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Ask HN: A competitor stole my iPhone app content — what should I do?

88 pointsby Padraigover 15 years ago

25 comments

buro9over 15 years ago
You're in Europe, you are protected. The database is copyrighted whilst the data isn't itself copyrightable. It is when the act of compiling the data is non-trivial and you can show that the data has resulted from this process (which you appear to be able to given that you have used names and entered routes in a way specific to your process) that you are covered.<p>I'd start off with talking to him. His website <a href="http://www.philipkirwan.ie/site/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.philipkirwan.ie/site/index.html</a> states that he's doing an undergrad at Dublin City University, which no doubt includes lessons in the social aspect of computing including Copyright, Patents and Data Protection, etc.<p>My points: He will be well aware of copyright, and the institution really does not want to bring itself into disrepute as a result of the actions of their students. It would not do his study well at all to provable have stolen the work of someone else having been made very well aware of copyright during prior study. The question raised, "Is all of Philip Kirwin's work his own work?". And that for a university, and for Philip himself is a very big deal.<p>So I'd simply appeal to his own sense of self-preservation in that if he has indeed (as it appears) taken the content from your work and passed it off as his own then he is playing with fire that will burn him far greater than just losing the right to sell one iPhone application.<p>At this point, he's already potentially damaged his reputation through his actions, now it is up to him to determine whether he wants to salvage this or risk burning himself totally.
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andywarover 15 years ago
I guess one obvious question is do you have permission from the Dublin Bus company to use their data yourself? From their T&#38;Cs (<a href="http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Legal/" rel="nofollow">http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Legal/</a>) ‘No part of this website may be copied, performed in public, broadcast or adapted without the prior written consent of Córas Iompair Éireann. All rights on this material are reserved.‘ Your own ‘scraping’ of the data is itself legally questionable.
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blantonlover 15 years ago
I think a lot of folks are missing the point of this blog post, and that is the App Store ecosystem has turned into the wild-wild west of development. I've never seen anything like how bad it has gotten.<p>In my case, I run a Web services platform that approximately 10 or so iPhone app developers have licensed and coded applications to. In the beginning, there was only one app that used our services and it became a top-10 paid app. Within weeks I found there were 6 or so apps that sprouted up in the App Store with similar names, exact functionality, yet they were not licensed to use our API and content.<p>The common thread? They stole the original app's SQLite database, repackaged the interface, and off they went. We blocked these apps from using our platform until they were licensed, but to this day I weekly see apps sprout up that are following the same nefarious business practice. They steal content from a popular innovative app, repackage as their own, and throw it to the masses for the quick buck.<p>It is disgusting ecosystem. I'd be willing to bet that 80% of the app store content and market is teams stealing and repackaging the 20% of actual true innovation that is occurring.
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flashingpumpkinover 15 years ago
Obviously the guy knew that he's onto something shady. Why else would someone name an sqlite database .png2?<p>Can't give you any legal advice though. I reckon you should go after what others recommend here.
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viaeover 15 years ago
Don't waste your time on legal action on this iphone app. Yes, notify Apple and publicize it. But, your energy is better spent innovating and hacking. While screen-scraping is hard work it doesn't bring success and other good programmers can re-implement your work without stealing it. Hell, this might be a good opportunity to open source your screen scraper. Publicize it so that others will collaborate on improving it. Then you can focus on more interesting work. Data gathering is hard work, more people doing it make it easier.<p>What can you do with your app that isn't so easily stolen (and reproduced) and turned into a carbon copy? As you've already seen, public transit apps are a dime a dozen. How about a bigger/better itinerary application that includes trains, planes, and automobile times so that one can put an itinerary together of vacation travel across all of Ireland? Add hotel info, confirmation info, etc, etc, etc...<p>I don't have the links handy put there have been other articles on HN about lessons from stolen work. Big lesson: it rarely matters because the people stealing ideas and work don't have the skillset to do it themselves. In the long term they can't compete with the new features and directions that you'll go.<p>What I'm trying to say is, use that energy from your anger to create something f<i>cking awesome that that stupid muppet</i> won't be able to compete with.<p>* I'm from the US. Yesterday, I learned about the use of the word muppet over on that side of the pond. BRILLIANT!
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bensummersover 15 years ago
Check out "Database rights".<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_right" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_right</a><p>In the EU, while the data itself may not be copyrightable, the act of compiling it into a usable database makes the database defensible.
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haastedover 15 years ago
