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The peril of talking to normal people

156 pointsby mjirvabout 9 years ago

17 comments

ianamartinabout 9 years ago
I had this experience in undergrad. And I had to stay for several days because I had no therapist for the staff psychologist to call. Being surrounded by genuinely crazy people for three days almost made me crazy.<p>Coming from a music, then music theory, then philosophy, then technology background, it&#x27;s an understatement to say that being precise in my language is extremely important.<p>Most people just don&#x27;t care that much about the exact meanings of what the say or the chain of logical implications implied by certain types of careless wording.<p>It&#x27;s a constant challenge for me to interact with people in a casual social way, so I mostly just don&#x27;t.<p>I probably come across as a pedant in many cases, but that&#x27;s not my intent. I just have a hard time intuiting what people mean when it&#x27;s something other than what they say.
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noir_lordabout 9 years ago
Not a mathematician but a programmer and have had similar problems in the past, I&#x27;ve found that its all to easy to fall into the trap of thinking the world is black and white and that solutions to peoples problems are similar.<p>Mostly people don&#x27;t want you to propose a solution to a problem they just want someone to listen.<p>It&#x27;s a trap because when you really look into it you realise the world isn&#x27;t absolute, I think most of us could come up with a better tax system for example in theory which looks obvious however when you start to look into it you realise the the real world is messy.<p>It is a bit like saying WW1 was caused by some archduke getting shot I guess, a lot of humans like simple answers.
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alexashkaabout 9 years ago
The author is a classic case of a smart person who has not quite cracked how humans work and why and is as a result frustrated.<p>The psychiatrist did what he&#x2F;she did to cover their own ass. Those questions are mandatory procedure and if someone is potentially going to hurt themselves and you knew and decided &#x27;ah probably not&#x27;, then it is YOUR fault. Nobody&#x27;s going to take that chance.<p>That&#x27;s simply knowing how the game works - the same way you&#x27;re supposed to pretend you&#x27;ve gotten along with every workplace you&#x27;ve ever been in during an interview to avoid raising red flags. There are many many more examples of unspoken social rules you simply have to learn.<p>Being smart has the advantage of having the capacity to catch up and make up for traits you naturally aren&#x27;t good at. An average person does not have that luxury - if they&#x27;re born unattractive, they have almost no way to overcome that as one simple example.
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doucheabout 9 years ago
Distressingly, this is why you should probably use the same rules talking with mental health and social service personnel that you would use with the police. Tell them nothing. Honesty does you no good, and can get you in a world of hassle.<p>Works well with doctors as well. Tell them what is wrong with you, so they&#x27;ll give you the right treatment without jerking you around and wasting your time.
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Houshalterabout 9 years ago
This reminds of this article, Useless Medical Disclaimers. It&#x27;s about how medical disclaimers are useless because they don&#x27;t include probabilities, but they can&#x27;t because most people don&#x27;t understand probabilities: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lesswrong.com&#x2F;lw&#x2F;h4&#x2F;useless_medical_disclaimers&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lesswrong.com&#x2F;lw&#x2F;h4&#x2F;useless_medical_disclaimers&#x2F;</a><p>&gt;innumeracy being so widespread, no one would dare put numbers on that sheet of paper. If &quot;amputation&quot; is listed as a consequence with a probability of 0.0001%, patients will run screaming out of the office, crying, &quot;Not my toe! I don&#x27;t want to lose my toe!&quot;
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sampoabout 9 years ago
Feynman gets a psychiatric exam:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;physicshead.blogspot.com&#x2F;2007&#x2F;09&#x2F;feynman-gets-psychiatric-exam.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;physicshead.blogspot.com&#x2F;2007&#x2F;09&#x2F;feynman-gets-psychia...</a>
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afarrellabout 9 years ago
The opposite end of this is why it annoys me when people complain about politicians being liars. Of course politicians lie: a strong commitment to truth is very much against social norms and causes people to be bored at best and angry or creeped-out at worst. Politicians by the nature of their jobs must conform very strongly to social norms and so have to lie more egregiously when forced to answer &quot;simple questions&quot; on complex topics by people (journalists) whose profession incentivized them to create drama.
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proc0about 9 years ago
OH FFS. This person is pedantic at best, if not dumb. How can you call yourself academic and then proceed to completely mis-communicate with people. When the therapist asks, &quot;Are you absolutely sure you&#x27;re not going to hurt yourself later today?&quot;, she&#x27;s asking it within a certain <i></i>context<i></i>. The therapist is obviously excluding out of the ordinary incidents that may happen. Apparently the author is completely missing the context because she&#x27;s either a pedantic nerd, a foreigner still learning English, or just dumb, not because she&#x27;s in her &quot;academic&quot; circle.
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shmageggyabout 9 years ago
Unfortunately, Dr. Safe Side was just doing her job. Therapists are often explicitly instructed to do this check and to err on the side of ambulance, of course for liability and legal reasons. Which is IMO ridiculous; what better way could there be to make someone who is having suicidal thoughts feel more alientated and stressed.
nsxwolfabout 9 years ago
