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My positive experience as a woman in tech

520 pointsby sebkomianosover 9 years ago

34 comments

indifferentalexover 9 years ago
10&#x2F;10 Will read again.<p>The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it&#x27;s effectiveness.<p>Lea Verou (the author of the article) perfectly explains that even though there is undoubtedly a problem, a problem whose degree is not&#x2F;can not be calculated (she also indirectly, simply by not giving it more article-time, makes us understand that the lack of statistics doesn&#x27;t mean this problem doesn&#x27;t exist or should not be resolved), this problem can and has already been solved, not by company policies or special rules, but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, and amazingly across all mindsets and ways of thinking this rule means, for anyone beginning from the wee age that they understand what those words mean, that one should be treated in a way that is free of bias, fair and rational.<p>I will read this article again, and I will recommend it to friends and acquaintances and family, because sexism is a problem beyond tech too (in certain industries it might be an even bigger problem). I think this article and hopefully ones like it that either exist already that I do not know of, or ones that will be written afterwards, are a great way to make us realise that all people should be treated the way that we want to be treated, and I truly believe that will be enough to fix the problem of &quot;women in tech&quot;.
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golergkaover 9 years ago
&gt; It’s impossible to know, especially since they don’t know either! If you confront them on their sexism, they will deny all of it, and truly believe it. It takes a lot of introspection to see one’s internalized stereotypes. Therefore, a lot of the time, you cannot be sure if you have experienced sexist behavior, and there is no way to find out for sure, since the perpetrator doesn’t know either. There are many false positives and false negatives there.<p>Thousand times this.<p>I know that things like racism and sexism is bad and evil. But I also know that I am these things — subconsciously. Having lived in a country with a long tradition of racism and sexism, and given I&#x27;ve ever talked to a black person for a first time half a year ago, I know that there&#x27;s no chance that I don&#x27;t have these stereotypes inside on some level. Of course, I try to fight that and become a better person, and on a rational level I know exactly why these traits are evil.<p>But when I&#x27;m trying to explain it to someone, too often they just hear &quot;I&#x27;m racist&quot; or &quot;I&#x27;m sexist&quot; and decide that I&#x27;m a total asshole :(
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cubanoover 9 years ago
Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes...<p>If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered &quot;cute&quot;, &quot;flirtatious&quot;, and&#x2F;or &quot;interesting&quot;.<p>If not, <i>the same actions</i> are often considered &quot;creepy&quot;, &quot;jerkish&quot;, and yes even &quot;sexist&quot;.<p>I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in such a vastly different, sexually charged environment (I&#x27;m watching it happen with my 13 year old daughter right now) as guys do, it is, of course, impossible for me to understand all the nuance.<p>Just my anecdotal thoughts on it...btw it is good to see this woman make an attempt to address the issue.
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glovesover 9 years ago
&gt; <i>&quot;when no positive stories get out, the overall picture painted is bleak, which could scare even more women away.&quot;</i><p>In a world where there is so much bad press and news, it is nice to read something from the other side. Refreshing and encouraging.
ZeroGravitasover 9 years ago
&gt; <i>&quot;Ironically, one of the very few times I have experienced any sexism in the industry was when a dude was trying to be nice to me.&quot;</i><p>I&#x27;m not sure how ironic this is. It seems to be setting up a straw man of sexist behaviour being the domain of moustache-twirling villians, rather than something that often perfectly normal men and women inflict on each other and experience unwanted outcomes of because of their culture and the structures of the society they grew up in.
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SCHiMover 9 years ago
Keep in mind that the situation she recalls, the one with the guy that apologizes to her for cussing, is perhaps not the sort of sexism you would want to try and get rid of.<p>The way I see it, this coming from a early 20s male (read, shall we say, constantly aware of the opposing sex), is that that attempt to be polite to a woman has nothing to do with her being a woman in tech, but simply being a woman in a social situation.<p>I guess what I&#x27;m trying to say is that it&#x27;s pretty normal for a guy&#x2F;girl to alter his&#x2F;her behaviour when in a social situation with a member of sex he&#x2F;she&#x27;s interested in. Eveb uf the situation in question is supposed to be 100% platonic and&#x2F;or work related. There is a limit, of course, to how far we can&#x2F;should excuse this behaviour in people. But I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s fair to stomp on people when they behave different within limits.<p>Because you _are_ a woman, and it _does_ make a difference, but obviously not in the sense that you&#x27;d be any more&#x2F;less competent because of your gender.