Map makers often add a bit of erroneous information to their maps, which allows them to detect when competitors copy their data outright. A similar approach seems applicable to this kind of application.
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jerguismiover 15 years ago
File a complaint to Apple, it may work.
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gabrielrothover 15 years ago
In future versions you might include made-up data for a nonexistent bus line, in the same way that cartography companies include nonexistent streets on maps. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street</a>
Luytover 15 years ago
Have you considered encrypting your database, so that only your app can make sense of it? That's what a friend of mine used to do, and it indeed stopped some superficial copying.
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JunkDNAover 15 years ago
I think once you have sent him a forceful note or two asking him to back off, I would probably drop it. If you want to try and drum up some publicity over it on some other blogs, you might be able to make some headway. But I wouldn't expend lots of energy on him. This sort of thing is akin to people who have their blogs stolen and mirrored by SEO sites using their RSS feeds. You can spend all infinte time and energy chasing after people like this. Alternatively, you can use that same time and energy making new apps and improving existing ones.<p>I haven't looked at both apps, but I would venture to guess that someone who is cutting corners by stealing from other people is probably also not spending a whole lot of time on design, polish, and user experience. Those are things that are hard to copy effectively and a place where you can set yourself apart.
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acangianoover 15 years ago
This Philip Kirwan is a real class act: <a href="http://www.philipkirwan.ie/site/android.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.philipkirwan.ie/site/android.html</a>
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tjicover 15 years ago
Raw data isn't copyrightable, at least here in the US.<p>It is perfectly legal to go through a phone book and copy it.
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Tichyover 15 years ago
I discovered today that I have a similar problem, even though I don't even have an iPhone app: someone copied graphics from my web site for his iPhone app.<p>So far I have contacted apple and the designer of the graphics to clarify the rights (designers provided the graphics but I don't know where they are from). Not thrilled, but I can't imagine just letting that person get away with it.<p>Although what the other comment said certainly applies: the quality of the ripped off app seems rather low. He uses some of my icons, but the rest of it looks ugly.<p>Anyway, would be curious to hear how your story unfolds.
nymover 15 years ago
The guy's twitter handle is @fluter, as <a href="http://twitter.com/fluter" rel="nofollow">http://twitter.com/fluter</a> ... hope he shares light on his side of the story. Also I'd like to see a diff on the databases.
thinkbohemianover 15 years ago
Artistic works have a "natural" copyright. (in the united states anyway). You could potentially argue that the schema of your database was a geeky but artistic work. (Layout of data structure, naming of tables etc.) or maybe some other feature of your app.<p>Anyone with some legal background agree, disagree??
pclarkover 15 years ago
techcrunch europe would be all over this. You should reach out to Mike Butcher (@mikebutcher) and chat to him.
duranaover 15 years ago
Does anyone know how iPhone apps are licensed? If this Philip guy bought the app and the database was included with it, are there any terms that say he can't do whatever he wants with the database (e.g., use it for his own app)?
medianamaover 15 years ago
I have observed most such issues get resolved after sending a threatening mail
Padraigover 15 years ago
We worked it out:<p><a href="http://padraig.tumblr.com/post/355936709/resolved" rel="nofollow">http://padraig.tumblr.com/post/355936709/resolved</a>
orblivionover 15 years ago
Maybe avoid getting law involved and see if Apple has a way to arbitrate this sort of thing?
sfallover 15 years ago
it's not that the information that is being stored but rather that the method and some user choices and UI are the same
anonjonover 15 years ago
Do nothing? This isn't worth it.<p>Spend your time/money making an application that isn't so easily duplicated. You said it yourself that you weren't planning to make a mint on this. No point in dealing with the hassle of lawyers, paying the lawyers etc.<p>If you only had one competitor, it would be possible, but being that you have five competitors, and some of them are free, I'd have to say that the market is saturated and its time to get out anyway.
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Nassratover 15 years ago
Cheers mate, you got ripped off, that's why I embrace open source.<p>You should only blame yourself though, you could have had a simple crypt on the db, with a key stored inside the binary. At least it would take a bit more work to rip you off.<p>I would suggest you go ahead and release your database to the public. The one thing you have that they do not is that you still have your scraper script(s). If it was me, I would create a (restful) web service that allows anyone to utilize your data, moreover, allow people (maybe with a nominal fee) to download the entire database, or if you really wanna get into it, implement keys (kinda like google maps) to access you bus timetable api.
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stevooover 15 years ago
Basicly you should have done this from the start.<p>Since you know that you will not have a profit , why didnt you add the app free and add commercials to it.<p>That way yours will be free and there will be no need for anyone to copy it and at the same time have some profit from ads.