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Airbnb's impact on cities

90 pointsby truschealmost 9 years ago

26 comments

geebeealmost 9 years ago
I know this isn&#x27;t the main point, but airbnb lost me a long time ago with statements like this:<p>“If it becomes law, this legislation would threaten thousands of low- and middle-income New Yorkers with fines of up to $7,500 simply for listing that they would like to share their homes,” Airbnb fumed.<p>By &quot;share&quot;, do they mean a quid pro quo exchange of goods and services for money?<p>It&#x27;s nuts to call this &quot;sharing&quot;, and I don&#x27;t think this is quibbling about words when people at pro airbnb rallies chant &quot;sharing is caring&quot;. Of course they&#x27;re trying to grab the emotional connotations of &quot;sharing&quot; that exist outside the commerce world, which include friendship, generosity, and a wish to help others. I don&#x27;t expect airbnb to stop this bit of manipulation, but I do think the mainstream media should certainly stop referring to the contract &quot;you may stay in my house on the condition that you pay me the price I have specified&quot; as &quot;sharing&quot;. An argument by ambiguity uses the fact that words have more than one meaning, but honestly, I&#x27;m not sure how &quot;sharing&quot; even applies at all to such a clear cut unambiguous example of commerce.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Equivocation" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Equivocation</a><p>There they go again, claiming that governments are regulating or fining &quot;sharing&quot;. No, they are regulating <i>commerce</i>. They are threatening fines on businesses that fail to properly comply with regulations on commerce.<p>Airbnb&#x27;s corporate-speak is pretty brazen.
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truschealmost 9 years ago
Here in Dublin, Ireland, rents are exploding, mostly because of a severe shortage in apartments, and it&#x27;s a fair question to ask if AirBnB is partially to blame. From [1]:<p>&gt; The average rental value of a two-bed apartment in the city centre at €2,000 per month, less a management fee, would equate to the apartment being occupied for just 120 nights of the year through Airbnb.<p>&gt; Investors have confirmed that if correctly managed, the income can be double that of a long-term rental.<p>(AirBnB disagrees [2])<p>As much as I like the idea of AirBnB, their impact on the housing market in any given city needs to be considered. Unfortunately the article doesn&#x27;t mention that at all, focussing solely on tourism.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.independent.ie&#x2F;business&#x2F;personal-finance&#x2F;property-mortgages&#x2F;booming-airbnb-adding-to-dublins-rent-squeeze-34715683.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.independent.ie&#x2F;business&#x2F;personal-finance&#x2F;property...</a> [2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.irishtimes.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;social-affairs&#x2F;airbnb-insists-home-hosting-is-not-taking-housing-off-market-1.2584950" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.irishtimes.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;social-affairs&#x2F;airbnb-insists...</a>
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joelrunyonalmost 9 years ago
I&#x27;m staying longer term in BCN for a month and a half and accidentally ended up at an outdoor concert last night before realizing that it was protesting tourists. &quot;Tourism kills the city&quot; was the slogan on the signs around the area. In 2 weeks, I&#x27;ve seen at least 2 demonstrations like this and it seems to be picking up from previous years that I&#x27;ve been here. Things are a little more crowded and I feel like every day there&#x27;s a bachelor &#x2F; bachelorette party running around - the density of which reminds me of vegas.<p>I like to think that I blend in more than most tourists - the ones you see in groups of 8 with 2-3 roller bags each fumbling for the keys and trying to make sure they find the right building - but I&#x27;m probably biased.<p>I&#x27;m not sure what BCN&#x27;s solution will be. Tourism is 12-15% of their economy in Catalonia, so it&#x27;s not a small chunk for a country with 20% unemployment rate. The hotel options aren&#x27;t <i>great</i> for what you pay for. AirBnB is definitely cheaper (and usually roomier), but it&#x27;s a difference when you notice that all your neighbors in &quot;old town&quot; are german &#x2F; british tourists that pop in for a weekend and then leave. Barcelona does have an ordinance that you can only rent rooms for longer than 30 days - so they have people that come around on occasion to check - but I think it&#x27;s sort of hit &amp; miss enforcement.<p>I&#x27;m not sure I have answers as much as questions - and it&#x27;s interesting being on the ground zero and seeing this take place.
