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The Case Against Reality

117 pointsby pepyabout 9 years ago

36 comments

maldusiecleabout 9 years ago
I get really suspicious when I see quantum physics used in this way. It seems like a misdirection. Given the information in the article, it&#x27;s impossible to evaluate his claims--we don&#x27;t have access to the computer models he uses, or the expertise to evaluate his proofs.<p>But there are a lot of gigantic red flags all throughout. Like when he says he&#x27;s mathematically proved that &quot;an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness.&quot; But what it means to &quot;see reality as it is&quot; is exactly what&#x27;s in question! How could he possibly create a mathematical proof of a concept that lacks a definition?<p>This gets even more blatant when he suggests, toward the end, that he&#x27;s &quot;postulating conscious experiences as ontological primitives.&quot; But that would mean that &quot;seeing reality as it is&quot; isn&#x27;t even a coherent concept! If experience itself makes up reality, how could one&#x27;s experiences <i>not</i> correspond to reality?<p>The guy is a crank. What he&#x27;s arguing is a shoddy version of vitalism, dressed up in jargon.
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cubanoabout 9 years ago
I&#x27;ve read this article twice now, and both times the same thought struck me. How much, really, are his &quot;insights&quot; much different from Plato&#x27;s Allegory of Cave philosophy?<p><i>Plato has Socrates describe a gathering of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from things passing in front of a fire behind them, and they begin to give names to these shadows</i>[1]<p>Yes of course the details differ and the physics have drastically changed (invoking QM&#x27;s probability wave functions as the the basis of the &quot;shadows on the cave wall.&quot;), but the idea that all we observe isn&#x27;t a true representation of reality is one of the oldest ideas in all of western philosophy.<p>It reminds of that old quote from Alfred North Whitehead, a preeminent 20th century figure...&quot;All philosophy is a series of footnotes to Plato&quot;<p>[1]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Allegory_of_the_Cave" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Allegory_of_the_Cave</a>
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willchangabout 9 years ago
&quot;Neurons, brains, space … these are just symbols we use, they’re not real.&quot;<p>Such bullshit. Yes, they are symbols, but &quot;just&quot; symbols? They don&#x27;t approximate reality at all? If so, how would he even know?<p>Edit: Let me elaborate. Yes, it&#x27;s possible the world is just one big movie set, and nothing is remotely what it seems to be. It&#x27;s possible everything is just a dream. But this is among the most banal of ideas. We have only made progress as a species by identifying deep, universal consistencies that have proven more reliable than anything else we know. Various scientific revolutions do not change the fact that the game is the same: to account for our observations parsimoniously. Now this guys says, it&#x27;s all &quot;just&quot; symbols. Such bullshit.
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ccallebsabout 9 years ago
If I may make a shitty analogy...<p>Most humans see reality through the lens of high-level languages. A hyper-defined DSL of Ruby. Our everyday interactions and understanding of the world are both informed by that DSL. However, as people specialize into various areas they realize that there exists something deeper, something closer to the metal.<p>Eventually, Julie the scientist discovers that our language can be broken down into more discrete operations than our Ruby DSL would lead us to believe. After much study and experimentation she finds heaps of cryptic-looking code dedicated to memory management, CPU optimization, fault tolerance, etc. The more she studies, the more she finds. By now she&#x27;s uncovered machine code and developed an instrument to compile it down to an even more fundamental entity: binary. You can take this analogy down to the hardware level -- I&#x27;ll spare you.<p>But as human beings we cannot process the world in binary and still function normally. We can certainly think about it and after much effort place our experiences in that context. But we need the aforementioned abstractions to quickly and easily process that we need to run from tigers. Although we know the Ruby DSL hides many details of reality from us by its very nature, we ignore that out of pragmatism.
