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Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

216 pointsby olasaustraliaover 9 years ago

21 comments

Animatsover 9 years ago
Physics used to be &quot;hard science&quot; - if it wasn&#x27;t testable, it wasn&#x27;t meaningful. Physicists used to look down on other sciences for that reason. This article shows how much worse things have become. Nobody can figure out a way to test string theory. In cosmology, you can only observe, not experiment. As the article points out, the big questions are out of reach for scaling reasons.<p>Trying to fix the problem through weaker definitions of &quot;testable&quot; is desperation. All those smart people hate to face the fact that what they&#x27;re doing may be total bullshit. This has major economic consequences for physicists - why should they be funded? Physics is funded because it produced the atomic bomb and semiconductors. Those came from the testable parts of physics. Untestable physics cannot produce engineering technology.<p>(The article says &quot;no one has ever seen an atom&quot;. That&#x27;s just wrong. There are lots of picture of atoms. Even pictures of atoms lined up to spell &quot;IBM&quot;.[1])<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;1990&#x2F;04&#x2F;05&#x2F;us&#x2F;2-researchers-spell-ibm-atom-by-atom.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;1990&#x2F;04&#x2F;05&#x2F;us&#x2F;2-researchers-spell-ibm...</a>
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cabinparkover 9 years ago
I think high level theory is wandering aimlessly through a field blindfolded with little guidance or where to look. This is because our current theories are so good, we have no idea where to look. So it begins conjecturing and conjecturing. What it ends up with is nonsensical garbage that does little to advance physics.<p>But yet, there isn&#x27;t a crisis in physics at all since these theorists are so far removed from reality, I don&#x27;t really care what they think. They don&#x27;t really tell use anything useful or interesting so I tend to ignore them. Instead, I focus on things we do know exist but cannot explain, say astrophysical jets, pulsars, or supernovas. We know they exist and we can see them, yet we understand them very little. We have models that are getting better and better over time, but they all exist within the current understanding of physics. This is where physics really is. Whatever garbage the theorists put up on the arxiv can be ignored with little loss.<p>Instead, those of us &quot;in the trenches&quot; can continue our work trying to explain observed phenomena with our current theories. There is no need to add in extra dimensions or cohomology. Maybe, when we&#x27;ve done really understanding our current theories can we talk to those theorists again.<p>Incidentally, since I started my PhD in physics doing numerical relativity, my views on science have changed completely. I used to be interested in stuff like string theory, but actually sitting down and trying to do it left me feeling empty inside. Now that I work in an area that is very closely related to observations, I feel like I am actually learning something about the universe. It&#x27;s hard to explain philosophically, but I really believe in experiments as the guiding principle of science. In my case, we see pulsars (2500+ of them) and we have yet to provide a full explanation of their nature. To me there is something more real and scientific about this then trying to explain multiverse theory but I don&#x27;t know the words to describe it.
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weinzierlover 9 years ago
<p><pre><code> Nowadays, as several philosophers at the workshop said, Popperian falsificationism has been supplanted by Bayesian confirmation theory, or Bayesianism, a modern framework based on the 18th-century probability theory of the English statistician and minister Thomas Bayes. Bayesianism allows for the fact that modern scientific theories typically make claims far beyond what can be directly observed — no one has ever seen an atom — and so today’s theories often resist a falsified-unfalsified dichotomy. Instead, trust in a theory often falls somewhere along a continuum, sliding up or down between 0 and 100 percent as new information becomes available. “The Bayesian framework is much more flexible” than Popper’s theory, said Stephan Hartmann, a Bayesian philosopher at LMU. “It also connects nicely to the psychology of reasoning.” </code></pre> I&#x27;ve never heard of Bayesianism in this context. Is this a serious approach in the philosophy of science?
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mannykannotover 9 years ago
&quot;Massimo Pigliucci, a philosopher at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, pointed out that falsifiability is woefully inadequate as a separator of science and nonscience, as Popper himself recognized. Astrology, for instance, is falsifiable — indeed, it has been falsified ad nauseam — and yet it isn’t science.&quot;<p>You could say the same for phlogiston or N-rays. Falsifiable hypotheses that actually get falsified are dropped from science, but the process of falsifying them is a scientific activity.
