In the United States, the VW defeat mechanism abates 275,000 tonne/yr CO2 at the cost of 8,200 tonne/yr NOx.[1][2][3][4][5][6]<p>[1] NY Times: How Volkswagen Got Away With Diesel Deception
<a href="http://nyti.ms/1ZjAV1w" rel="nofollow">http://nyti.ms/1ZjAV1w</a><p>[2] Vox: VW's appalling clean diesel scandal, explained
<a href="http://bit.ly/1MhJVuA" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/1MhJVuA</a><p>[3] FHWA: Annual Vehicle Distance Traveled and Related Data
<a href="http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2013/vm1.cfm" rel="nofollow">http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2013/vm...</a><p>[4] EIA: How much CO2 is produced by burning gasoline?
<a href="http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=307&t=11" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=307&t=11</a><p>[5] EPA: Does the fuel used in fuel economy testing contain ethanol?
<a href="http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/about/faq.htm#ethanol" rel="nofollow">http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/about/faq.htm#ethanol</a><p>[6] DOE: Fuel Economy of 2015 Volkswagen Jetta
<a href="http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2015_Volkswagen_Jetta.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2015_Volkswagen_Jetta...</a>
It seems odd to me that most of the financial windfall here goes to Volkswagen owners. (2/3 anyway). Wasn't the "damage" done almost exclusively environmental, which affects everyone?<p>Wouldn't it make more sense to use these large amounts of money to combat the actual damage that was done? (e.g. environmental cleanup initiatives?)
I'm a "proud" owner of a 2014 Passat TDI (purchased May 2014). Here's the math breakdown for me personally:<p>- $26,000 for the car, before TTL
- First year, the car will depreciate 20%, so its September 2015 value would be $20,800.
- VW will give me $5,100 (maybe more) plus that Sept 2015 value = $25,900
- I don't have to make a decision until December 2018<p>Result: I get a car for 4.5 years for which I've paid $100<p>* Simplified math, doesn't factor time-value or the 0.9% interest rate.
"Owners will have two years to decide whether to sell back vehicles..."<p>So the rumor is I can drive my affected Golf TDI for ~2 more years, and then get compensated @9/2015 value plus up to $5k on top of that? Honestly, that's a terrible deal for VW.<p>Edit: thinking more, maybe this is better for VW than an alternative where they have to make good right away. They don't have to scramble to get 500k cars repaired or off the road as quickly, and they can spread whatever makes up the rest of their hit over a longer period as well.<p>To me, this does signal that we're a lot more upset about the dishonesty than we are about the emissions themselves.
Where's the jailtime?<p>As an individual, you make one wrong statement to the FBI, and you are hauled off to jail. The company lied over 500,000 times to the government, and gets off by paying a paltry fine. No wonder companies continue to do this: there is no consequence to the employees who do this shit.
Compare with <a href="http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/29/vw-excess-emissions-linked-to-60-us-deaths-study.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/29/vw-excess-emissions-linked-to...</a>.<p>VWs actions left around 60 estimated dead. Around 120,000 days of people not being able to function normally. At a direct cost to the economy of around $450 million. And a cost to our quality of life that most would consider even higher.<p>All of which is bad. But no matter how you do the math, most of this fine is punitive dissuasion for others who might be tempted to also cheat.<p>(Note that most of the fine moves money from the left hand to the right without destroying it, so we are theoretically collectively left better off as a result. Plus we prevent about as much more damage as we had already.)
On September 22, 2015, VW stock had the trading highest volume / price decline. The stock closed $106 per share that day.<p>There is a trading strategy that assumes markets over estimate liability of lawsuits. While I am probably cherry picking data, it is notable that the stock closed at exactly $106 per share today. So much for that trading strategy in this case. The market pretty much nailed it.
Economic war: US vs. Germany. Nothing else.<p>Nature would benefit if gasoline prices were 10 US per liter and people would stop to drive around senselessly. (I know the geographic circumstances make this impossible, but nevertheless...).