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personlurkingalmost 9 years ago
It&#x27;s not only Airbnb in Europe, but also Erasmus (twice a year they make finding housing very difficult), Uniplaces (like Airbnb but for EU students), local classifieds sites (which now just double as Airbnb and Uniplaces listings) and being known as an affordable city (like here, in Lisbon, which is being called &quot;the new Berlin&quot; as well as the new &quot;startup capital city&quot;).<p>Over the past 3 years, rental prices here have increased 30%, pushing locals out of the city center. A quick look on Airbnb for Lisbon, one sees the average monthly price at around 700 euro (for a room) while some listings go well above 1,000 euro. Three years ago, the norm for a room - no matter how you found it - was 180 to 220 euro per month, now the minimum is 300 and increasing. People are mad, and rightly so since minimum wage here is 530 euro.<p>If anyone wishes to see all the stats well laid out, this article below (in Portuguese) has been circulating locally. I suggest running it through an online translator. It&#x27;s titled &quot;Who is going to be able to live in Lisbon?&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.buala.org&#x2F;pt&#x2F;cidade&#x2F;quem-vai-poder-morar-em-lisboa" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.buala.org&#x2F;pt&#x2F;cidade&#x2F;quem-vai-poder-morar-em-lisbo...</a>?<p>One of the images from the article is this (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;FFDVm0M.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;FFDVm0M.jpg</a>) showing local Airbnb saturation, where 75% of listings are entire homes&#x2F;apts. Airbnb&#x27;s regional head says in 2015 there were 12K homes listed in the Greater Lisbon area, a 60% jump from 2014 numbers. We&#x27;re a small city but data shows there are 174 hostels and 184 hotels here, with many more in the pipeline.<p>It&#x27;s out of hand and the govt hasn&#x27;t done much of anything to stop it. By the way, that local listing at over 1K euro per month? It had lots of reviews, meaning there have been plenty of takers.
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Techowlalmost 9 years ago
Surely the projections cited in this article aren&#x27;t accurate.<p>&gt; Already operating in 191 countries and 34,000 cities, analysts at financial services company Cowen &amp; Co predict that, by 2020, Airbnb hosts will be taking 500 million bookings a night, rising to a staggering one billion by 2025.<p>If the population of the world is about 8.2 billion in 2025, which is the UN&#x27;s expectation [0], that&#x27;d mean one Airbnb booking a night per eight humans on Earth. Perhaps they mean yearly, not nightly?<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.unfpa.org&#x2F;news&#x2F;world-population-increase-one-billion-2025" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.unfpa.org&#x2F;news&#x2F;world-population-increase-one-bill...</a>
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vemvalmost 9 years ago
It&#x27;d be awesome if Airbnb integrated each city&#x27;s regulation into its software. e.g. it ensures that you can&#x27;t host more than X nights a year.<p>It could even extract the taxes from each host&#x27;s incomes and pay them directly to each city council.<p>Prediction: if Airbnb doesn&#x27;t do it, someone else will and councils will rule out competitors as illegal.
frequentalmost 9 years ago
Isn&#x27;t the &quot;ruining&quot; of cities more due to general lack of affordable space in light of increased urbanization and tourism?<p>Granted, Airbnb will add its share to the overall shortage, but if I&#x27;d take all Airbnb apartments off of any market, would this put rents back to an affordable level or curtail tourism?<p>Airbnb reminds me a bit of eBay - good idea led to an influx of professional sellers, which at some point had to be regulated (register as business, taxable income) and in growing up, the platform lost most of its appeal and discoverability of the things it once was created for. Still fills a large enough demand to be around.<p>I&#x27;ll call the same for Airbnb: There&#x27;s demand for staying at a place which does not feel like a hotel and I found the Berlin ruling made for Airbnb to be going in a good direction (Zwecksentfremdungsverbot - use Airbnb if you rent out part of your place, but if you rent on as a business, it must be registered as such). I&#x27;ll expect other cities to follow suit, because it also postpones having to address the underlying issue.<p>(regular Couchsurfing host and sparse surfer)
forrestthewoodsalmost 9 years ago
Answer? Probably not. Especially if you don&#x27;t provide housing stock numbers.<p>The last AirBnB complaint I read was in Seattle which had a whopping 1000 units on the market. Which is jack shit.<p>If you want top argue that AirBnB is a problem then you have to list the number of houses, apartments, hotel rooms, and AirBnB units. I&#x27;m not convinced it&#x27;s s talk problem in any city in the world.<p>Now regulations that inhibit new construction? <i>That&#x27;s</i> an issues in more than a few places!