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kelukelugamesover 9 years ago
&gt;I would rather not call out sexist behavior ten times, than wrongly accuse someone of it once.<p>Story time!<p>An admin at work complimented me for having a cute girlfriend. Two of the younger women claimed that objectified women. On the other extreme, the CEO made jokes in the hallway about having sex with other people&#x27;s wives, but no one ever complained.<p>Sexism from management is too often ignored. I suspect people rather nitpick minor issues with peers and subordinates then tackle real problems against people in power.
michaelwwwover 9 years ago
Some people command respect, others get respect without asking because they deserve it, some are ignored one way or the other, being kind of neutral persons, and some get disrespect for a lot of little things they are not aware of, and some get outright scorn because they deserve it and know it. This has nothing to with gender.<p>As a male, I&#x27;ve always tried to be someone who deserved respect. My first impression of Lea Verou is that she deserves respect and possibly something in her bearing gives off the impression that she commands it (that last part is pure speculation to make my point.)<p>I&#x27;ve noticed a lot of complainers of either gender aren&#x27;t getting respect for the little things they are not very conscious of (and this is another reason for the disrespect - little self-awareness,) things like being late, doing sloppy work, gossiping, being greedy or careless with common resources, making inappropriate comments, and so on. I&#x27;m not saying there isn&#x27;t gender discrimination, but I feel there are other factors that should be considered as well.
hahamrfunnyguyover 9 years ago
Glad to hear the positive side of this. I can&#x27;t say I&#x27;ve encountered any negative behavior in the course of my career that I would consider sexism.<p>I typically avoid crude humor and innuendo in the workplace because it&#x27;s impossible to know who is going to get offended. That said, I wouldn&#x27;t be surprised if I was more even more cautious around women lest something be construed as harassment.
sonabinuover 9 years ago
There are definitely good experiences. I think the problem is when management pretends they did not hear something. I remember another female colleague (absent at the meeting) being referred to as a &#x27;chick&#x27; and the other men laughing it off. It was a very bad experience. Being the only woman in the room, I did not speak up but I wish I did.
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pervycreeperover 9 years ago
Blackstone&#x27;s formulation for those who didn&#x27;t bother to click through:<p>&gt;&quot;It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer&quot;<p>Wise to keep this in mind if you wish to be justice-conscious.
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jenshoopover 9 years ago
This is one narrative in an overall spectrum of experiences. Important not to sidebar someone&#x27;s very real experience or assume every &quot;woman in tech&quot; goes through the same thing, so I welcome the introduction of a new perspective that runs against the grain a bit. I wonder if this was prompted by a well-intentioned friend asking &quot;what it&#x27;s like to be a female in tech these days&quot;? This is a question I get frequently and I&#x27;m just sort of at a loss as to what to say -- I see a lot of problems with the lack of diversity especially at the senior leadership level and have been through my fair share of negative experiences, but I&#x27;ve also been fortunate to have insane mentors -- male and female (well, if I&#x27;m keeping score, more male than female) -- to help me progress, learn, develop. For me, and maybe this is fraught with its own issues, I&#x27;ve always just sought to prove myself, demonstrate my value by working hard, and earn respect that way. Few people -- male or female -- can hold you in poor esteem if you constantly work to be an ethical, industrious team-player.
anc84over 9 years ago
&gt; Stories like mine should become the norm, not the exception.<p>We don&#x27;t know if that is not the case already. The echo chamber is powerful and viral.<p>A great post, thank you!
exodustover 9 years ago
Now we just need a &quot;neutral experience as a woman in tech&quot; piece and we&#x27;ll have discussed the full spectrum of this topic.<p>I didn&#x27;t read the article. When someone has a positive experience in tech &quot;as a woman&quot;, that is the norm. I don&#x27;t subscribe to that being noteworthy, regardless of the campaigns insisting otherwise.<p>maybe some stories about nasty manipulative women in tech should be shared. Or not. Bad vibes and all, who needs bad vibes. I worked with a backstabbing IT exec woman in a previous job. Piece of work she was... Won&#x27;t go into it of course but sometimes people just suck. Male or female.<p>The danger is that poor performance can be insulated by the distraction of over sensitivity to the &quot;women in tech&quot; issue that&#x27;s memed at campaign levels.
ionforceover 9 years ago
I had the pleasure of attending one of her talks at a conference and she was one of the more entertaining, engaged, and articulate speakers there.<p>Glad to have come across her work again here!
dajohnson89over 9 years ago
She had me until the very end, with the anecdote about the guy apologizing for swearing in front of her.<p>I would apologize if I said &quot;fuck&quot; near my country&#x27;s president, or even the president of my small-ish company. Both of whom are male. It&#x27;s a sign of respect. In the context of women, I see it in a similar light to holding the door open for a lady. It isn&#x27;t me assuming she&#x27;s too weak to open a door, it&#x27;s just a common courtesy.<p>I&#x27;m genuinely sorry that the author was offended by the guy apologizing for saying &quot;fuck&quot; near her. I can&#x27;t speak for him, and perhaps he was a total douchebag. But perhaps he was aware that on average men can be more crude than women, and in a professional (male-dominated, numerically speaking!) setting like that one, it&#x27;s prudent to avoid language that could make people feel uncomfortable.
