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Hiring Is Broken and Isn’t Worth Fixing

90 pointsby daigoba66about 9 years ago

23 comments

ryandrakeabout 9 years ago
&gt; Start by telling recruiters, up front, that you don’t do trivia interviews and the like. Be firm and explicit about this, as in, “if they start asking me to describe merge sort, I’m going to thank them for their time and tell them I need to go.”<p>Wow, OK. I suppose this is fine for someone who doesn&#x27;t actually want a job, or in those rare times when the hiring market favors candidates. But in most cases, the company will just move on to the next resume in the pile. Why bother with this kook when there&#x27;s a line of people outside eager to have a shot?<p>&gt;“Hmm… you know what? I’m really sorry, but I think maybe we got our wires crossed somewhere here. I’ve had experience on the hiring side of this sort of interview style in the past, and I’ve seen it result in some really sub-optimal matches, so I’ve adopted a policy of having certain deal breaker cues in the interviewing process. So at this point I can safely say I’d be unlikely to accept an offer, and I really wouldn’t want to waste any more of your time.&quot;<p>Expected response: &quot;Well........ Bye.&quot;<p>I appreciate the effort put into wording that nicely, but really all you&#x27;re saying is, &quot;Company, you need me more than I need you, and I expect YOU to jump through MY hoops.&quot; This is only true when you&#x27;re a one-in-a-million talent. It&#x27;s not going to work for the other 999,999 people.
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cjcenizalabout 9 years ago
The message I get out of this post is: &quot;Know what you want, and be uncompromising in your search for it.&quot; If a company is interviewing you wrong, then the company is disqualified from your list of places you&#x27;d like to work. You can draw up a similar list of criteria (e.g. has an open source presence, has a remote-first culture, uses JIRA, doesn&#x27;t use JIRA, has low technical debt, has high unit test coverage) with which you can assess culture&#x2F;role fit.<p>If you find the companies you&#x27;re interviewing with consistently fail your test, then bring your pattern-identifying skills to bear and figure out why. Maybe all of the companies you&#x27;re interviewing at have something in common (they&#x27;re all startups, they&#x27;re all Fortune 500s, the CEO isn&#x27;t technical, the roles are too senior&#x2F;junior). In which case you should break the pattern and apply for work at different types of companies.<p>Or possibly the pattern lies within yourself. Do you consistently fail the same kind of technical tests? Does your answer to a specific question (&quot;Can you show us a large codebase you&#x27;ve worked on? Oh, you can&#x27;t?&quot;) tend to elicit the same negative answer? Then maybe you should focus on strengthening those weaknesses.
nostrademonsabout 9 years ago
&quot;Rather, what if you simply placed a creative constraint on the organization that it could not grow by hiring strangers or unknown commodities?&quot;<p>So...make tech even more of an old-boys club than it already is? Because that&#x27;s what people will be complaining about if the only way to get a job is to know someone or be known.<p>Really, there isn&#x27;t a solution here. Any system you use to allocate desirable jobs to an oversupply of applicants will result in folks who believe they were unjustly excluded. What <i>would</i> fix the problem is for people to define &quot;desirable&quot; in different ways, with a bias toward &quot;the place that I actually ended up at&quot;. Love what you do, don&#x27;t do what you love.
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db1024about 9 years ago
I recently interviewed at Google and one coding interview had the most adversarial interviewer that I&#x27;ve ever encountered. It started with the interviewer complaining that he was busy. Everything from the language I chose to each line I wrote received complaints. By time we got past the first question, I thought maybe this was actually a behavioral interview in disguise to see how I&#x27;d deal with adversarial coworkers.<p>I got an offer from them, but I declined without hesitation. I interviewed at Facebook and that process was great. At least one of my coding interviewers <i>did</i> read&#x2F;skim my github code beforehand. Woo, keep it up!
