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The Origins of SageMath; I am leaving academia to build a company [pdf]

415 pointsby acidflaskalmost 9 years ago

42 comments

ddumasalmost 9 years ago
I&#x27;m glad William included slide 10 calling attention to the hostile and insulting attitude Wolfram Research has toward mathematicians and reproducible science in general. (I think some of Sage Math Inc&#x27;s other closed-course competitors likely have similar attitudes, but Wolfram Research seems to be the worst.)<p>&quot;You should realize at the outset that while knowing about the internals of Mathematica may be of intellectual interest, it is usually much less important in practice than you might at first suppose. Indeed, in almost all practical uses of Mathematica, issues about how Mathematica works inside turn out to be largely irrelevant. Particularly in more advanced applications of Mathematica, it may sometimes seem worthwhile to try to analyze internal algorithms in order to predict which way of doing a given computation will be the most efficient. But most often the analyses will not be worthwhile. For the internals of Mathematica are quite complicated.&quot;<p>Reference: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;reference.wolfram.com&#x2F;language&#x2F;tutorial&#x2F;WhyYouDoNotUsuallyNeedToKnowAboutInternals.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;reference.wolfram.com&#x2F;language&#x2F;tutorial&#x2F;WhyYouDoNotUs...</a><p>For comparison, if you want to audit the Sage Math algorithms that your research depends upon, all you need to do is fire up a text editor (or browse their github). And you won&#x27;t find any statement in the Sage Math docs telling you not to bother because you&#x27;re too dumb to understand what you&#x27;re reading anyway.
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dharmonalmost 9 years ago
This story reminds me of Prof. Tim Davis of Texas A&amp;M, formerly Florida, who I heard had a hard time getting tenure, after making the software and mathematical world a much better place.<p>He (and his group) developed CHOLMOD and UMFPACK and other sparse solvers used everywhere. Basically, when you type A&#x2F;b in Matlab, it calls his code.<p>It was an incredibly challenging task going from sort-of&#x2F;kind-of being able to solve linear systems to where we are today. Hardly anybody thinks about it. Again, you just type A&#x2F;b, even when A is poorly conditioned. You can write a crappy solver in less than 100 lines of code, but if you read his papers, building a rock-solid solver was a very difficult task.<p>Unfortunately this kind of work is important, but pretty thankless.
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cs702almost 9 years ago
It&#x27;s SHAMEFUL that academics like Stein who dedicate their lives to developing amazing open-source software do not get funding and frequently fail to get tenure. These individuals truly are making the world better!
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bluenose69almost 9 years ago
Setting up a company can help because it will let other researchers support the project by buying the software on research grants. A grant can also pay for consultant-style improvements to software. It doesn&#x27;t really matter if the software is also being given away for free. The important thing is to have an invoice to give to the university financial services staff.<p>I&#x27;d prefer it if the granting agencies supported this sort of software infrastructure directly, but, lacking that, a company is a way to hire people to tackle some of the weaknesses of Sage, whether they be in its core functionality or its UI.
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hypeibolealmost 9 years ago
For other people confused about the meaning of BP in this context, it means Benjamin Pierce Fellow.<p>It appears this talk was given in the context of the Benjamin Pierce Centennial Conference:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.math.harvard.edu&#x2F;conferences&#x2F;bp&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.math.harvard.edu&#x2F;conferences&#x2F;bp&#x2F;</a>
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mawekialmost 9 years ago
The problem with Sage, while it&#x27;s an amazing piece of software, that it is abysmally documented. As is maxima. Sure, there&#x27;s an example on how to do integration and anything on a high-school level but every time I wanted to do something a little bit more complex, I was completely lost. I found the Mathematica documentation to be miles ahead.
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nooberminalmost 9 years ago
I hate to be that guy, but this needs to be said. The guy on page 15 was right. Sage <i>should</i> have at least put a little more effort into their applications, because if it did, it would be much more popular and thus more developed.<p>Back in 2011 or so, as a young undergrad, I latched onto sage and used it for an undergrad research project. My BS was from a tiny university (one year, I was the only Physics major in the school)..and I tried to turn all my friends and profs onto sage, being small meant there was no dept. standard, so I tried to impress it on the dept. (3 people really) but they stuck with mathematica because sage didn&#x27;t even have an easy to use ode solver! For pete&#x27;s sake... I understand that sage is a niche project for the math community, but if that&#x27;s the case, that&#x27;s the only place you&#x27;ll find funding and devs from.<p>This is often said here amongst the startup nerds: make sure you have an audience willing to pay. Hey, many of us in the &quot;more applied community&quot; would love to have a FOSS tool that rivals mathematica, we exist! But it needs to do things well, or at least well enough that in linear combination with the fact that it is open source, the overall goodness vector for the project&#x27;s value has a timelike norm. Then, we&#x27;d clamor for it, you get downloads, and one day, the funders will go, &quot;hey, that&#x27;s good shit right there, I better be a part of it!&quot;<p>They don&#x27;t need to do things for others, or for others&#x27; interest. But then, no one should be surprised when such efforts don&#x27;t get funding. I mean, doing something niche implies that less people will be interested which implies that less people will fund it, right? It&#x27;s almost a direct consequence of choosing to serve a niche.
