher who is trying to teach algebra in the field, read: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;educationrealist.wordpress.com&#x2F;2012&#x2F;08&#x2F;19&#x2F;algebra-and-the-pointlessness-of-the-whole-damn-thing&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;educationrealist.wordpress.com&#x2F;2012&#x2F;08&#x2F;19&#x2F;algebra-an...</a> and <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;educationrealist.wordpress.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;10&#x2F;31&#x2F;noahpinion-on-iq-or-maybe-just-no-knowledge&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;educationrealist.wordpress.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;10&#x2F;31&#x2F;noahpinion...</a> ). Someone in the middle of the bell curve can learn algebra, but if they try to go into a career that involves advanced quantitative or logical skills, they will be competing against those who both have a natural aptitude and an economic incentive to try hard. The person with normal aptitude will likely lose that competition. So it might not be good advice to tell that person to double-down on math, even if they could make themselves better.<p>On the other hand, I hear a lot of smart friends say stuff like, &quot;I&#x27;m just bad at math&quot; or &quot;I&#x27;m just bad at painting.&quot; In many cases, they never had good teaching, or they never tackled the problem aggressively. They never tried to learn incrementally, by building muscle memory on a simple technique and then adding more complications. They started with the hard stuff, and when it did not work, they just assumed they were bad at it. For people like that, a &quot;growth mindset&quot; can be helpful.<p>All of this should be pretty darn obvious. I don&#x27;t really gather what new, credible information Dweck is adding to our understanding of how learning, motivation, and achievement works.
xyzzy4over 9 years ago
Well the problem with the growth mindset is that ultimately you die, so your growth does a nosedive eventually.<p>If something excites or intrigues you, then do it. But don&#x27;t delude yourself that your personal growth really matters.
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