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pklauslerabout 9 years ago
So many &quot;hiring is broken&quot; stories lately. I sympathize. Interviewing is typically not fun.<p>However, I&#x27;d like y&#x27;all to consider the problem from the other side of the table. I conduct a lot of technical interviews. I desperately want to avoid bad hires. How do I avoid the bad hires? It&#x27;s a really hard problem and there are consequences from both false positive and false negative signals.<p>Google asks &quot;big-O&quot; type questions not because they&#x27;re shibboleths or useless trivia. It&#x27;s practical knowledge in an environment where things often have to scale up to absurd degrees. Most candidates haven&#x27;t had experience in that kind of environment, so interviewers are looking for signs of aptitude. Knowing which kinds of algorithms can scale up is a sign of that aptitude for those kinds of problems.<p>Lately, I&#x27;ve been asking more questions from the domain of what I call &quot;programming in the small&quot; -- the kinds of things that crop up when actually writing or reviewing or debugging code. I do this because I&#x27;ve learned that the ability to construct an airtight Boolean predicate expression to test for a well-defined condition is a survival skill for good programmers.<p>If you&#x27;re a good candidate, then I&#x27;m sincerely sorry that I waste some time (for both of us!) talking with you about some basic stuff rather than having a more interesting technical conversation.
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brianbarkerabout 9 years ago
Like standardized testing, interviewing is a bullshit measure of what you really know.<p>Like standardized testing, the way to win is to get good at taking the tests. Even if you disapprove, this is how you get a job. I&#x27;ve accepted this.
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beatabout 9 years ago
Reminds me of something a former co-worker told an incoming revolving-door CTO. He said there are only three things an employer can offer to recruit great technical talent - a great work environment, really interesting work, or lots of money. (Our former employer had a crap environment and dull work)<p>If you need to recruit, you need to offer at least one, preferably all three.
emodendroketabout 9 years ago
&gt; Rather, what if you simply placed a creative constraint on the organization that it could not grow by hiring strangers or unknown commodities?<p>Excellent. As we all know, the tech industry&#x27;s biggest problem is a lack of insularity and out-of-control diversity and this strategy is sure to help.
loserpenguin15about 9 years ago
One thing that I think is commonly missing from these discussions about hiring is the fact that most hiring processes (especially at these large companies) are not designed around letting all qualified applicants in. They are designed to ensure that unqualified applicants don&#x27;t get in, even at the cost of passing up good candidates.<p>The negative cost associated with one bad hire can often outway the gain from one great higher. So if a company has to pass up on some great candidates in order to maintain quality they are going to do it.<p>Are there better ways than trivia questions and whiteboard coding to prevent bad hires? Of Course. One of my co-workers brings up the hiring practice at his old job. They would fly all potential candidates out to their office and have them work (paid) with the team for one day. From there, they would take their top picks and have them work (paid) for a week. From that group they would choose who to hire. My co-worker always remarks about how great of a process it was. However they were also only ever hiring for one or two positions a year. When you&#x27;re trying to hire as many qualified applicants as possible, these kinds of in depth interviews just aren&#x27;t efficient enough.<p>So the negative cost of hiring a bad applicant, in addition to the problem of trying to hire as many people as possible with minimal cost leaves us with interview techniques that don&#x27;t cater to everyone. But they do do a good job of weeding out bad applicants, even if that does mean passing on good applicants.<p>Now I&#x27;m not saying this is the right way to interview, I just think this aspect is commonly left out of these discussions.
mixmastamykabout 9 years ago
Spot on, I&#x27;ve independently decided that I won&#x27;t submit to brain-teasers and white-board coding (diagramming yes) any longer.<p>A company can look at my online work, read my written communication, have a nice chat on the phone, and then perhaps can hire me for a short contract to write a component to see how things work out. If they don&#x27;t they don&#x27;t have to pay.<p>I&#x27;m also considering not allowing video on the calls also, and will experiment with that. For the last five years I haven&#x27;t gotten any work from startups (even though I specialize in python and javascript) and wonder if it is due to the fact that I don&#x27;t dress like a lumberjack and am not as young as I used to be.
