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Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

42 pointsby ytNumbersalmost 9 years ago

19 comments

greenyodaalmost 9 years ago
Previous discussions:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12020506" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12020506</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12001730" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12001730</a>
anu7dfalmost 9 years ago
Is there possibly more to this story? As it stands it looks like the interns made a polite request and fired for it. I understand the &quot;intern is a guest&quot; argument, but he&#x2F;she is also a future employee playing that part and would like to be treated as such. If any polite request is countered by firing I can&#x27;t imagine that will be a good place to work.
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dalyalmost 9 years ago
Mad Men: I worked at IBM Office Products Division Headquarters in the 1970s. Dress code was full suit with a white shirt. I was a systems programmer on the IBM 360 Mainframe. One day I walked from my office, into the hall, to the print room 2 doors away without my suit jacket. I got &quot;written up&quot; (a very bad thing).<p>In those days even IBM Field Service Engineers who repaired Selectric Typewriters wore suits. Their shoes were so well shined you could see your face in them.<p>These days I work from home. Sometimes I walk the hall to the cafeteria (the kitchen) without my suit jacket. I expect to be written up sometime soon.<p>Here&#x27;s a clue a very senior manager (Ralph Gomory, IBM Research Division President) once gave me...<p>Managers make decisions. Only go to management with your need for a decision and always present the options.<p>They went to management with what was, in essence, a complaint. Worse, it was a complaint that had nothing to do with the business. Clearly they were not keeping the business uppermost in their priority queue. So management made a business decision and fixed the problem.<p>We had a &quot;mass revolt&quot; among the systems programmers across all of the IBM internal sites. We would only get &quot;upgraded processors&quot; after the customer returned an old one. We were working on trailing edge equipment. Unfortunately our internal memos (the &quot;Tandem Memos&quot;) got leaked to Computer World (the big newspaper of the day). I got called &quot;on the carpet&quot; by senior management. I expected to be fired.<p>Fortunately IBM Corporate management saw that we were complaining about the business, not about personal issues. They changed the policy and we got leading edge equipment.<p>Mass protests sometimes work but they need to focus on improving the business. Unless you&#x27;re in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter.
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jrowleyalmost 9 years ago
I got a job recently that requires business formal dress code. It&#x27;s was a little frustrating until I read somewhere that by wearing dress clothes your are allowing yourself to kind of be branded by the company and in that way I appreciated it because it allows me to partition my identity into work and nonwork. Part of me still thinks I&#x27;d be more productive and happier in my normal street clothes though.
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heptathorpalmost 9 years ago
How is this newsworthy? Some company (not named) fired some interns? Oh I see, this is an excuse to have yet another commentary about how millennials are so self-entitled.
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Houshalteralmost 9 years ago
According to the article they didn&#x27;t even disobey the dress code, or cause any real commotion. They just sent a letter just asking for a rule to be changed slightly for practical reasons.<p>Is it really ethical to fire an entire group of people for merely questioning a rule? Is this really evidence they are &quot;entitled&quot; as comments here are saying? Perhaps the letter was worded very rudely?
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analog31almost 9 years ago
Anecdote: When I was an intern in the 80s, at a large mainframe computer facility, there was no dress code. But at that time, there was a widespread rumor that people who dressed better, were treated better. I got a couple pairs of polyester pants and some button down shirts at a discount store. The other interns wore jeans, tee shirts, and sneakers.<p>Sure enough, I was treated better. While the other interns were crawling around pulling cables, I got to sit at a desk and program a computer.<p>Wearing business attire also got me better treatment when I needed it, such as dealing with some bureaucracy, or even retailers.<p>I&#x27;d be interested in knowing if this was still the case. If it&#x27;s important enough to be fired for, I&#x27;d spend a few more bucks and dress nicer, as an investment, especially around performance review time.
projectramoalmost 9 years ago
I really want to know what the field is and what the internship was.<p>Not sure why - maybe other HN commentators can help - but my attitude would not be the same if they were bankers, coders or meat packers.<p>Maybe because there are social expectations of what people wear for certain jobs.
enkitoshalmost 9 years ago
I&#x27;m really surprised how many people in the comment section of this article defend the facist acts of this company. As if controlling how you dress is not a big deal, it&#x27;s actually a very big deal. &quot;Welcome to the real world kid&quot;, indicating this is somewhat a childish behaviour. Well if this is the real world it needs to be told that this is not acceptable.<p>So I&#x27;m a programmer and a transvestite meaning that yes I like to wear what is considered to be women&#x27;s clothing. Basically I just like to wear whatever I like and makes me feel comfortable whether it was designed to be used by men or women. Most days I&#x27;m lazy in the morning so I put on very casual clothing but I decided that every Monday I would wear something extreme so I wear dresses, colourful skirts, stockings, whatever. I wanted to do this because of two reasons. First off Mondays can be very grey and boring. People return from their weekend holiday and generally feel a bit depressed having to start this weekly routine again. The other reason and the most important one is that we are to be accepted whatever we choose to wear. If a person cannot accept what I wear it&#x27;s really their problem not mine. The company I work for is very flexible and open minded about these sort of things but if anyone would tell me to stop doing this I would quit immediately, no questions asked.