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hodwikover 9 years ago
We had a rush of scientific breakthroughs 100 years ago. I believe we will have more.<p>That experimentation in physics has slowed down to 18th century levels doesn&#x27;t mean science is over, it just means the low-hanging fruit is over and we will have to continue slogging through theory before we discover new experiments.<p>Science has always relied on philosophy for its underlying direction, it&#x27;s just obvious again. It took 2040 years before science&#x2F;math could answer Zeno&#x27;s paradoxes. If you can&#x27;t handle the slog you&#x27;re not really a scientist, you&#x27;re a technician.
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soheilover 9 years ago
&quot;Astrology, for instance, is falsifiable — indeed, it has been falsified ad nauseam — and yet it isn’t science.&quot; -Pigliucci<p>Mind blown! Wat? If it&#x27;s falsified then it&#x27;s just wrong, i.e. it had the potential to be science before it was proven to be wrong and now it isn&#x27;t. He seems to be confused about the chronology of theories. If I make up a theory based on complete bs and it just happens to be falsifiable and then falsified then I wasn&#x27;t doing science. I don&#x27;t know of any falsifiable theory that was just pulled out of a hat, was recognized as one but wasn&#x27;t immediately falsified (if there is one then he has a point.) If I come up with a theory and work hard to make sure it&#x27;s falsifiable then I was doing science even if the theory was later falsified.
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Htsthbjigover 9 years ago
Science is born the day that Socrates says &quot;&quot;I know that I know nothing&quot;.<p>Science dies the moment things that are untestable becomes &quot;a new kind of evidence&quot;.<p>If we can&#x27;t test something because whatever reason, like we don&#x27;t have enough energy, the fact that we know we can&#x27;t test it is in fact valuable. We will have to find methods or ways to get there in the future.<p>Until that , we can&#x27;t be sure. Fine. We know we don&#x27;t know.<p>But falsifying this fact and believing in evidence that does not exist is believing we know things that are unknown to us.<p>This is dogma, religion, philosophy, but not science.<p>Nothing wrong about religion, or philosophy, but it is not science.
daxfohlover 9 years ago
My take on the rationales given in the article.<p>#1: &quot;Only game in town&quot;: ZERO viability (perhaps negative). Ether was the only game in town before relativity. Geocentricism was the only game in town before it wasn&#x27;t. Gods were the only game in town before science.<p>#2: &quot;Y grew out of X (and X is solid)&quot;: ZERO viability (perhaps negative). It&#x27;s essentially a corollary of the exact same rationale. (e.g. X = Maxwell&#x27;s Equations, and Y = Ether). Everyone is thinking along the lines of X, and the only thing they can come up with is Y.<p>#3: &quot;Unexpectedly delivered explanations&quot;: THIS is a big deal. Or at least it may be. This is what (I hate to say &quot;philosophers of science&quot;, depicting &quot;armchair philosophers&quot;, but rather &quot;scientists of science&quot;) need to be focusing on. In essence, it asks: can mathematics (sometimes) be considered an experimental science, in the Popperian sense? I think it could, if formalized, and would allow us to tackle on some of these nasty questions more definitively, but I have no idea what that formalization would be. However I&#x27;d be very interested to see if etherian theory had any &quot;unexpectedly delivered explanations&quot; before Einstein. THAT is worth investigating.
GFK_of_xmaspastover 9 years ago
A mistake that lots of people, including many in this thread, is to conflate &#x27;physics&#x27; and &#x27;fundamental&#x2F;particle physics.&#x27;<p>The former&#x27;s still chugging along pretty good, with things like the &quot;invisibility cloaking&quot; and all sorts of condensed matter stuff.
dschiptsovover 9 years ago
Probably, &quot;we&quot; should take a reductionist approach and stop piling up nonsense upon nonsense, <i>mis-</i>using math, statistics, probability and publishing more compilations of unjustifiable and unverifiable references to another products of unconstrained imagination, ambitions and self-praise.<p>Ironically, since Upanishads, there is a maxim, popularized by Buddha, that we should strive to <i>&quot;see things as they are&quot;</i> instead of worship nonsense produced by society of mediocrity.<p>No better advice, probably, could be given. We are in the situation quite similar to that one of 6th-7th century AD, where almost every person who could barely write produce volumes of &quot;religious&quot; and &quot;philosophical&quot; doctrines, commentaries, commentaries to commentaries and similar crap (so called Tantric Buddhism texts, which are available in museums).<p>Nowadays, people who were barely graduated and had, lets say, not quite developed, highly constrained, too specialized and excessively brainwashed minds are doing &quot;research&quot;, that egotistic pompous meme-joggling we could read in any so-called academic journals.<p>So, let&#x27;s try to <i>see things as they are</i>, not misuse math to produce modern hymeras and mumbo-jumbos.
