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An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

113 pointsby SmallBetsalmost 9 years ago

21 comments

hkmurakamialmost 9 years ago
It seems that the story is a that a once upwards spiral is now spiraling downwards, and people and institutions must adjust.<p>At one point in time, law was lucrative, and there were not enough lawyers. Schools responded by growing in size and in tuition. Students could justify the loans because there was a high chance that the &quot;investment&quot; would pay off.<p>Fast forward a few decades and law as an industry is contracting. Since the profession is not as lucrative, if you follow the chain, then schools should have contracted in response, minting fewer lawyers. But they can&#x27;t easily adjust when they&#x27;ve built a bureaucracy and dramatically increased the number of tenured faculty. That lead to them misleading applicants by not having transparency with their true employment numbers. For a while, students were duped. But at this point, the cat is largely out of the bag. Applicants numbers are down, and the demise of debt-burdened law grads have hit national headlines numerous times over the last 5 or so years. So now, in uncoordinated fashion, schools must adjust and finally down size. Too bad students were caught in the crossfire for many years before the flares went up.
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MichaelBurgealmost 9 years ago
Why are lawsuits so expensive if there are so many broke lawyers aching for a job? It seems like a company could pay them a middling salary of $70k&#x2F;year to handle ongoing lawsuits, rather than the $300-$700&#x2F;hour that other lawyers demand.<p>Obviously not for your big Oracle vs. Google lawsuits or where the entire company is riding on it, but for anything less than that. For example, every public company gets sued by opportunists every time there&#x27;s a merger or acquisition, or every patent troll expects nobody to fight their case because it&#x27;s so expensive. There&#x27;s lots of little things that come up where you just need someone to do the paperwork.<p>It seems like you could hire a couple broke lawyers to fight patent trolls, and the cost wouldn&#x27;t run into millions when your attorney books a ton of hours.<p>I&#x27;ve considered using paralegals to write up paperwork to be reviewed by an actual lawyer. But it seems like there should be a &#x27;cheap broke lawyer&#x27; option in between the two, who would probably do a fine job.
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sandworm101almost 9 years ago
Blame the schools if you want, but I went to law school in the US and I blame the students. Once upon a time the typical law student had a useful undergrad degree. The JD was something valuable over and above the undergrad. But today&#x27;s typical law student has spent the last four or five years carefully honing their undergrad to maximize GPA. Law school was always the goal and so everything else, everything useful, was skipped.<p>(Hint: Good law schools don&#x27;t care about GPA. Do well on the LSAT and all is forgiven.)<p>Want to get a job? Law is all about selling knowledge. You have to show that you actually know something beyond the bar. Sit down and become an expert on something. Publish a few papers. Get your name out. That&#x27;s what worked for me. Becoming a recognized expert in a very narrow law+technology field opened doors that were firmly shut to bare-bones law grads.<p>And.. learn to speak properly. Too many law schools are letting grads slide through with poor grammar. It might sound trivial but is really important when you are claiming to actually know something.
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mevilealmost 9 years ago
Kids are being advised by parents to get an expensive degree because when they were growing up that&#x27;s how you made it.<p>That&#x27;s not how it is anymore. There&#x27;s no free pass to success, no check all these boxes and then you&#x27;ve made it. You gotta use your brain early on, figure it out for yourself, because ultimately you&#x27;re going to be the one having to live with the consequences of how you&#x27;ve spent your youth.<p>I think there are actually good opportunities in vocational schools. Marketable skills that you can use to find a good job. Law, liberal arts and communication degrees maybe not as marketable.
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mcguirealmost 9 years ago
The author has buried the lead:<p>&quot;<i>“People are not being helped by going to these schools,” Kyle McEntee, executive director of the advocacy group Law School Transparency, said of Valparaiso and other low-tier law schools. “The debt is really high, bar passage rates are horrendous, employment is horrendous.”</i>&quot;<p>Less than 2&#x2F;3 of Valparaiso&#x27;s students can pass the bar. Even if everything else is good, why would anyone recruit there?
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gueloalmost 9 years ago
That was such a frustrating article. I kept reading anecdote after anecdote hoping to find out <i>why</i> the American economy needs fewer lawyers than it used to. They never explained it. Is it a software automation thing?