If you discount all the hypothetical environmental costs that at best guess are just that, guesses. And, if you were to consider this penalty in a somewhat satirical manner, it would have been cheaper for VW if they would have been killing the consumers of their cars.<p>I understand the punitive nature of the penalty and its amount, but the amount seems somewhat egregious given the fact that all VW did was violate regulations of a government body. Uber is constantly praised for skirting or directly violating state or local government laws and regulations, yet is seen in an overall positive light for the supposed benefit they are providing society. This is the government's heavy hand making an example of VW and it's violation of regulation.
I'm not following this closely, but I understand most at least 4 other auto manufacturers were doing essentially the same thing: <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes...</a><p>Why the focus on VW, then, rather on the auto industry?
I'm of the opinion that there should be a corporate death penalty (though I oppose the death penalty in criminal cases). There's some situations that are so ethically indefensible, wherein a corporation can cause incredible harm over a long period of time, that the only just outcome is for the company to be destroyed. The people responsible are shielded from any real consequence (how many people at VW knew about this, and how many are going to jail over it?). This is not a minor squabble over regulations; this is a conscious decision, involving many executives within the company, to willfully cause environmental destruction that directly costs human lives and health.<p>This is one of those cases where the corporate death penalty is the only just outcome I can think of.<p>$15 billion looks like a large sum; and maybe it's even enough to deter car companies from doing something similar in the future. Maybe. VW is worth $73 billion, and they generated a lot of money on the strength of their diesel campaigns. Amortized over the many years that they were shipping out these cars, it begins to look like a cost of doing business, rather than a massively punitive expense.
Does anybody remember when Volkswagen blamed the scandal on "the engineer culture" or something like that? like those engineers at Volkswagen called the shot and not the management ... ridiculous , like these engineers weren't asked to cheat ... I can't wait for the criminal investigation.
For context:<p><i>GM to Pay Record $35 Million Fine Over Ignition Switch Recalls</i> (May 2014)<p><a href="http://time.com/102906/gm-fine-ignition-recalls/" rel="nofollow">http://time.com/102906/gm-fine-ignition-recalls/</a><p>"The federal government struck a $35 million settlement with General Motors after the company failed to act for 10 years on an ignition switch defect that led to the death of at least 13 people and recall of approximately 2.6 million vehicles"
Does anyone know what the total paid by BP was for Deepwater Horizon? I can't seem to find a total anywhere here:<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_litigation" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_litigation</a>
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon#Aftermath" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon#Aftermath</a>
So because they marketed it as "Clean diesel" in the US their 2009 2.0 tdi owners get $5-10k plus an estimated value of the car as of 2015. Meanwhile in Europe we get a "fix" that reduces engine power and/or increases fuel consumption, and while the car has depreciated in value we get no other compensation, and seem to have no way of winning a class action against VW (Of course, if we did, we'd could kill VW instantly which I assume is not what any of the EU member countries want). I'd be perfectly happy with a much smaller sum or even a rebate on a new car. But no. Nothing.<p>The low emission 2.0 TDI models (Such as Audi's TDIe) <i>were</i> very much marketed as very eco friendly, and it meant a lot of corporate buyers with CO2 caps bought it in stiff competition with other cars. If the engines had met the NOx emissions, the consumption (and thus CO2) would have been higher, and the cars couldn't have been boughy, or wouldn't have been bought because of being less attractive with lower power or higher consumption. If this isn't marketing it as "clean diesel" I don't know what is.
I am surprised that no one mentioned the other fraudulent actor in this whole mess: the CARB, California's Air Resources Board.<p>They are the ones who lied about their diesel engine standards for air quality. Under the guise of making tough standards they basically outlawed diesels in California.<p>Since CA is such a big car market this prevented most manufacturers from selling any diesel cars anywhere in the USA.