Hermelover 9 years ago
If it is not testable, it does not sound like physics to me. Physics is an empirical science, and should therefore be testable by definition.
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jordanpgover 9 years ago
&gt; But this zooming in demands evermore energy, and the difficulty and cost of building new machines increases exponentially relative to the energy requirement, Gross said.<p>Part of the problem is, as Gross points out, that the cost of experimental research at extreme scales is far out of sync with the cost of theoretical research.<p>The cost of the LHC and the annual budget of NASA are, for example, are around O($10B).<p>Compared with the value of the US economy (just for comparison), which is O($10000B) or so, this doesn&#x27;t seem all that high. Of course the problem is that no <i>direct</i> economic output stems from constructing machines for experimental research. In addition to cost, there are the problems of time (how long experimental work takes) and engineering manpower that might be better spent elsewhere.<p>In any case, it doesn&#x27;t seem obvious to me that in a different economic context than the one we live in, which is largely focused on wasteful consumption and war, that far, far more money couldn&#x27;t be devoted to experimental research.
andy_pppover 9 years ago
I often think about theoretical physics without really knowing enough about it. For example, dark matter, as far as I can tell, is invented to make gravity match how our universe behaves (there appears to be lots more mass than we are expecting).<p>And I also hear that no one understands how shortly after the big bang why our universe (a tiny ball of energy) was quite so uniform.<p>My theory instead of dark matter and string theory (mine is probably wrong) is that the universe consists of every single quantum event that ever happened or could happen and that gravity operates as a blurred field operating through many of these close quantum &quot;universes&quot;.<p>The reason could then be that the set of events that happened after the big bang, every quantum state was explored and we are living in one of the universes that happened to be smooth.<p>It should also explain why gravity is so &quot;weak&quot; compared to the other forces.<p>Anyway, I&#x27;m sure people smarter than me have thought of this and dismissed it for whatever reason!
elie_CHover 9 years ago
So they&#x27;re doing Metaphysics. Time to (re)read Kant.
samuellover 9 years ago
&gt; &quot;The crisis, as Ellis and Silk tell it, is the wildly speculative nature of modern physics theories, which they say reflects a dangerous departure from the scientific method.&quot;<p>Well, there are other areas of Science that have similar or even worse problems with speculative nature and departure from the scientific method. Read &quot;Goo-to-you evolution&quot;. Not much &quot;repeatable, observable experimentation&quot; there.<p>If only Biologists were as honest and honed in consistent, rational and logical thinking as physicists.<p>I&#x27;m prone to think the historically more mathematical nature of the physics discipline plays a role here.
dinkumthinkumover 9 years ago
The premise here is pretty weird. There is a whole branch called philosophy of science. You can&#x27;t just say something that is wrong or untestable is by default is philosophy.<p>Also, physicist have proposed some experiments and observation such as regarding the cosmic microwave background radiation. There is a book called &quot;The Trouble with Physics&quot; and many articles on the subject. There is something to be said about many claims in theoretical physics and the lack of testability but I think this is not rigorous enough and too loose with the labeling.