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astazangastaabout 9 years ago
Okay, after thinking about this a bit longer, I would like to critique his argument.<p>He asserts that we can prove that it is better for so-and-so to perceive according to &quot;fitness&quot; rather than according to &quot;truth&quot;, and maintains this is true with mathematical rigor; fine.<p>This is observably true (allowing me the possibility of observation for the space of this conversation) - predators, for example, usually have forward-facing eyes and vertically-slitted pupils, which allows them to focus and react to motion of prey in front of them; prey often have widely-spaced eyes allowing a greater field of view. Fitness literally makes you see the world differently.<p>However, there is an important dimension that I think he missed (or several), which is that the fitness function governing a trait is a vast, multi-dimensional space.<p>For example, using color we may distinguish between unripe, hard-to-eat fruit (green) and ripe, healthy fruit (reddish-orange). According to his argument, we should therefore only need to see these two colors. Of course this is incorrect, because if our vision were so limited we&#x27;d just be running into trees all the time. Now our fitness function is spread across two, completely unrelated goals - suddenly, it becomes much more attractive (and simpler) to come close to apprehending reality accurately, thereby killing two birds with one stone. It only gets worse as the number of goals we add to our fitness function for perception increases.<p>Furthermore: the space of &quot;goals&quot; is itself a function of the genetic diversity in your population. A species with a lot of spare genetic diversity lying around will be able to refine traits with selection much more efficiently. This means we can develop all sorts of wonderful toys (like a face-matcher) that can augment our perception of reality.<p>Of course, in the end, we&#x27;re just modeling reality, we can&#x27;t Know it in some Buddhist sense; but there is good reason to believe that perception should lean heavily towards a simple objective representation of reality, and that fitness is not such a close rein on it all the time.
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mbrockabout 9 years ago
John Searle was interviewed in the latest episode of <i>The Partially Examined Life</i> about his new book, <i>Seeing Things As They Are</i>.<p>He says that the fallacious argument that we only see mental representations and not reality is &quot;so bad I call it The Bad Argument.&quot;<p>The interview is quite amusing, and it might be interesting to read both his book and Hoffman&#x27;s.
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jcofflandabout 9 years ago
Imagine two neutral networks trained on different data. Their internal data is likely completely different yet, for the most part, they can still agree on the classification of new observations when they both observe a common external reality regardless of how they model that reality internally.<p>This completely destroys the evolution argument in the article that concludes that reality is subjective. An organism may learn to perceive more or less water as a color rather than a quantity because the internal representation does not matter a bit.<p>To me it was already obvious that your red is not the same as mine. If your internal model which represents red is more like my internal model for quantity of water it does not matter at all as long as we can still make the same distinctions of little water vs a lot of water that allow is to survive. The article&#x27;s conclusion that this means reality is observer dependent does not follow.
kazinatorabout 9 years ago
The idea that the world is <i>&quot;nothing like&quot;</i> the one you experience through your senses is completely ... stupid.<p>What you experience through the senses is a valid <i>aspect</i> of the world, which is incomplete, but accurate within its limitations, and largely non-conflicting with other ways of observing which reveal other aspects.<p>Physics, quantum or otherwise, doesn&#x27;t flat-out invalidate what you see around you.<p>Besides, all scientific instruments translate deeper observations which we <i>cannot</i> make with our senses into a representation available to our senses. (In some cases, just numbers which can be visualized, and often direct visualizations). A scientific instrument is in the world, and I can experience its output with my senses.<p>&gt; <i>Suppose there’s a blue rectangular icon on the lower right corner of your computer’s desktop — does that mean that the file itself is blue and rectangular and lives in the lower right corner of your computer? Of course not. </i><p>Of course not, because the file is blue, rectangular and lives in the lower right corner of your <i>desktop</i>. (The desktop isn&#x27;t to be confused with the computer).<p>This is real; the aggregate digital object which includes the icon position and color, as well as other information such as a name, modification time stamp and content, does in fact have among its undeniable attributes that it&#x27;s in the lower right corner of a virtual graphically visualized space known as a desktop and that its color is blue. The position, shape and color are merely not a <i>complete</i> set of its attributes.