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phamiltonalmost 9 years ago
William and I both presented at a RethinkDB meetup this last fall (SageMathCloud leverages RethinkDB changefeeds in awesome ways) and I got to talk to him a bit about some of these frustrations. It really is a rough spot to be in and I wish him all the best.
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gtycombalmost 9 years ago
Prof. Stein&#x27;s earlier post that had appeared here on HN (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wstein.org&#x2F;mathsoftbio&#x2F;history.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wstein.org&#x2F;mathsoftbio&#x2F;history.pdf</a>) is enormously absorbing reading also. It has much more to tell about the significant challenges that stand in the way of developing high quality open source math software.
williamsteinalmost 9 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;6eIoYMB_0Xc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;6eIoYMB_0Xc</a> is a screencast from the actual talk, including many questions at the end.
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doug1001almost 9 years ago
Mr Stein released the first version of SageMath some time ago--not sure how long but maybe 2007.<p>among other things, SageMath reconciled the confusing namespace soup that is scientific python (numpy, scipy, and matplotlib--three brilliant libraries with partial overlap in functionality and in package names) which SageMath gathered (along with other libraries like SymPy) and put them under a single rubric, &#x27;SageMath&#x27;--one (large) install and you have all of scientific python.<p>SageMath also included a notebook<p>seems not such a big deal now with Anaconda and Jupyter notebook, but in 2007 it certainly was.
fslothalmost 9 years ago
Does make sense - academia is about theory, businesses are part of implementing end user solutions. most of academia runs on a tech stack delivered by commercial entities anyway. Building products is not as much about creativity as delivering a fixed product with a service plan and support chain in addition to product development. Companies have various operations to create full fledged products - academia can supply only the r&amp;d part. And this is a good divisionoflabour, IMO.
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TJSomethingalmost 9 years ago
I like the idea of SageMathCloud. I had a numerical methods class that I took where we used a web-based Python math environment that the professor was having his grad students build. It was pretty buggy and would go down sometimes.<p>Last I heard, they switched back to MATLAB. Having taught MATLAB, I wouldn&#x27;t wish that on anyone. But if SageMathCloud had been around, it would have been a good option.
mungoidalmost 9 years ago
This is why I love sagemath, and open source in general. I cloned the repo a few weeks ago after hearing him mention how he is mainly the sole developer. It&#x27;s a huge undertaking and i know how draining something like that can be for motivation.<p>I may not have time to do a lot but i am gonna join in and help as much as possible. Documentation, bug fixes, whatever. This project deserves it imo
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ssivarkalmost 9 years ago
If you&#x27;re reading this @WilliamStein, firstly, kudos for the whole effort. I think the providing Sage as cloud math software is a powerful strategy, especially with the trend of end users preferring low power devices.<p>I have some thoughts regarding the comment on Slide15 (making Sage good for some applications): I see that python and Jupyter are very popular for machine learning and allied computations. Can SAGE leverage this to provide a service that a large audience would happily pay for -- and then use that to bootstrap a full fledged mathematical software? (Also, on that note, is there any coherence between the leaders of Sage and Jupyter?)
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qrv3walmost 9 years ago
SageMathCloud is amazing: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloud.sagemath.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloud.sagemath.com&#x2F;</a>, for those that want to try it out. Lots of neat bonus features like Python notebooks, Latex support, and even terminal access. The free tier works great for most applications.
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jordighalmost 9 years ago
Will, I have been looking for ways to build a company around GNU Octave too. If you find a way to make money, please let me know. Matlab is one of the Ma&#x27;s that needs a direct replacement. There&#x27;s so much free Matlab code out there that needs a free environment to run on.
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shivenalmost 9 years ago
Good luck and Godspeed!<p>Academia totally sucks in this deeply ingrained ivory-tower mindset that metes out rewards&#x2F;tenure&#x2F;grants based on outdated performance metrics.<p>(Excuse the vitriol, former academic here.)
arca_voragoalmost 9 years ago
I&#x27;m not a math guy, but I am a GNU guy who wants to learn more, and I&#x27;m curious what all the math geeks think about GNU Octave? How does it compare to matlab and mathematica? Any quitks or catches that make it unusuable for certain situations? Stuff like that...
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chestervonwinchalmost 9 years ago
What is the difference between running sage math vs ipython &#x2F; jupyter and importing all the relevant mathematical packages?
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infinity0almost 9 years ago
I hope they improve their software development practises. Packaging SageMath for Debian has been impossible; they use about 100 dependencies and have re-invented their own internal package manager to build all of these with sage-specific patches.
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macawfishalmost 9 years ago
I love Sage! I used it to find this fractal: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;155587929" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;155587929</a>
emmelaichalmost 9 years ago
Good luck to William.<p>I have another perspective though; I knew Allan Steel (Magma guy) as an undergrad at Sydney University. He is an extraordinarily smart person and humble and genial as well.<p>Everyone should be thankful to him and the University of Sydney for having the wisdom to fund the development of Magma.