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skybrianabout 9 years ago
Maybe filtering out people who won&#x27;t play the game is better for both sides. After all, the company will be asking you to do other things you disagree with. Getting things done often means compromising on stuff that doesn&#x27;t matter in order to do the stuff that does. It&#x27;s an important job skill.<p>This is a clearer signal than &quot;cultural fit&quot; (whatever that means).
ChemicalWarfareabout 9 years ago
Looking at a github profile would take about the same amount of time as walking to the conference room to conduct the interview. So I&#x27;m not buying the &quot;you&#x27;re wasting interviewers time with that stuff&quot; line.<p>Can also serve as a good source of questions - can the candidate answer questions about his&#x2F;her own code? Much more meaningful then some riddles or BST traversal.
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rm999about 9 years ago
The current state of hiring reflects two facts:<p>1. A single bad hire can do immense damage to a team and organization. I never fully appreciated this until I saw the consequences of bad hires, and as a hiring manager it&#x27;s one of my biggest fears.<p>2. Labor laws and HR exist. You can&#x27;t just willy-nilly fire people, there&#x27;s a process in any well-functioning company to protect employees from management and vise versa. As a hiring manager this will generally reflect poorly on you.<p>This has caused interviewers, who are in the position of power, to make the process thorough and straining to protect themselves.<p>In many ways my philosophy has been shifting to the article&#x27;s, which is to grow much more slowly and carefully. I don&#x27;t think this scales well, but it leads to a personal process I can feel good about. I&#x27;ve been networking to meet people within the community, and I hope my future hires either come through personal knowledge of them or vetted referrals.<p>Google is actually capable of this kind of interview, but it&#x27;s rare. I was referred to a manager a few years ago by an ex-coworker, and the whole process was great. I met the whole team, I went to lunch with the manager, he told me I could contact him if I had any questions, etc. I didn&#x27;t end up joining, but I left with a very positive opinion of the manager and team.
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emeralddabout 9 years ago
The problem I see with his solution is on the other side. Alot of very good&#x2F;creative developers and technical people tend to be of a non-social sort. As a result, restricting yourself to known people will inherently miss the people who don&#x27;t move into the &quot;scene&quot; (whatever that happens to be). This just leads to a different set of problems and ultimately results in a &quot;broken&quot; process as well, just a different kind of broken.
dominotwabout 9 years ago
Hiring is broken because people follow what google does.<p>Once google stops asking whiteboard, big o questions hiring will be &quot;fixed&quot;. As simple as that. This is the <i>only</i> to fix it, we don&#x27;t need endless discussions every week about this.
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sharemywinabout 9 years ago
I don&#x27;t think I have a problem with organizations like google that need to filter candidates. For all I care roll dice. It&#x27;s companies that have positions open for 6 months waiting on the &quot;one.&quot;<p>Great advice for hiring the first 50-100 hires after that your hurting your self. You just need meat that point.<p>What do you think of our trash guy he has 4 phds and we pay him 400k a year.
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programLyriqueabout 9 years ago
If you have no time, automate it.<p>If reading&#x2F;skimming github repositories is too long, maybe developing visualisation tools, machine learning tools would help for that.<p>I wonder why Google has not already done that, although they are known to automate their system administration heavily, for instance.
golergkaabout 9 years ago
The funny thing is, when people say things like &quot;hiring is broken&quot;, they usually mean different things. Hiring is very different in different markets and parts of the world.<p>I&#x27;m desperately looking for competent developers right now. I don&#x27;t ask HR for help, and I don&#x27;t really filter by CV: anyone who considers himself a &quot;senior&quot; is going to get a skype call from me. But the first thing I give them is an assignment, 4-8 hours of work for a candidate of desired skill level. I tell candidates this estimate right away, and after sending it out several dozens times already I haven&#x27;t met a single one who would say &quot;sorry, I&#x27;m to busy to work on that for free&quot;. Before starting this process, I was sure this will going to be a problem, and I was sincerely surprised that it didn&#x27;t happen once.