esoteric_noncesabout 9 years ago
Is there a logical concept or some sort of &#x27;phrase&#x27; that describes the &#x27;inside and outside of box&#x27; problem? My vocabulary is lacking.<p>In computing, we know quite well that a system&#x27;s inputs and outputs don&#x27;t have to be coupled as well as they seem.<p>I can produce a program &#x27;&#x2F;bin&#x2F;sha256sum&#x27; which drops the sha256sum of a file onto stdout, unless said file is a JPEG image depicting a Shiba Inu, in which case it puts &#x27;such file&#x27;.<p>In computing this is really kind of an obvious result. If we have a debugger or a disassembler we might be able to find that behaviour without actually encountering it. But if it&#x27;s a HTTP API, we really have no way of knowing what&#x27;s going to happen.<p>We can gather lots of empirical evidence, but we have no reason to believe that 5M results or 25M results or 50M results increase our certainty that it &#x27;always does X&#x27;. (Simply, it&#x27;s not provable).<p>It seems to me to be tautological to say that &#x27;reality may not be what it seems&#x27;, in that sense, because we know that we cannot be certain that it even acts the same way at t=t and t=t+1.<p>Even if we found some sort of &#x27;higher state&#x27; - if we found the source code to the program that actually runs all there is - what&#x27;s above that? Turtles all the way down!
hv23about 9 years ago
Some of the ideas in here echo Huxley&#x27;s theories of mind as expressed in The Doors of Perception — that of the mind as a &quot;filter&quot; for true reality.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mind_at_Large" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mind_at_Large</a><p>&quot;Each person is at each moment capable of remembering all that has ever happened to him and of perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the universe. The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful. According to such a theory, each one of us is potentially Mind at Large.&quot;<p>Cursory reading of texts in timeless traditions like Zen, Advaita Vedanta, Hinduism, and other mystic philosophical systems will reveal similar concepts — as will self-inquiry.<p>That we&#x27;re beginning to approach a scientific&#x2F;mathematical explanation of these metaphysical principles is no surprise to me.
nomisbocajabout 9 years ago
&quot;Professor Does LSD for the First Time&quot;
sogenabout 9 years ago
Two things: 1.- It&#x27;s very interesting that the brain+eye can&#x27;t fix some perceptions, that&#x27;s why it&#x27;s impossible to _correctly_ see optical illusions like these: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.telegraph.co.uk&#x2F;multimedia&#x2F;archive&#x2F;01121&#x2F;same-color-illusio_1121075i.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.telegraph.co.uk&#x2F;multimedia&#x2F;archive&#x2F;01121&#x2F;same-color...</a><p>2.- ...it&#x27;s fine as long as the future doesn&#x27;t make us live in here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;gallery&#x2F;hD2Tm1O" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;gallery&#x2F;hD2Tm1O</a> (Safe for work: it&#x27;s a picture of Mark Zuckerberg and about 200 people using VR headsets, with the Matrix pods as background)
pierrebaiabout 9 years ago
Well, I think the main flaw is that reasonable people could think that survival fitness and perception reflecting reality and very closely related. The argument that there could be a better survivability fitness than reflecting reality is overblown by Professor Hoffman. It&#x27;s not like we don&#x27;t already know that our perceptions can be misguided, optical illusion thrives on it. It&#x27;s also extremely hard to believe we could come up with such a successful device as science if our perception of the universe was so off. If there is a divergence, it&#x27;s in fringe effects (like optical illusions) and low percent or sub-percent, not a major shift and distorsion.<p>It&#x27;s a fun idea to entertain, but I&#x27;m worried that someone with a PhD could hold that our perceptions are so far off.