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Bombthecatalmost 9 years ago
The bigger question is, why should I create new houses and apartments when I just can raise the rent?<p>Right, no one would and no one will.<p>Without the state intervening we will have a lot of new york cities around the globe.
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hackuseralmost 9 years ago
&gt; analysts at financial services company Cowen &amp; Co predict that, by 2020, Airbnb hosts will be taking 500 million bookings a night, rising to a staggering one billion by 2025.<p>In a world of 7-8 billion people (and where most people live with and travel with others, so there are many fewer households and travel groups), these numbers seem more than a little unlikely.
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f_allweinalmost 9 years ago
I am also becoming wary of using airbnb, for some of the reasons mentioned here. I did meet some great hosts, but at other times I felt I would have been better off e.g. in a hostel.<p>Also, people who care about hosting and getting to know travelers could just sign up to Couchsurfing or Hospitalityclub, which strangely don&#x27;t seem to be booming.
bogomipzalmost 9 years ago
&quot;Earlier this month, it released data showing that since it began it has collected $85m in tax revenue for cities worldwide.&quot;<p>That&#x27;s not a very impressive figure. That&#x27;s for a global company with massive revenue, now in it&#x27;s eight year?<p>“If it becomes law, this legislation would threaten thousands of low- and middle-income New Yorkers with fines of up to $7,500 simply for listing that they would like to share their homes,” Airbnb fumed.<p>Uhm no, lower class New Yorkers don&#x27;t own they rent and this is the point - the property is not theirs to profit from. Most middle class New Yorkers don&#x27;t own their own homes either and if they do its likely a one bedroom or a studio. A two bedroom in New York is well out of reach of whatever is left of the middle class there. People that can afford two bedrooms in New York are generally not the &quot;lets make a few extra dollars from this sharing economy&quot; types.<p>I know that in New Orleans the hotel industry has felt the pinch of Airbnb. Even during big weekend like Jazz Fest, you could still get a room last minute this year, something that used to be unheard of. While its great that tourist dollars still enter the local economy, the hotels employ a lot of people. This is significant in an economy that is almost solely based around hospitality and tourism.
p4wnc6almost 9 years ago
In the past 6 years, I&#x27;ve traveled significantly in New England, the New York City region, the Paris and Marseille regions, London, Leeds, Manchester, and Edinburgh, Iceland, Barcelona, Mallorca, Rome, Geneva, Genoa, Munich, Berlin, Amsterdam, Antwerp, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Santa Fe, and Austin, across a mix of work-related travel to conferences, vacations, and graduate school that involved time at a foreign program.<p>I have not ever used Airbnb, never found difficulty in getting good hotel accommodations for reasonable prices, never found difficult being shown around the &quot;non-touristy&quot; parts of every place I&#x27;ve visited, either by just asking locals, getting advice from friends, using travel websites, etc., and have really, really valued the nicer accommodations in traditional hotels (especially the extra privacy, standardized cleanliness, and lower variance in terms of noise and sounds that reduce sleep quality).<p>I&#x27;m not being snarky or critical of Airbnb, many of my good friends love it and seem to get a lot of value out of it. But I cannot see any aspect of Airbnb that offers value to me or satisfies my search criteria when looking for housing.<p>Given this, it is almost bewildering to me that there is so much demand for Airbnb-provided short term lodging that landlords would even consider the idea that renting an apartment solely as an Airbnb rental is more profitable than traditional rental agreements.<p>I mean, I can&#x27;t blame the landlords if that&#x27;s the case. But I sure do feel like the mass of travelers who believe they are getting value from Airbnb simply cannot be correct in their belief that they are actually receiving that value. I just wonder why they <i>think</i> they are.