VW deserves this. Hopefully this penalty will discourage other automakers from cheating in this way. It would also be nice if Mr. Winterkorn and the executives who were complicit in this were prosecuted. I wonder how well they have covered their tracks.<p>I am glad to see there will be some money going to the owners of the affected diesels. A lot of these people bought the cars because they were marketed as more environmentally friendly. Then, they were left with an embarrassing car with near-zero resale value once the revelations came out.<p>I feel like the US has a bizarrely inconsistent attitude towards air pollution. The standards for NOx emissions for diesel construction equipment and ships are almost non-existent. If VW's actions are reprehensible, surely the lawmakers who created such a bizarrely fragmented regulatory regime are also to blame. <a href="http://www.greenhoustontx.gov/reports/closingdieseldivide.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenhoustontx.gov/reports/closingdieseldivide.pd...</a>
I am really amazed by the comments I read so I am voluntarily going to "defend" VW while I would not in other circumstances. To make sure this is understood: yes VW is guilty, it has violated customers' trust, they are a shame for the entire car industry and should receive strong punishment for that.<p>Yet, how can everybody forget about all other car manufacturers - especially US? They pretty much all lie about their gas emissions as proven by different experts and agencies [1] [2] [3].<p>Why? Because we have improved our gas emission limits to a level that most car manufacturers couldn't reach over the short run. Take the example of European car makers. The European Commission started to really regulate car emissions in 2010. At that time, car makers were faced with dropping sales (double crisis 2008 and 2010), stable/slightly increasing costs (wage inflation and poor labour market flexibility - German is an exception in Europe) and stable/slightly decreasing prices (due to competition and few new vehicles). In this context, how can you expect car makers to invest in "traditional cars" to reduce gas emissions and in electric and autonomous vehicles to fight against the competition of tech car companies like Tesla or Google. That is just not possible.<p>So who is responsible? Of course VW and other car makers are all responsible for that mess and the disastrous consequences on environment. But WE are also responsible: we want safer, cleaner, cheaper and stronger vehicles from traditional car makers but but you can't have everything all at once. Tesla can do it because that they start from a "blank page", with no turnaround costs. For VW, GM, Toyota, that's another story. Maybe we should just keep that in mind before charged them with a "corporate death penalty"...<p>[1]<a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-wasnt-the-only-company-rigging-emission-levels-says-expert-a6668611.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-w...</a>
[2]<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/all-top-selling-cars-break-emissions-limits-in-real-world-tests" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/all-top-sel...</a>
[3]<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/news/do-all-automakers-cheat-on-their-mpg-tests/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbsnews.com/news/do-all-automakers-cheat-on-their...</a>
The report this morning said the government gets $5b for environmental clean up and customers get $10b in fixes or buy backs.<p>We'll see.<p>There was a GM settlement like this (the pickup gas tank problem) and customers with existing pickups got a coupon good for $1000 off the price of a new pickup. So GM gets to sell you a new pickup and probably keeps any rebates or low financing.<p>Also the recent Ticket Master settlement for $420M. There's a daily allotment of coupons worth $5 off the ticket price on select concerts (read: not the popular ones) that are buried in a series of hard to follow links. They still have the same service charges like before, they're just more transparent about it.
Not sure why the government attorneys should get paid anything here. Government was so much incompetent here that they failed to catch VW well in time, besides arresting few people in VW I think some people from the government side need to be fired too.<p>The only worry here is that attorney generals might end up with more resources to harass small people now.
I lament the days where HN was a place for intelligent discussion. Today the top post to submissions like this is an idiotic populist gut feeling, complete with dubious metaphors, calls for violence, a complete lack of any understanding of why things are the way the are and how we got there, as well as a blissful ignorance of proposed and/or tried solutions to age-old problems.<p>There must be something in the water these days that spurs these insults on sane discourse, I have a vague feeling of recognition when going over current events in politics across the world the last few weeks...