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You're Entitled to Arguments, But Not (That Particular) Proof

55 pointsby oozcitakover 15 years ago

6 comments

Eliezerover 15 years ago
I'm flattened by the degree to which people assume that, because I'm willing to go along with the guess that anthropogenic global warming is occurring, I must also be in favor of loony policy proposals.<p>Was saying that I was against ethanol-from-corn, and for building 10,000 LFTR nuclear power plants, not enough of a clue?<p>Was saying that I don't worry about AGW in the real world because we have much worse problems not enough of a clue?<p>Is all that just flatly overridden by my being willing to provisionally believe what mainstream climate scientists say? It's a question of simple fact, not values! I should be able to believe something about how the Earth's atmosphere works without automatically ending up lumped in some particular political cluster! I'd understand if you assumed that by default, but I went out of my way to provide you with specific evidence to contradict that assumption! Geepers.
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madairover 15 years ago
Money quote:<p><i>Yes, we've never actually experimented to observe the results over 50 years of artificially adding a large amount of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. But we know from physics that it's a greenhouse gas. It's not a privileged hypothesis we're pulling out of nowhere. It's not like saying "You can't prove there's no invisible pink unicorn in my garage!" [Anthropological Global Warming] is, ceteris paribus, what we should expect to happen if the other things we believe are true. We don't have any experimental results on what will happen 50 years from now, and so you can't grant the proposition the special, super-strong status of something that has been scientifically confirmed by a replicable experiment. But as I point out in "Scientific Evidence, Legal Evidence, Rational Evidence", if science couldn't say anything about that which has not already been observed, we couldn't ever make scientific predictions by which the theories could be confirmed. Extrapolating from the science we do know, global warming should be occurring; you would need specific experimental evidence to contradict that.<p>We are, I think, dealing with that old problem of motivated cognition. As Gilovich says: "Conclusions a person does not want to believe are held to a higher standard than conclusions a person wants to believe. In the former case, the person asks if the evidence compels one to accept the conclusion, whereas in the latter case, the person asks instead if the evidence allows one to accept the conclusion." People map the domain of belief onto the social domain of authority, with a qualitative difference between absolute and nonabsolute demands: If a teacher tells you certain things, and you have to believe them, and you have to recite them back on the test. But when a student makes a suggestion in class, you don't have to go along with it - you're free to agree or disagree (it seems) and no one will punish you.</i>
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gxsover 15 years ago
I don't mean to single the author out- and maybe I'm just off to a rough morning - but, while good, that article is unnecessarily verbose. As much time as I spend reading nowadays, I've grown an appreciation for straight-to-the-point articles that use flowery language sparingly and only when it adds meaning to the article itself.
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oconnoreover 15 years ago
Well, I'm going to approach this from the political angle instead of the scientific angle, because I have my doubts about the accuracy of modern climate models. The Earth is really complex, and while single float thermodynamics equations recalculated on a grid map of the world are probably pretty close to reality, I have yet to see any reason why a few degrees error per century is unthinkable for these computer models.<p>That said, I have seen two political motions within AGW. One, to motivate people to consume less, to accept a reduction in their standard of living. Two, to motivate people to confront and resolve an issue in a sensible way with modern technologies. The latter actually makes sense, AGW or not, unless you really do like breathing exhaust fumes; unfortunately the former seems more common, and less acceptable.
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ellyaggover 15 years ago
The article makes a false assumption. He starts by saying that AGW has the ball, but then carries that on through the rest of his reasoning as a proxy for "global temperatures will be 6 degrees higher in 2100 hundred has the ball", although he doesn't come out and say it.<p>Few educated people disbelieve in the evidence for some AGW. There are a few things that many of us <i>don't</i> believe.<p>We don't believe that there is any reasonable evidence that the magnitude and impact of AGW will be dire. When the IPCC reports come out, there is tons of evidence for weak AGW. But that tons of evidence applies to weak AGW. Each of those studies is evidence for modest claims. It doesn't matter if you accumulate 10 times as many studies supporting those modest claims, it will not be evidence for the incredibly less likely hypotheses that they are made to do work for by the press and politically-motivated scientists.<p>In fact, there's plenty of reason to believe increased temperatures will be a net benefit to humanity. Humanists, but not reactionaries, should be open to this. There is no reason to believe we're currently at our "ideal temperature", and there's no reason to freeze our current ecosystems in time as if they're sanctified objects of a disorganized but fervent religion. Regardless, the claim that rising temperatures will leave us worse off isn't remotely proven.<p>The author waves his hands by the "cost-effective things we can do to mitigate global warming" as if such a thing exists in the current public debate. Almost every proposal normally under discussion in the public venue have overwhelming costs.[1]<p>This is a costs/benefits judgment, and you can't make that judgement without knowing the benefits. On an episode of Mad Men, Don Draper is standing in the living room with his wife and the interior decorator. His wife asks him what he thinks about the new furniture and its arrangement. He says, "Well, it's kind of hard to judge without knowing the price." People seem to forget that.<p>Concerning the benefits, there is no plausible, let alone tested, theory of risk prediction for climate temperatures in 2100. At all. So we're not talking about science here anymore. When you say, well, we can't calculate the risks, but the worst case is the extinction of mankind, you're getting dangerously close to the St. Petersburg paradox. Spreading FUD is a principal mechanism by which con men of all stripes manipulate.<p>[1] Although I'm all for as many nuclear reactors as we can build. By the steady resistance to this cheap and plentiful source of new energy, it's clear that a certain segment of the alarmist AGW movement is only willing to solve our energy problems by putting a cap on human productivity.<p>Edit: Meant to write 6 degrees higher, not 106, in the first sentence.
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dkimballover 15 years ago
This writer missed or is ignoring both the deliberate fraud known as Climategate, and the new discovery about the importance of sunspots; does he know or care about climate change in the past, the Little Ice Age, the Medieval Warm Period, the freeze towards the end of the Roman Empire, and the like? He seems to be too committed to American liberalism, and to have spent too much time arguing with creationists (which, from my personal experience arguing with them, is not good for anyone's sanity), to be able to discuss these issues scientifically.<p>Also, does anyone else get tired of the canard about apes evolving into humans? Recent science indicates that apes and humans are different evolutionary paths; no human or human-precursor species ever evolved knuckle-walking or the simian proportions of arms to legs (and both Neandertals and Cro-Magnons looked mostly like Germans, Scandinavians, or Finns). Pop-cultural understanding of human evolution -- including the pop-cultural understanding held by the evolutionary apologist culture -- is frozen in time at 1945 or earlier; the Holocaust has frightened us away from discussing human evolution (and its natural corollary, human race).<p>This is all the more ironic because, if we _were_ willing to discuss human evolution and race, we would discover pretty quickly that the Nazis were wrong. There is an Aryan race, but it's local to Persia and the Indian Subcontinent (hint: languages and cultures can spread without genetically significant numbers of people spreading with them); there is no Nordic race, but two mostly-unrelated races coexisting in northern Europe; the whole narrative of the development of Western man is the evolution of the Iberian race and its descendants...<p>I'll get off my hobby-horse now.
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