This is really &quot;The peril of talking to psychiatrists&quot; and it&#x27;s a trap normal people fall into also. Life is full of little spring loaded legal traps like this.
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__david__about 9 years ago
This reminds me a lot of the chapter in &quot;Surely you&#x27;re joking, Mr. Feynman&quot; where he enlists in the military and walks away with a 4f exemption. Same precision and honesty in his answers and the same misinterpretation by the doctor.<p>You can find it online, the chapter is titled &quot;Uncle Sam Doesn&#x27;t Need You!&quot;
executesorder66about 9 years ago
&gt; she would laugh at our jokes, use words like “trivial”, “modulo” and “orthogonal” in casual conversation, and even get their meaning right. She became, for all non-work purposes, a mathematician.<p>Is trivial not a word normal people use in conversation? Many people I know who are not Mathematicians or even in the STEM fields use this word in casual conversation. And even the ones that don&#x27;t use it at least know what it means.<p>-------<p>&gt;“Is anyone else concerned about your child’s hearing?” I was about to check “No” when Pink objected: “How would we know that no-one is? We can’t read everyone’s minds.”<p>So it looks like the author can actually think in a way that is not 100% logically correct. So answering “How could I be sure?” to “Are you absolutely sure that you will not hurt yourself today?” is obviously a bad idea, and was not a result of the author only being able to think and respond in a 100% logical way. She totally brought this on herself.
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mightybyteabout 9 years ago
I&#x27;ve noticed a similar thing about myself when I&#x27;m making plans with friends. They&#x27;ll say, &quot;Are you coming to XYZ event tomorrow?&quot; I&#x27;ve noticed that I very rarely answer with &quot;Yes&quot; or a common equivalent even when I fully intend to go. In the back of my mind I&#x27;m thinking, &quot;How could I possibly know whether I will be there tomorrow.&quot; I could die, be involved in an accident, or my transportation could be severely delayed. I usually respond with something like &quot;Probably&quot; or &quot;I&#x27;ll definitely try to make it&quot;. It doesn&#x27;t have the dramatic impact that this story did, but it echoes the same way of thinking.
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chillingeffectabout 9 years ago
I relate totally, but<p>Just a thought: why is the doctor considered the &quot;normal&quot; one? Just because they&#x27;re in the majority?<p>It&#x27;s certainly possible that the majority is a temporary abberation. Even Homo Sapiens could be considered an abnormal mammal with a pesky, self-defeating, super-sized pre-frontal cortex.
PakG1about 9 years ago
This story and the comments here really strike home to me. I too am used to talking in very precise language and when I choose words to say, I choose them with carefully thought-out intent. However, this all happens naturally and very fast in my brain, so it doesn&#x27;t look to other people like I&#x27;m thinking carefully about what I&#x27;m saying.<p>I am now a manager of people. I have discovered that I suck at it. I have discovered that it&#x27;s because so-called normal people don&#x27;t talk precisely. They rely on emotions, interpreting the unsaid, and so on, especially in Asia where I am currently located.<p>I&#x27;ve had a ton of these communication issues with friends, family, co-workers, etc, at various points in my life. I&#x27;ve learned to adjust for other people, and some people have learned to adjust for me. But wow, does it take effort from both sides. If only one side is willing to make an effort to achieve understanding, my experience is that it usually doesn&#x27;t resolve fully.<p>One story still rings for me. My family had a condo that we were renting out to people. The tenant moved out, so we were looking for a new tenant. I suggested Craigslist, but my father also wanted to put an ad in the local newspaper website&#x27;s Classified section. I can&#x27;t remember the exact cost, but it was ~$200 to put up the ad for a certain amount of time. What the heck. No Dad, let&#x27;s not do that. Try Craigslist first, see whether you can get a tenant that way that would satisfy you.<p>Mom hears us arguing, she asks what&#x27;s going on. I say that Dad wants to pay the newspaper for an ad on their website to find a new tenant. Mom says, &quot;Well, if it&#x27;s to find a new tenant, why not? Even if it&#x27;s $300, that&#x27;s a great idea!&quot; At that point, I threw up my hands and said OK, whatever.<p>A little while later, Mom receives the credit card bill. She freaks out over this ~$200 charge, why did we pay so much for whatever this thing is? I blew up because she&#x27;s the one who had said it was OK to pay over $300 if necessary. She was so confused and said, &quot;But that was just an expression! I didn&#x27;t mean actually pay over $300!&quot; We had a long talk about how to communicate.<p>And now as a people manager, I discover that I must have this type of conversation every day. It was much easier when I didn&#x27;t have to deal with ambiguity directly. Before, I could just wash away the ambiguity with detailed requirements documents, contracts, project schedules, knowledge bases, and the like. I am finding that I suck at talking with people. It was much easier when I was a project&#x2F;program manager or a developer.<p>It&#x27;s odd because I was great at talking with people when they&#x27;re simply my client. I can provide amazing customer service, especially for difficult customers. The dynamic is completely different as a people manager. I think in my previous situations, I was driving the conversation to dig out problem details regarding technical stuff and working towards solutions with others. Much more black and white. Whereas currently, I&#x27;m trying to dig out problem details regarding feelings and personality disputes. So not black and white.
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tn13about 9 years ago
This is also classic case of a society which does not trust individuals or let them mind their own business but needlessly interferes int their lives in the name of protecting them.
suneilpabout 9 years ago
I&#x27;d say this story is the peril of talking to people who prefer to err on the safe side. Feel free to read deeply into that.