smegelover 9 years ago
What was wrong with the article title?<p>&gt; A Fight for the Soul of Science
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dil8over 9 years ago
Intersting read on Bayesian Epistemology<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;plato.stanford.edu&#x2F;entries&#x2F;epistemology-bayesian&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;plato.stanford.edu&#x2F;entries&#x2F;epistemology-bayesian&#x2F;</a>
basicplus2over 9 years ago
and in between is quantum physics which is great for predicting outcomes but cannot be proven that it accurately describes reality
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ianamartinover 9 years ago
One of the things that has struck me for a long time about social sciences (and sciences where, in general, the evidence is based on stochastic processes) is that the underlying philosophy of logic is modern symbolic (aka Boolean).<p>The biggest problem there is that hypotheses have no underlying mechanism to make sure that the potential cause and effect are semantically related.<p>If p then q seems innocent enough. It probably seems even more innocent (or at least more simple) than All men are mortal Socrates is a man Socrates is therefore a mortal.<p>Because the required relationships in a syllogistic model can become a bit complicated.<p>I started off in this realm as a Philosophy major studying mostly Aristotelian models of deductive reasoning. It was mostly for kicks because I was a violinist at the time and needed a break from my music theory courses.<p>But when I got into the market research industry and started writing statistical software, I found serious problems with assumptions everywhere I looked. It seemed to me that there&#x27;s a real problem with the way people with informal or introductory experience dealt with statistical results, with the relationship between null and alternative hypotheses, and with the evidence generated by sampling processes.<p>This is probably largely irrelevant to high-level Physicists, but I think it&#x27;s at least partly relevant when we talk about what is and isn&#x27;t falsifiable.<p>There&#x27;s a comment in the piece where a guy says that Astrology is falsifiable, so we know that shouldn&#x27;t be the only criteria for something to count as Science. I think he&#x27;s on to something there because I think the fundamental hypothesis of Astrology is so far out of whack that it shouldn&#x27;t have been considered.<p>There&#x27;s nothing behind astrology that&#x27;s any better than a bad if p then q statement. But we have no way of evaluating these by form. One can simple say, &quot;If the grass is green, then the moon is made of blue cheese.&quot; This is formally a valid statement.<p>The problem I encounter many times (anecdotally, of course) is that people don&#x27;t treat this statement as a material implication. They treat it as a logical conjunct. So that seems somewhat safe in the grass&#x2F;moon example. They make the mistake of thinking of it as simply as, &quot;If the grass is green AND the moon is made of blue cheese . . .&quot; Well, that&#x27;s clearly false. So why bother?<p>But a material implication has consequences. You can flip it around and say (by axiom) that if p then q then !q implies !p. I can assert that green grass =&gt; blue cheese moon. And if you accept that as valid, you can likewise assert that !blue cheese moon =&gt; !green grass.<p>It&#x27;s easy to see the flaws in this contrived example, but it&#x27;s often very difficult to see these problems in realistic examples when you are looking at effect sizes in medicine, or changes in advertising techniques, or samples from thermometers, or the kinds of things that I have no knowledge of in theoretical Physics.<p>It&#x27;s often very difficult to assess when a scientific study has any realistic relationship between a null and alternative hypothesis. It would be nice if it were all statistically about whether or not these two numbers are the same or different, but that&#x27;s frequently not the case.<p>I think the idea is correct, that we do need Philosophers to come up with a better system. Even something as simple as &quot;The subject of a material implication must be included in the predicate of the material implication.&quot; might be a good start. Although it&#x27;s woefully naive.<p>It would be kind of interesting to see people testing hypothesis in the scientific world that were formulated as syllogisms.<p>i.e., based on studies x, y, and z we can make the following claims: all (or some--doesn&#x27;t matter. Most &quot;some&quot; claims can be reduced to a subset of &quot;all&quot; claims) x are y This study shows that z is x Therefore z is y<p>Is it limiting and problematic? Of course. Where do new categories happen?<p>Well, there are negations. You can prove that phenomenon z is not a member of previously known phenomena and is therefore something else.<p>While I think a great many of people sort of feel this way about stuff, I think there&#x27;s a reason to codify it formally. Because so many people don&#x27;t think very clearly about these things in aggregate.<p>It seems kind of ugly. But it would be an improvement over what we have now, which is basically a free-for-all in certain realms of science, where any sufficiently complex idea is grounds for further research, even when the possibilities of proof are non-existent. I say that more to the social sciences than I do the theoretical physicists of the world, so perhaps I&#x27;m off point here.<p>But my general idea is that, yes, philosophy can and should step it up a bit.
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dmfdmfover 9 years ago
This crisis in Physics makes me happier than anyone can know. It signals the end of the dominance of Kantian philosophy in Physics. Mach&#x27;s principle (Einstein&#x27;s polestar), Popperian falsifiability, Cantor&#x27;s paradise of infinity (as described by Hilbert) and all other derivatives of Kant are the dead-end of a false metaphysics and epistemology.<p>We do indeed, live in interesting (or depending on your worldview, dangerous) times.
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