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austinlalmost 9 years ago
I stayed in 4 different Airbnbs in Barcelona around the time when Ada Colau was pushing to have them all registered [1]. The major concern I heard from my hosts were about properties used _only for Airbnb_, which were particularly notorious in Barceloneta.<p>A few people figured out they could pose as fake tenets in several apartments at once, then turn a profit by listing them all on Airbnb. This was where things went from bad to worse — some people were listing 10+ properties at the same time [2].<p>With all of that, I&#x27;m not surprised there was such a backlash. The type of subletting that was going on in BCN is clearly not what Airbnb is about. It&#x27;s unfortunate that it&#x27;s led to a much larger&#x2F;more political movement against tourism in general.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.citylab.com&#x2F;housing&#x2F;2015&#x2F;12&#x2F;barcelona-airbnb-tourism&#x2F;421788&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.citylab.com&#x2F;housing&#x2F;2015&#x2F;12&#x2F;barcelona-airbnb-tour...</a> [2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;elpais.com&#x2F;elpais&#x2F;2015&#x2F;09&#x2F;01&#x2F;inenglish&#x2F;1441115926_651764.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;elpais.com&#x2F;elpais&#x2F;2015&#x2F;09&#x2F;01&#x2F;inenglish&#x2F;1441115926_651...</a>
WalterBrightalmost 9 years ago
New businesses and ways of doing business always disrupt the existing businesses, and the existing ones frequently advocate for regulations to preserve their niche.
edemalmost 9 years ago
In Budapest, Hungary I can see a rise in prices from 250 EUR&#x2F;month to almost 350 EUR&#x2F;month for the same flat in the last 2 years thanks to Airbnb. What happens here is that most property owners realized that they can make more money by renting their flat (not just a room) instead of underleasing it. This leads to a LOT of people hopelessly scrambling for flats to rent because there are not a lot of new flats being built. Basically tourists are taking away flats from people who are trying to live in the city. This is horrible IMHO. I hope that the government will assess brutal taxes on Airbnb to make it useless or otherwise a lot of people will either become homeless or are forced to return to the countryside.
goblin89almost 9 years ago
Obviously this must be an impact of increased mobility and globalization forcing previously isolated economies to compete in larger market, with Airbnb merely riding the wave.<p>Dwellers of comparatively more well-off cities probably aren’t complaining about tourists driving them out, in other words. In Seoul, for example, monthly rate for a studio on Airbnb right now seems close to what a local would pay for a similar option found via old-school real estate agency[0].<p>[0] If they could get away without depositing some $xxxxx upfront. Based on experience of a friend who in 2014–2015 rented a studio found via an agency.
khattamalmost 9 years ago
So the argument is that since Airbnb makes travel cheaper, it is ruining the cities?<p>Suggesting that hotels were keeping the prices artificially high to limit tourists and hence conserve the cities?<p>Try harder next time.
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EugeneOZalmost 9 years ago
Airbnb is definitely not the analogy of Uber. It&#x27;s extremely expensive service - prices of dirty rooms with old furniture are higher than in 4-stars apart-hotels. In city I live (Saint Petersburg) price for room in Airbnb is 8-9 times higher than on local sites. And I tried to find room in Rome, Prague, Barcelona - every time Airbnb was more expensive than good hotels.
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jkotalmost 9 years ago
There is explosion of cheap flight tickets.
Lucadgalmost 9 years ago
rencently Airbnb introduced Smart Prices. It&#x27;s an optional automated system which allows the host to accept prices suggested by Airbnb&#x27;s algorithm. They prices are usually very low and I have the feeling they&#x27;ll make it less interesting for many renters to stay on the market. Maybe it will bring some balance. It&#x27;s completely counterintiuitive but I&#x27;m afraid they are destroying the market. I already know some people going off Airbnb and moving to other platforms because it only brings cheap bookings.
dangalmost 9 years ago
This article is better than a lot of comparables and the discussion isn&#x27;t bad, so we&#x27;ve reduced the downweights (not Airbnb-related) that got automatically applied to this submission and replaced the baity title with something more neutral. If anyone wants to suggest a more accurate and neutral title, we can change it again.
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tehchromicalmost 9 years ago
Long term the impact I see is better tourists and better cities.
luojiebinalmost 9 years ago
I don&#x27;t think so
dangalmost 9 years ago
You&#x27;ve been posting uncivil and unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. We ban accounts that do that, so please stop doing that. Instead, please (re)-read the site guidelines and follow them. That means posting civilly and substantively, or not at all.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newswelcome.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newswelcome.html</a><p>Edit: oops, I misread that comment, so have detached this one from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11980147" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11980147</a> and marked it off topic.
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yummyfajitasalmost 9 years ago
Tourists are human beings, same as residents. Tourists value the opportunity to visit for 2 weeks more than residents value the opportunity to live there for 2 weeks (as evidenced by their willingness to pay more).<p>Why do you believe tourists deserve fewer rights than residents?<p>I realize that in terms of blatant power struggles to control the means of violence, tourists will lose. But lets not pretend that&#x27;s anything other than the strong exploiting the weak.
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