daveloyallabout 9 years ago
A quick scroll through the comments here revealed that most of you missed the point.<p>He&#x27;s not saying we are quantum hand-waving. He&#x27;s describing a BIV situation[1]. He&#x27;s saying that things look weird when we look closely <i>because reality isn&#x27;t there</i>.<p>We&#x27;re neural networks. We always have been. Reality is a layer, one that appears to me to be designed to constrain growth through resource limitations and &quot;garbage collection&quot; (death).<p>Hello, World!<p>1. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;plato.stanford.edu&#x2F;entries&#x2F;skepticism-content-externalism&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;plato.stanford.edu&#x2F;entries&#x2F;skepticism-content-externa...</a>
pklauslerabout 9 years ago
The article is either really profound or a giant wankathon, and I still can&#x27;t tell which after reading it twice.
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evo_9about 9 years ago
Reading the comment throughout this thread it&#x27;s no wonder progress is so slow in this field. Anyone attempting to approach it from a new direction is a fraud, apparently.<p>I found it to be a very fascinating read.
prmphabout 9 years ago
Your perception is reality; different observers may perceive the same thing in different ways, but their perceptions are no less valid because of not corresponding to another observer&#x27;s &quot;truth&quot;. In a sense, even if people perceive falsehood, that perception, in and of itself, is real
anotherevanabout 9 years ago
This reminded me of a fascinating TED talk[1] by Vilayanur Ramachandran where he talks about three unusual neurological conditions. In particular, a case of Capgras Syndrome where the person had an injury that severed the connection between the visual processing and emotional processing parts of the brain. When he saw a loved one, he would be convinced it was an imposter because of this.<p>What struck me was how complex our perception of the world around us is. How the way our brains perceive reality can be so different to each other, and to actual reality. Pretty amazing.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ted.com&#x2F;talks&#x2F;vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_mind" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ted.com&#x2F;talks&#x2F;vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_min...</a>
abalashovabout 9 years ago
&quot;I can talk to you about my headache and believe that I am communicating effectively with you, because you’ve had your own headaches. The same thing is true as apples and the moon and the sun and the universe. Just like you have your own headache, you have your own moon. But I assume it’s relevantly similar to mine. That’s an assumption that could be false, but that’s the source of my communication, and that’s the best we can do in terms of public physical objects and objective science.&quot;<p>So, in other words, he drew the same conclusion that Wittgenstein did over half a century ago (approaching it from the vantage point of language), but dressed up in more up-to-date accoutrements in analytic philosophy?
furyofantaresabout 9 years ago
I don&#x27;t think philosophy is capable of surviving a summary article with choice quotes.
ameliusabout 9 years ago
&gt; If it’s conscious agents all the way down, all first-person points of view, what happens to science? Science has always been a third-person description of the world.<p>It seems to me that the logical conclusion is that science is some kind of introspection.
HillaryBrissabout 9 years ago
&gt; an organism tuned to fitness might see small and large quantities of some resource as, say, red, to indicate low fitness, whereas they might see intermediate quantities as green, to indicate high fitness. Its perceptions will be tuned to fitness, but not to truth. It won’t see any distinction between small and large—it only sees red—even though such a distinction exists in reality.<p>But, what about the fact that, we, as human thinkers, are _aware_ that this is what&#x27;s going on in our own perception?<p>Doesn&#x27;t that give us an ability to both imagine a model of reality beyond our perception and also to test that model?
astazangastaabout 9 years ago
Great interview, but he spent his life studying this shit to get to where this book was, written in 1966: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Social_Construction_of_Reality" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Social_Construction_of_Rea...</a><p>Many of the ideas he&#x27;s talking about are discussed therein; perception and &quot;reality&quot; is an assemblage of ideas, not an objective &quot;truth&quot; waiting to be discovered.