<p>The company that you work for does not own you. Your boss is not your parent why should he&#x2F;she get to limit your freedom of expression by telling you what to wear? Especially if you do not have to deal with customers (of course I understand that companies can have rules when their employees are facing customers that&#x27;s a totally different story).<p>I don&#x27;t know how your jobs are but I feel in mine I generally contribute a lot of time, effort and talent to it. A progress made in something I contribute to does not just happen because the company planned it. I can accept that I stay on the same wages while people higher in the hierarchy benefit greatly from something I achieved. That&#x27;s just how companies work and I get paid well, I&#x27;m not complaining. However I will never accept someone trying to have affect on my appearance, not even as an intern. Sure interns have to prove that they are fit for the job but that goes for the work they provide, has nothing to do with what they wear.<p>And this has nothing to do with millennials or how they are self entitled. This is about basic human rights of all generations. Companies get 9 hours of our daily lives they shouldn&#x27;t also get to choose what&#x27;s in our wardrobe.
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shaftoealmost 9 years ago
Where do they work that still has a strict dress code?<p>Maybe I&#x27;m just in the tech industry bubble, but this seems extraordinarily strange for interns, who likely weren&#x27;t external sales or consultants or one of the few holdovers where suits and sport coats are still a thing.
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SFJuliealmost 9 years ago
Hum Short sleeves and shorts have a positive impact on ecology and money savings. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cool_Biz_campaign" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cool_Biz_campaign</a><p>I mean concerned citizens are hammered between increasingly enforced orders of being a good citizens (that don&#x27;t pollute or be honest), while companies may make them do stuff that makes them bad citizens (pollution or tax frauds).<p>And the more a citizen does not comply with either one or the other role he gets more and more hammered down.<p>This world is crazy.
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havellaalmost 9 years ago
The key here is signaling. The interns showed that either they don&#x27;t understand the game or that the have an &#x27;union&#x27; like attitude towards employment. Either way not atractive for an employer.
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dingo_batalmost 9 years ago
I think they shouldn&#x27;t have complained about something that everyone was following, and a formal code is not very uncommon. I also think that firing everyone point blank just because they wrote a letter is an extreme overreaction. They could have been lectured on professional behavior instead and I&#x27;m sure most of them would have understood.
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throwanemalmost 9 years ago
I&#x27;ve never understood the mindset in which something as trivial as what you wear to work actually seems like a big deal.
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ryan_mass18almost 9 years ago
This story made me so happy. I am so sick and tired of the coddled very vocal minority that is taking over our colleges, so I say we all stand up and give these managers a standing ovation. Thank you ladies and gentleman I am so proud of fellow working Americans like me.
freddie14almost 9 years ago
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magoonalmost 9 years ago
Unrelated, but Yahoo may be desperate for page views if they&#x27;re auto-refreshing several times while I&#x27;m trying to read the article.
ohnomrbillalmost 9 years ago
I would fire them too, with these reasons:<p>1. The interns saw a dress code violation and escalated immediately, without informing the out-of-line employee.<p>From the original blog post [0]:<p>&quot;I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code.<p>I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it.&quot;<p>I&#x27;m certain the interns did not ask this coworker why they came in wearing non-standard shoes, because management had to tell them about the disability after the fact. Going directly to management to censure a coworker without discussing the issue with the coworker is sometimes justified. Minor dress code violations are not an instance where that behavior is justified. If this isn&#x27;t apparent to the interns, that raises questions about their judgment.<p>2. The interns persisted in making it an issue after the first rejection.<p>Again, there are some workplace situations where it is appropriate to keep raising an issue after your first proposal is rejected. Minor dress code violations are not one of those situations. Again, from the blog post:<p>&quot;I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code.&quot;<p>The proposal which led to their termination was not the first discussion of the issue. They asked, management considered their request and came to a decision. They then took more time (presumably out of the workday, though this is not clear) to write a petition restating the request. Continuing to focus on a very minor issue at the expense of more important things is another strike against their judgment.<p>3. The interns asked for much more leeway than the original infraction.<p>The coworker who inspired their petition wore non-standard shoes, hardly a large violation of the dress code. In response, &quot;[The interns] requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and&#x2F;or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code.&quot;<p>Seeing one employee wearing non-standard shoes is not an endorsement of a less-stringent dress code by management. It is odd that they take the dress code so seriously, yet take the example of one employee not wearing leather shoes as a sign that the dress code can be relaxed to exclude suits. That hypocrisy on the part of the interns is at least as bad as any perceived hypocrisy on the part of management.<p>All of these lapses in judgment are bad enough to warrant censure. If an employee did this, counseling would be in order. But interns are explicitly not full-time, salaried employees - it is a trial run. (I don&#x27;t take Alison Green&#x27;s view that they are guests, but they aren&#x27;t full employees either.) If the company&#x27;s goal in having internships is to evaluate potential employees, then a lapse in judgment like this might mean that the company&#x27;s interest is to let them go before the official end date.<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.askamanager.org&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.askamanager.org&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;i-was-fired-from-my-inter...</a>
awtalmost 9 years ago
Proto SJWs.