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danr4over 9 years ago
&gt;&quot;<i>It takes a lot of introspection to see one’s internalized stereotypes.</i>&quot;<p>I think she hit spot on with this - But that bit was directed at men, when the reality is that it goes both ways.<p>The problem is that it&#x27;s a cycle hard to break from - it&#x27;s not just men being sexist, it&#x27;s women being unconsciously sexist towards themselves because they grew up in a sexist environment.<p>That&#x27;s why you need to raise awareness, to make men AND women more aware of their thoughts and actions which they did not know were a result of sexism. Gotta break the pattern.
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kohitoover 9 years ago
I think the reason the overall picture painted of women in tech is bleak because the typical experience of being a woman in the tech industry is bleak. Women are scared away from tech by their experience in tech, not by tech&#x27;s reputation, so I&#x27;m not surprised there aren&#x27;t more Lea&#x27;s out there.<p>Women who quit the tech industry (56%) do so at a significantly higher rate than they do in science (47%) and engineering (39%) (&quot;HBR Research Report: The Athena Factor:Reversing the Brain Drain in Science, Engineering, and Technology&quot; -- and I&#x27;ll add that the report is good about addressing why childcare and the heavy workloads don&#x27;t entirely account for the quit rate.)<p>Quit rates in the industry shouldn&#x27;t be higher than other STEM industries. Even if you grant a pipeline problem, in which case sharing positive stories about women in tech improves the situation, once women are involved, positive stories can&#x27;t impact how they are treated. The quit rate suggests it&#x27;s a worse situation for women than in similar industries.<p>One commenter here suggests Lea&#x27;s case shows nothing needs to change, which is odd, since Lea doesn&#x27;t say that. It&#x27;s also odd that this commenter suggests rule changes addressing inadequacies ought to be characterized as &quot;special rules&quot; -- special changes to fundamentally sound policy -- instead of &quot;better policy&quot; -- fundamental changes to flawed policies, policies demonstrated to be flawed by their unfair and differential impact on women.<p>Nonetheless, it is great Lea has had a positive experience. I am glad she shared it.
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vinceguidryover 9 years ago
&gt; It takes a lot of introspection to see one’s internalized stereotypes. Therefore, a lot of the time, you cannot be sure if you have experienced sexist behavior, and there is no way to find out for sure, since the perpetrator doesn’t know either.<p>I had the thought today that the sexism debate is actually a war, but it&#x27;s not a war fought by humans against other humans. It&#x27;s fought by groups of neurons against other groups of neurons, our conscious minds are just pawns.<p>Many times, those groups of neurons war inside the same person&#x27;s brain. Biological warfare is fierce.
JDiculousover 9 years ago
Thank you for writing this, this was a much needed post that sheds light on the other side of the story that you never hear about.
ljw1001over 9 years ago
thank you
reitanqildover 9 years ago
Don&#x27;t see why this was flagged. It us a well known fact that a lot of women thrive in tech.<p>I&#x27;ve said this to many times already but I&#x27;ve been told by women how much they enjoy working with men because we are so straightforward.<p>Edit: that said, didn&#x27;t vote at all on this one, but flagged to death? No.
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sktrdieover 9 years ago
Am I the only one who thinks &quot;sexism&quot; is overrated? It&#x27;s misinterpreted by so many and I&#x27;m not sure I understand what it means most of the time. I think humans are prejudice about so many things that it&#x27;s hard to keep track and &quot;give a name&quot; to every single prejudice. Obviously &quot;sex&quot; does set us apart much more strongly than, say, race, or probably any other thing, so I really find it normal that there are stereotypes and prejudices about &quot;sex&quot; specifically.<p>Obviously there&#x27;s a problem if your stereotype, whichever it may be, becomes offensive and disrespectful. But I mean -- &quot; I noticed for the first time that day that I was the only woman in the room. His effort to be courteous made me feel that I was different, the odd one out&quot; -- there&#x27;s no way you can label this &quot;sexist&quot;. It&#x27;s just a dude who probably thinks a girl is cute and is therefore a little awkward around said person.<p>I guess what I&#x27;m trying to say is that labels can mean different things to different people and I really hate using them to express my specific situation.
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FussyZeusover 9 years ago
Personally I&#x27;ve only ever witnessed sexism at play in larger companies, startup culture by it&#x27;s nature I think is anti-sexist, the highly competitive market for employees combined with the sense of &quot;who gives a shit about genders, we gotta get this thing fixed NOW&quot; kind of makes it a defacto meritocracy.<p>Not to say that it can&#x27;t happen in startups of course, just saying in the Perfect World, a startup culture would eliminate it before it even had a chance to take foothold.