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et2oalmost 9 years ago
Why did he have to leave academia to start a company if he has tenure?
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keithpeteralmost 9 years ago
So is the business model likely to be similar to that of RStudio where organisations can buy an annual &#x27;commercial licence&#x27; to support the project (in <i>addition</i> to the GPLed version being freely available as mentioned below)?
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FLengyelalmost 9 years ago
All too familiar. I am reminded why I stopped writing software for academic research. It&#x27;s considered low-academic-value work, on a par with system administration or I.T. helpdesk work.
Ericson2314almost 9 years ago
This is a prime example of the tragedy of the commons with FOSS. People wonder what academic or corporate incentives need to change, but I&#x27;d argue in many cases this work lies between research and business and that&#x27;s OK. I think the closest physical-world analogue is civil engineering of public works, and we&#x27;d be wise to make something of this (in the US they perhaps both underfunded, hmmm).
crb002almost 9 years ago
Congrats. I have mixed feelings about Sage. I regularly shell out to Python for many of the underlying libraries, but I rarely use the Sage GUI.
aeriouxalmost 9 years ago
Question: why would anyone Sage &gt; Magma (even though it&#x27;s now a company. i.e. since there already is a clear and ahead forerunner?)
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arghblearghalmost 9 years ago
Wait, so will Sage still be open source?
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davesquealmost 9 years ago
Slightly off-topic: Does anyone know if Sage allows for lisp-style meta-programming like Mathematica?
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sgt101almost 9 years ago
How does the trajectory of SageMath compare to Julia?
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bradlysalmost 9 years ago
I hope it goes well, William. It was nice to take a couple classes from you at UW in 2014.
ianaialmost 9 years ago
Just make sure to add in some DoD specific modules and I think you&#x27;ve got a winner.
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amlutoalmost 9 years ago
I wonder if a simplified variant of SageMath &#x2F; SageMathCloud would make sense as a Sandstorm app. IPython on Sandstorm is a generally excellent experience, and the sage notebook is a similar concept.
rfurmanialmost 9 years ago
The video is now on Youtube <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=6eIoYMB_0Xc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=6eIoYMB_0Xc</a>
boulosalmost 9 years ago
Glad to see you take the leap! (I launched preemptible VMs at Google and have admired your work from afar)
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dalyalmost 9 years ago
(disclosure: I&#x27;m the Axiom Lead Developer)<p>I really applaud William&#x27;s effort to build a company. I wish him all the best and will be willing to provide what help I can.<p>I wrote an AMS diatribe <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ams.org&#x2F;notices&#x2F;201202&#x2F;rtx120200320p.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ams.org&#x2F;notices&#x2F;201202&#x2F;rtx120200320p.pdf</a> about publishing computational mathematics, making several points, one of which was that<p>&quot;Algorithm implementations are proprietary. This needs to end. Science is not done behind a curtain. At least, it has not been hidden since Tar- taglia and Cardano fought over solving the cubic.&quot;<p>However, even if the Ma* software were suddenly open sourced it would be obvious that there was a huge problem.<p>Mathematics rests on several pillars which are currently absent in computational mathematics.<p>Mathematics rests on proofs. Where are the proofs for computational mathematical software?<p>Mathematics rests on research papers, books, and references. Where are the explanations of the theory behind the code? Where are the explanations of the design choices, such as which version of an equation was used and why? Computational mathematics needs much more than bare code.<p>Mathematics rests on courses and students. There may be one course but a whole focused curriculum on computational mathematics needs to exist.<p>Mathematics rests on funding. Universities, government, and some government organizations, like Oak Ridge, are the primary support.<p>William and I have had several discussions around our common problem of finding funding. I was the lead on Magnus (Infinite Group Theory) at City College of New York. We struggled for funding all the time. Axiom can&#x27;t be funded because there is no organization to handle receipts. Funding agency like accountants.<p>Indeed, accounting is vital to open source funding. I contacted several large organizations asking them to set up an &quot;open source accounting firm&quot; (OSAF) which would accept and administer the grants to open source projects. OSAF would accept the grant, maintain the account, disburse funds for valid receipts, and maintain financial records for inspection. Such an accounting organization is needed if an open source project is going to get government or company funding.<p>If SageMath could handle the OSAF issue then the various contributing projects used by Sage could apply for grants from companies or government, knowing that there is an organization capable of managing the funds. This has the non-trivial side benefit of making SageMath the primary focus.<p>Oh, and SageMath could take the &quot;overhead&quot; (more than 50% at most schools) for &quot;paperwork&quot;. My provost lived rather well on the grants.
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rodionosalmost 9 years ago
Not being familiar with the software itself, but how is starting a company, which is just a legal interface around the effort, would advance the effort? Several comments here indicated that documentation was an inhibitor. Would the company structure fix that?
master_yoda_1almost 9 years ago
Thanks for doing this.
penglish1almost 9 years ago
Best of luck! Sage is fantastic, and the world needs it.
RhysUalmost 9 years ago
Jack left?
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