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gumbyalmost 9 years ago
The supply&#x2F;demand inflation phenomenon described in the article (and also referred to as having happened in Dentistry) is a good warning for coding bootcamps.<p>In fact bootcamps seem to <i>already</i> been in full bubble even though they&#x27;re only a few years old. You see so many hiring their own grads or using faux graduate-employment metrics, which unfortunately the 3rd and 4th tier law schools are doing too.
OliverJonesalmost 9 years ago
This is an unintended consequence of the 2005 US bankruptcy &quot;reform&quot; act. That act made it impossible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy.<p>Because those loans can&#x27;t be discharged in bankruptcy, it&#x27;s less risky to make student loans. Therefore, lenders don&#x27;t have the same incentive as before to underwrite their loans. That is, it isn&#x27;t quite as important to make sure their borrowers have a decent shot at repaying the money.<p>So, it&#x27;s easier to get a student loan. And, it&#x27;s easier to borrow more money. So, it&#x27;s easier for educational institutions to increase tuition and fees, and still fill up their classes. This turns into a vicious cycle increasing tuition and student debt.<p>I don&#x27;t want to pick on Valpo. I don&#x27;t know anything about their law school.<p>If the lenders were taking a close look at the Massachusetts College of Law (MCL, local to me, and struggling a bit) and asking whether their grads were getting decent jobs, they might make it harder to borrow so much money. That would put downward pressure on MCL&#x27;s tuition and fees. But the lenders are not doing that.<p>But why should the lenders bother? It&#x27;s a hassle to underwrite an educational institution. Student borrowers can&#x27;t declare bankruptcy and get out from under those loans, even if the education bought with that money turns out to be worthless to them. So the lenders risk little.<p>It&#x27;s time to repeal that part of the bankruptcy &quot;reform.&quot;<p>Until then people who sign student loan papers should realize they are literally signing away their lives. Student lenders are clever and dangerous predators, and student borrowers are their lawful prey.
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gozur88almost 9 years ago
The legal profession has been in the doldrums long enough people should know better than to go to law school. If you can get into Harvard or Yale it makes sense. Otherwise you&#x27;re wasting your money and time.
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andyalmost 9 years ago
I have paid a lawyer on Upwork $125&#x2F;hour for a few hours to create TOS, Privacy, DMCA policy for my apps and sites. In total, he has worked 1947 hours: $243K. edit: that&#x27;s his lifetime earnings across 84 different jobs, not how much I paid him. I paid him total of a couple hundred bucks.
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sbardlealmost 9 years ago
I still think certain professional careers will always exist for the most passionate and high quality candidates (or, alas, the best connected).
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dctoedtalmost 9 years ago
Lawyer and part-time adjunct law professor [0] here. In terms of root-cause analysis, some of the comments to the NY Times article are thought-provoking --- they suggest that perhaps <i>the urge for prestige and income, on the part of both students and schools</i>, resulted in an upward ratchet for law-faculty salaries and thus for law-school costs, resulting eventually in a mismatch with market realities.<p>For example <i>(all italics are mine)</i>:<p>&quot;The question many have asked is why is law school so expensive .... <i>[O]ther than books and space to sit in lectures and small sessions, what is there?</i> Medical schools need labs, cadavers, hospitals, and other expensive equipment. Physicists need telescopes, rockets into space and expensive equipped labs. ... But law school? Every time I hear that graduates are hundreds of thousands in debt, I wonder where the money went.&quot; --- from &quot;Dale,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html#permid=18872201" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expen...</a><p>&quot;The schools have little in expenses ... physical plant, library and professors. Students buy the only &#x27;equipment&#x27;: texts and laptops.&quot; --- from &quot;Billy Bobby,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html#permid=18873149" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expen...</a><p>&quot;As to the commenter who asked why law school is so expensive, try taking a look at the professor and dean salaries. [1] I was shocked when I learned what some of the professors and deans made at the third tier law school I attended. And, in my view, the school routinely admitted students who had no business being there, likely to pay the bloated salaries of the professors and deans.&quot; --- from &quot;JJ,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html#permid=18873540" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expen...</a><p>&quot;But in the mid- to late 1980s, he said, <i>the school put an increasing emphasis on legal scholarship</i> .... Across the country, many law schools were undergoing a similar evolution. It’s no coincidence that the average law school faculty began to grow quickly around this time: <i>Each professor was teaching fewer courses to make time for research. ... Every law school seemed to want to emulate Harvard and Yale.