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habermanabout 9 years ago
Yes I think this guy goes too far. But to take a more moderate stance, I think it&#x27;s really interesting that while we can perceive EM waves and sound, we can do so only within limited frequency bands. The reality we perceive is a subset of the available data. And we are also much more sensitive to motion, for example, than gradual change. So I think a much weaker version of the article&#x27;s point is true and interesting.
mizzaoabout 9 years ago
If we can&#x27;t trust our senses, then there isn&#x27;t much point trying to prove what we can&#x27;t see. These models <i>themselves</i> and their predictions are subject to the meta-problem that we can&#x27;t trust that our evolutionary adaptations aren&#x27;t transmogrifying them in some way.
coldteaabout 9 years ago
There&#x27;s a very interesting insight in the interview:<p>&gt;<i>Hoffman: Right. The classic argument is that those of our ancestors who saw more accurately had a competitive advantage over those who saw less accurately and thus were more likely to pass on their genes that coded for those more accurate perceptions, so after thousands of generations we can be quite confident that we’re the offspring of those who saw accurately, and so we see accurately. That sounds very plausible. But I think it is utterly false. It misunderstands the fundamental fact about evolution, which is that it’s about fitness functions—mathematical functions that describe how well a given strategy achieves the goals of survival and reproduction. The mathematical physicist Chetan Prakash proved a theorem that I devised that says: According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness. Never.</i><p>Which reminds me of this:<p><i>Origin of the Logical. — Where has logic originated in men&#x27;s heads? Undoubtedly out of the illogical, the domain of which must originally lave been immense. But numberless beings who reasoned otherwise than we do at present, perished; albeit that they may have come nearer to truth than we!<p>Whoever, for example, could not discern the &quot;like&quot; often enough with regard to food, and with regard to animals dangerous to him, whoever, therefore, deduced too slowly, or was too circumspect in his deductions, had smaller probability of survival than he who in all similar cases immediately divined the equality.<p>The preponderating inclination, however, to deal with the similar as the equal — an illogical inclination, for there is nothing [100%] equal to another — created the whole basis of logic. It was just so (in order that the conception of [a shared] substance should originate, this being indispensable to logic, although in the strictest sense nothing actual corresponds to it) that for a long period the changing process in things had to be overlooked, and remain unperceived.<p>The beings not seeing correctly [and saw similar things as &quot;same&quot; and static] had an advantage over those who saw everything &quot;in flux&quot;.<p>In itself every high degree of circumspection in conclusions, every sceptical inclination, is a great danger to life. No living being might have been preserved unless the contrary inclination — to affirm rather than suspend judgment, to mistake and fabricate rather than wait, to assent rather than deny, to decide rather than be in the right — had been cultivated with extraordinary assiduity.<p>The course of logical thought and reasoning in our modern brain corresponds to a process and struggle of impulses, which singly and in themselves are all very illogical and unjust ; we experience usually only the result of the struggle, so rapidly and secretly does this primitive mechanism now operate in us.</i><p>Friedrich Nietzsche, Gaya Scienza (with small edits in [] to make the passage clearer)
starshadowx2about 9 years ago
I posted this two&#x2F;three days ago and it didn&#x27;t get any traction, glad it&#x27;s gotten more today.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11567365" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11567365</a>
arunixabout 9 years ago
<i>But when you do a split-brain operation, a complete transection of the corpus callosum, you get clear evidence of two separate consciousnesses.</i><p>Is there any evidence supporting that claim?
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dataphyteabout 9 years ago
“There are many degrees of sight and many degrees of blindness. What senses do we lack that we cannot see another world all around us?” -- Frank Herbert
fyhhvvfddhvabout 9 years ago
The guy on lsd still gets eaten by the tiger.
danielamabout 9 years ago
&quot;All Cretans are liars&quot; said Epimenides...a Cretan.
omegaworksabout 9 years ago
What is this guy smoking?