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knownabout 9 years ago
Why interviewers are NOT formally trained to conduct interviews?
FLUX-YOUabout 9 years ago
Ugh, just let people choose their tech interview.<p>- If they have public code, talk about that. Maybe ask them to add a feature onto THEIR code.<p>- If they have no code, give them the option of take-home work or a whiteboard test or a live coding session.<p>- If they have no code and don&#x27;t want to do a take-home or whiteboard or live coding session, and you are both senior level, then just talk about work. It should be pretty clear whether they&#x27;ll be a fit.<p>- If they have no code, don&#x27;t want to do a take-home or whiteboard or live coding session, and are NOT senior level, you should probably pass.<p>People will probably feel better and do better in the interview when they feel they can have a choice in how they are examined because they can plan to show their strengths.<p>The only downside is that with this is it becomes a bit more difficult to track how well your interviews go with a grading rubric or something.
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geebeeabout 9 years ago
This was a good article.<p>I do think that the data structures and algorithms whiteboard exams amount to more than &quot;trivia&quot; and I do think there is value in them (my problem with them as I&#x27;ve posted on this board, is that because our industry lacks a proper exam respected widely by our peers, we have to re-take this exam over and over. It would be like an actuary having to demonstrate a knowledge of calculus and linear algebra on the whiteboard over and over, throughout a career - no wonder developers are eventually fatigued by it and stop wanting to play the game).<p>That said, I like his solution. Just don&#x27;t do it. I&#x27;ll still take the algorithm exam, but I won&#x27;t do take-homes anymore, and I may have missed out on some good opportunities because of it. I just won&#x27;t do this, largely because it&#x27;s too large a time investment on my part without a comparable investment from the company in evaluating my application.<p>Here&#x27;s the problem - we don&#x27;t work in a free labor market. I&#x27;ve done my 12 rounds on HN with people about this, but here it is again - we work in a field where silicon valley employers have convinced congress that there is a &quot;shortage&quot; of programmers. This has led to legislation that allows employers to bestow the right to live and work in the US on employees, and the employer retains that right for the duration of the employee&#x27;s tenure. It is possible to move from one job to another under limited circumstances, but by and large, the visa terms don&#x27;t really allow the worker to change fields, quit and start a company, or pursue a different career path entirely.<p>Because it is generally difficult to immigrate to the US without family reunification or a few other insider tracks, tech visas provide one path to do this. As a result, high tech employers are in a position of amazing power over their workforce. They really can say &quot;we will allow you into the US if you study what we say you should study, interview how we say you should interview, work on the projects we say you should work on, live where we say you should live, and accept the salary we say you should receive&quot;. Yes, there are a few requirements on salary, but without the right to quit and leave (including with no job lined up), the employee&#x27;s bargaining power is greatly reduced.<p>Now, some of us are indeed free agents as individuals, but until <i>all</i> of are free to choose our own path in life, as long as substantial numbers of us are not allowed to do this by law, employers will not have to make the adjustments the market demands when all workers are free.<p>This is why I support general skilled immigration, but I oppose putting corporations in control over a worker&#x27;s right live in the US, including determining the circumstances under which the worker is allowed to arrive initially.<p>Nobody owes me a job under my conditions, and I accept that when I refuse to participate in certain types of interview processes. But nobody owes a corporation a worker under their conditions, and they really seem to be having trouble with this idea.
askyourmotherabout 9 years ago
This actually does work. If you do a little homework, there are employers who eschew the googly-algo-cs-wanna-job bullshit, they talk to you as a person, want to know about your experience, drives, values, and they are usually great places to work.<p>The last two jobs I took were with companies that treat people with respect, and I would now never go back to a big American megacorps HR drone hiring tech test filter rubbish again.
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draw_downabout 9 years ago
The point about turning the tables in a bad interview is an interesting one, but this is mostly &quot;Stop wanting to work for Google ya dummies!&quot; OK, but the problem isn&#x27;t just how Google hires.