&quot;</i> --- from the article itself, not the comments<p>&quot;I heard a lawyer say recently that in law school there were many students for whom the &#x27;choice&#x27; to do law was more the result of a process of elimination. They are <i>not able or interested in stem fields, but want the prestige and income of a white collar profession which the soft sciences don&#x27;t necessarily provide,</i> i.e. Sociology, social work, psychology. ... [T]his is why the field is saturated.&quot; ---from &quot;Johanna,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html#permid=18872847" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expen...</a><p>&quot;Make no mistake, the American Bar Association created this mess. The ABA has certified too many law schools and has placed ridiculous standards on these school thus driving up tuition to back-braking <i>[sic]</i> levels. Now law schools are admitting unqualified students to keep their numbers up. It is scary to observe many of these recent graduates. They are poorly read, lack critical thinking skills and are loosely educated.&quot; --- from &quot;Peter,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html#permid=18872663" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expen...</a><p>&quot;There are crushing unmet legal needs in communities across the country. Survivors of gender based violence lack representation. Police violence is uninvestgated. Predatory lenders prey on retirees.&quot; --- from &quot;monte,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html#permid=18873909" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expen...</a><p>&quot;There is a genuine need for lawyers in this society. First, <i>let&#x27;s all get beyond the popular fantasy that they should all be upper middle-class.</i> Yes, a minority can become well-paid attorneys. For the reset <i>[sic]</i>, lower tuition, train them at public universities, and shut down the lawyer -mill expensive private places. <i>Teach most to expect social worker-type salaries and conditions.</i> Allow some loan forgiveness for those who work with the indigent. If nothing else, <i>such an approach to legal training would attract people who would otherwise go into social work.&quot;</i> --- from &quot;Oceanviewer,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html#permid=18876177" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;19&#x2F;business&#x2F;dealbook&#x2F;an-expen...</a><p>[0] Adjunct law professors are paid a pittance, so we&#x27;re not part of the problem of escalating law-school costs --- we all have day jobs as lawyers or judges, and teach because we enjoy it and find it rewarding.<p>[1] I looked up the faculty salaries at my alma mater law school, at UT Austin, as reported by the Texas Tribune. Supposedly, the dean makes $466K; 64 full professors get a median salary $212K; one assistant professor gets $172K; one associate professor gets $122K; 18 lecturers get a median salary of $91K. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;salaries.texastribune.org&#x2F;university-of-texas-at-austin&#x2F;departments&#x2F;school-of-law&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;salaries.texastribune.org&#x2F;university-of-texas-at-aus...</a>
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wallfloweralmost 9 years ago
My friends who went to law school said that the terms 1L&#x2F;2L&#x2F;3L are fixed in stone. It is impossible to take courses in an accelerated manner to graduate in 2 years instead of 3 years. Why? Because the law school and bar association make it that way. Milk the most tuition money out of the students.
cm3almost 9 years ago
In Germany the consensus is that there are so many underutilized lawyers that they resort to shady business tactics like cease and desist as a model of income, looking for opportunities to threaten website operators or trick users with traps and later c&amp;d. And then we have pedagogically incapable and unqualified teachers who only are equipped with field knowledge (math, history, etc.) but are in no way able to teach humans anything, making one wonder if more of the smart enough population should consider education, though that would require reasonable wages. I can&#x27;t help but think there are not many societies that favor education as importantly as it should, if we consider what teachers and public researchers can make.
programLyriquealmost 9 years ago
Is it possible to go to Europe, where law is usually taught at undergraduate level, in public universities, and in some countries, with very cheap tuition fees, and then pass the bar exam back in the US?
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lifeisstillgoodalmost 9 years ago
When I went to university (sometime in the 18th Century) the idea was not vocational training but &quot;learning to think&quot; - at least that&#x27;s what I was told. Most of my courses had underlying principles that if had attended lectures or worked hard I probably would have picked up. And I would assume the same is true of a top law degree - you may not be a lawyer, but fast thinking hard working articulate graduates are valuable whatever.
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Pxtlalmost 9 years ago
I once read that 70% of the world&#x27;s lawyers live in the US. It was only a matter of time before something broke.
brucebalmost 9 years ago
Its hard to feel sorry for people graduating now. The lack lawyer jobs has been known for 5+ years, well before these students enrolled.<p>I wonder if there are any stats on the wages of law professors? Seems they would trend down? Do recent grads teach first year law classes?