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PeterWhittakerabout 9 years ago
It isn&#x27;t necessarily necessary to invoke QM to make sense of this, though QM and GR have their place in the detailed formulation of various functions.<p>With a good read and a little work, one finds that one&#x27;s experience of the &quot;world&quot; (whatever that is; fortunately, we don&#x27;t need to know; cf below) can be summarized as:<p><pre><code> Xi = ΣPjiIj Ai = Di(Xi) Iij = ΣPijAi </code></pre> Your experience (Xi) is the probability-weighted sum of the impacts (Ij) of all actions, yours and others, aka, &quot;the world&quot;, which we model as a space of actions; this includes your digestion, my writing this, your reading this, the temperature in your surroundings, what happened to each of us yesterday, etc.<p>Your actions, Ai, result from a decision function (Di) that takes your experience-space as its only input; the decision function is arbitrarily complex, but has order likely less than O(n<i></i>c), since you make decisions in real time (dithering is still a decision, in this sense; you are choosing to continue to attempt to choose to act)... ...unless we are a tightly coupled simulation in NP space and achieve momentary &quot;consciousness&quot; (whatever that means) whenever the simulation reaches &quot;consensus&quot; (but that&#x27;s overly complicated, so let&#x27;s use Occam&#x27;s Razor and stick with the simpler model... ...at least until it fails).<p>In this case, the limit on &quot;c&quot; would be set by your wetware: Evolutionarily, we are optimized for decisions with order less than<p><pre><code> O(n**c) </code></pre> Any other decisions get us eaten by tigers (because we took too long). The better our wetware, the more complex and thorough can be Di and still produce result(s) in time to keep us alive.<p>This means our basic decision-making apparatus is short-term optimized, suggesting that many of our decisions for long-term effects will be &quot;bad&quot;, i.e., sub-optimal, because we decide for survival and fitness, not optimal - or even good - long-term consequences.<p>Your impact on anything, including yourself (i) and everything else (Σj), Iij, is the probability-weighted sum of your actions.<p>This is an even simpler view than the article expresses: He suggests it when discussing that positing the existence of a world, W, is unnecessary, but then digresses to a theory of conscious agents... ...which is also unnecessary, but which may be illuminating.<p>In the above formulation, a world, W, is replaced with probability-weighted mappings of actions (of one&#x27;s self and of others) as impacts (on one&#x27;s self and on others). These probability-mappings may be arbitrarily complex; determining their order is a real poser....<p>At the very least, any Ij that takes more than time T to &quot;reach&quot; you does not impact your current Xi (though it may impact future Xi).<p>Interesting. The probability mapping could have a time-based (light cone?) component, or the simple formulation could be replaced with one involving Xif(Xic, Ijic).
imaginenoreabout 9 years ago
There&#x27;s so much misinformation in the article. The two major errors are:<p>&gt; <i>quantum systems don’t seem to be definite objects localized in space until we come along to observe them</i><p>No, that&#x27;s not how it works. When physicists say &quot;observation&quot; in quantum mechanics, they really mean &quot;any interaction, including molecular, photon, electron, etc&quot;.<p>&gt; <i>or when we find ourselves fooled by a perceptual illusion—we realize with a jolt that what we perceive is never the world directly, but rather our brain’s best guess at what that world is like, a kind of internal simulation of an external reality</i><p>Again, no. We built tons of devices that are independent of our senses. If they return consistent results, it means that&#x27;s what reality is. And it doesn&#x27;t matter if it&#x27;s simulated or not, we have to deal with it, and we call it &quot;reality&quot;.
cloudheadabout 9 years ago
&gt; A professor of cognitive science argues that the world is nothing like the one we experience through our senses.<p>Actually the world -is- the world we experience through our senses. There&#x27;s no &quot;other&quot; world. This article is full of shit. Whatever it is he calls &quot;reality as it is&quot; is the same reality we perceive through our cognitive functions, there is no other way to apprehend reality.
fyhhvvfddhvabout 9 years ago
The tiger don&#x27;t care if you&#x27;re on LSD. It will still eat you. And the universe don&#x27;t need an observer for shit to happen. In 10 years I bet the current quantum theories &#x2F;interpretations will make us laugh our asses off
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