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anon4over 9 years ago
Interesting. I was actually expecting a blank page.
Kenjiover 9 years ago
As a man, I&#x27;m really glad to read things like that. You know, the sexism problem makes both sexes feel bad. I think it is really important for our society in general that we don&#x27;t let differences like sex get between us. It&#x27;s silly and petty.
silentplummetover 9 years ago
This is fair, but let&#x27;s recognize that the discussion takes place in the context of a few well known individuals who have made an enviably successful career as freelance victims, who stridently prevaricate about the persecution they&#x27;ve experienced in the industry, but by all accounts don&#x27;t actually do any work on technology at all.<p>One wrote a story for a mediocre video game and claims publicly to be a game developer. Is she a &#x27;woman in tech&#x27;? It&#x27;s like if I painted a mural on a house during construction this one time and went on claiming a career in carpentry. But don&#x27;t you dare claim I&#x27;m not legitimately a carpenter, because hey, stop persecuting me!<p>The dichotomy isn&#x27;t false, it&#x27;s quite real and true, and it seems obvious to me that there are a handful of lamentably visible charlatans who are to blame for it. On the other hand, I could list dozens of women in the industry whose output I greatly respect and they seem to experience great success, but you never hear a peep out of them. It&#x27;s almost like the more &quot;tangentially involved&quot; one is with tech, the more vocal one becomes about this supposed persecution...
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tompover 9 years ago
That&#x27;s the general theme of public discourse... Americans killing Muslims in Iraq are &quot;soldiers&quot;, wherears Muslims killing Americans in the US are &quot;terrorists&quot;.<p><i>Edit:</i> Looks like I&#x27;ve hit a very sore point...
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DrNukeover 9 years ago
HN is a bubble made of few making it real, mostly in the Bay Area, and a lot of marginal daydreamers from all over the world. For this reason, the mood and the overall narrative is sometimes bizarre: we have a front page with one topic bashing India as corrupt (it may be 90-95% of the planet, actually) and this one where gender (race, age, culture, attitude) does not affect the industry. A bit detached from ordinary life, both the makers and the dreamers, uh?
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Chris2048over 9 years ago
I think, when we see things like this, we maybe need to clarify <i>where</i> (country) these experiences come from. I suspect that the worst of sexism in tech comes from the US, and that Europe is generally great...
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sarahnadavover 9 years ago
I am glad that this woman had a good experience, but it is the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who wants to use this as social proof that gender discrimination isn&#x27;t a huge problem in the industry is fooling themselves.
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tangled_zansover 9 years ago
Great article.<p>Odd though that so many commenter choose to interpret this as &quot;look! clear proof that there is no sexism! everyone has been overreacting about it!&quot;<p>If you don&#x27;t believe that sexism is a real issue, look at source [0]. It says so right there:<p>&quot;While women have gained many more rights and freedoms in most of the developed world, especially since the beginning of the 20th century, women still face discrimination and harassment worldwide. Until then, women in most of the world did not have the right to vote, and were treated with even greater disrespect than today.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;simple.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Woman" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;simple.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Woman</a>
lifeisstillgoodover 9 years ago
Sexism is not &quot;over-rated&quot;<p>OECD&#x27;s Social Institutions and Gender Index Is at <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.genderindex.org" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.genderindex.org</a>, and is a litany of baked in prejudice, violence, lack of access to education, lack of access to property and other normal legal rights.<p>When we compare the lot of a 16 yo girl in Rwanda to a High schooler in SF, yes it is hard to find where the High schooler is having problems, but we just have to look at the ratio of men and women in tech to see there is a problem - even in modern, western, progressive San Francisco.<p>So globally, sexism is a violent oppressive force holding back progress for billions. In our happier world, it&#x27;s waaaay better, but still not equal - and where there is inequality, there is profitable arbitrage opportunity. Both for talented women and for companies willing and able to introspect and overcome whatever is blocking their use of talented women.<p>The most obvious example I can see is I should be able to hire the very best development talent, for 80% of the price of the equivalent male talent ! Win!
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daleharveyover 9 years ago
It really isnt surprising this is pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page.<p>Lea is obviously a talented and confident person and it is great that she has had such a positive experience. Entirely agree that she can and should share it.<p>It is however sadly predictable that the comments on HN lean very much towards self congratulatory &#x27;gender discrimination isnt really a problem!&#x27; discussions. The huge amount of discussion around the problematic areas of tech culture are routinely censored from this site giving people who have the privilege of not having to suffer from the systematic discrimination an easy pass to believe that there is no problem when even a token effort to look makes it more than obvious that there is a massive problem of discrimination in our field.
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