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cm3almost 9 years ago
Do movies and tv shows give the wrong impression and lure the wrong people to law degrees?
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ezequiel-garzonalmost 9 years ago
Here&#x27;s hoping for a grellas comment on the matter, as in <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;user?id=grellas" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;user?id=grellas</a>.
mdasenalmost 9 years ago
I feel like the NYTimes missed that their data point is a school that simply isn&#x27;t that good. They call it well-established to give you a sense that it&#x27;s a mid-tier school. It isn&#x27;t. The median student has scored at the 40th percentile on the LSAT, the 25th percentile student at the school has scored at the 33rd percentile on the LSAT. In 1600-point SAT terms, that means the median student is around a 933 out of 1600 on the SAT.<p>The article notes that the person passed the bar on his first try. Indiana and Illinois (the two states grads from Valparaiso usually take the bar in) are 80.93% and 89.38% for first-time takers. So, noting that you passed the bart the first time doesn&#x27;t seem to say much given the high pass rates in those states.<p>Honestly, is the story more that they picked a case from a school that just has mediocre students? What is the comparison between students who go here for law school and students that go to undergrad institutions with 900 SAT scores?<p>Are people who are well below median in tech really doing that well? For example, a friend of mine went to a top-50 school and has a BS in Computer Science. They can&#x27;t find employment as a SWE because they&#x27;re not that good (they got through the courses with a combination of a lot of TA help and sheer force of will). They&#x27;re working for a tech company in a combination of a support and project management position. And that&#x27;s someone who was smart enough to get into a top-50 ranked undergrad institution. Are people who are mediocre and attend an undergrad institution whose median SAT score is in the 900s getting jobs as SWEs with a BSCS? Are they taking adjacent positions where a BSCS might be seen as an &quot;advantage&quot;, but not totally related to the work? Are they taking IT-related jobs?<p>It just seems like the story here is that people who are below median don&#x27;t magically become 75th-90th percentile by a certificate or degree - and that mediocre law schools have been promising that dream to people. In the tech area, we have these bootcamp schools, but at least they&#x27;re not charging students a couple hundred thousand. Like, if you spend $15k on a bootcamp and come out with a $60k salary, that might seem low compared to the dream of six-figures at Google, but you aren&#x27;t saddled with a lot of debt. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;report.turing.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;report.turing.io&#x2F;</a> - Turing has reported that the average salary is $74k for their graduates which is respectable, but if they were taking $200k from students and 3 years of missed wages and 25% of students were earning under $60k, I think it would be the same situation - they&#x27;d be saddled with debt and even if they&#x27;re earning more than they used to be, they&#x27;re not earning a lot compared to the debt. But Turing isn&#x27;t taking that amount of time or money and so if a student comes out with a somewhat mediocre salary by CS standards, they didn&#x27;t waste a lot of time&#x2F;money and might be earning a reasonable bit more than before.<p>And the thing is that places like Turing probably get people who might have done an undergrad at a good school, just not in CS. These are smart people who just lack a specific skill rather than below average people who also lack a specific skill. I mean, give me someone who studied at Boston College and I&#x27;m getting someone smart who just might not know any programming. Bootcamps might be getting a lot of those people - smart people who just don&#x27;t know programming. Now, that doesn&#x27;t mean that any smart person can make a great SWE, but it&#x27;s a much better starting place than someone who is below average.<p>A better story would have been trying to figure out how much value add schools provide. Are elite institutions taking people who would otherwise be successful and marking them as such? Are mediocre institutions not improving outcomes for their students? To what extent do degrees actually improve student outcomes? People who go to schools and graduate schools have historically been privileged people - those who are smart enough to get in and those who are rich enough that they can afford it. Today, loans, a delay in marriage and child-having age, a proliferation of schools, etc. mean that way more people can go to post-secondary institutions. I don&#x27;t know how much schools improve human capital, but that&#x27;s definitely a story. Maybe elite schools do improve human capital a lot because really smart people can use education a lot. Maybe mediocre schools do well for some students and not others. These are important questions. These are questions unanswered by a NYTimes article pretending a mediocre law school with mediocre students means that no one is hiring lawyers.