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House Passes Health Care Reform

152 pointsby Xichekolasabout 15 years ago

20 comments

grandalfabout 15 years ago
One thing that bothers me about taxes is that they are around 20-30% of profits. If you take on a business partner and give him/her 20%, you expect something in return.<p>What do we get for our taxes? Wars and social programs that will be bankrupt long before we can benefit from them. (roads, etc., are &#60; 1%).<p>I would be OK with paying the taxes for social programs if I thought those programs would be sustainable into my old age, but they aren't and nobody seems to care, even though this is widely known.<p>So when you write the IRS a big check, you are paying for old people, and when you are old you will not receive the same treatment.<p>By the way, most of the cost of healthcare is in areas where the money has very little yield, such as end of life care for the elderly, bypass operations, stents, and statins. If people actually had the opportunity to consider the value of healthcare, reform would be nothing like what it is now.<p>Next time you see an old person eating bacon and eggs in a restaurant, picture that person's bypass operation, years of statins, and excessive end of life care that you are paying for... and think to yourself how perverse "reform" is.<p>Meanwhile, there are millions of so-called "illegal immigrants" who can't even call the police if they are assaulted or abused (for fear of deportation) being left out of the reform.<p>Most of your income taxes go to wars and medicare, and most of the healthcare reform goes to the practitioners who practice useless surgeries and interventions on a vulnerable population of elderly.<p>The "reform" bills don't change anything, they just transfer even more of the wealth of young people to the elderly and their exploiters.
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kgrinabout 15 years ago
For all of the talk about the impact of higher cap gains taxes on startups, the far more important impact is likely to be that potential founders will have a (slightly) easier time leaving their jobs and purchasing insurance on a less-broken individual market.
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aresantabout 15 years ago
I promise +1 Karma to the first person that puts together an infographic actually explaining where, exactly, $100 billion a year of tax payer money is going to go, and what we are going to get in exchange.<p>I am all for affordable healthcare for everybody, just desperately afraid of how the gov't typically overspends.
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defenabout 15 years ago
So I opposed this bill, but now I have an honest question: Rationally speaking, shouldn't I cancel my health insurance? I'll pay the fine, which is way less than my current premiums, and I'll just wait until something goes wrong to buy insurance, since I can't be turned down.
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luigiabout 15 years ago
Another way this bill affects readers of HN: Parents can keep children up to 26 years old on their health insurance. Previously, the age limit was determined by individual insurance companies or individual states.
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hzlzabout 15 years ago
[I posted this on the other thread, which seems to have been deleted as a dupe. Sorry if it's against protocol to re-post. But I tried to find both sides, good-and-bad wrt startups.]<p>Some discussion of the impact on startups in the thread at <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1208019" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1208019</a><p>While it didn't discuss all of these, it seems to me that the things that will directly impact startuppers:<p>Pros<p>- Community rating, no recision, etc will make it easier for people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage. For people who have pre-existing conditions (or who have kids who have pre-existing conditions) and don't have a spouse at a bigco and want to do startups, it makes it possible.<p>- Might also make it easier for bootstrappers to get coverage.<p>Cons:<p>- The new taxes are concentrated on capital gains, so will tax startups and angel investors most of all. [This bill proposes a 3.8% increase on cap gains. The administration is also planning to change the regular cap gains from 15 to 20%, so if everything passes the rate will go from 15% to 23.8%, or a 58.6% increase.]<p>- Shifts costs from the older to the younger, so most startups here will pay more.<p>- In realistic scenarios, will probably increase the deficit, affecting interest rates. But that's long-termand not clear.<p>Pro or con, depending on what you think:<p>- Mandatory coverage will require that you have coverage during a bootstrapping phase.<p>A mix of good and bad for startups, depending on where you are in the process.
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dryicerxabout 15 years ago
A startup/small-business related point on the bill is <i>"A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers."</i><p>Just trying to make the top story in HN at least a tiny bit relevant to HN...
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rajatabout 15 years ago
Why should the average 20-30+ year old even carry insurance? The penalty is only $250 a year, rising to $750 in a few years. They can't deny you insurance based on pre-exiting issues. So why not just pay the penalty, which can be substantially less than the policy, until you have an issue?
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aresantabout 15 years ago
An interesting aside - house dems tacked onto this bill an overhaul of student lending which eliminated $60b of private lending in exchange for a wholly gov't controlled program:<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/21/AR2010032103548.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03...</a>
andybakabout 15 years ago
You've got some incredibly complex proposals being thrown into an incredibly complicated system (and by that I mean the entirety of the social, political and economic realm - not just health-care).<p>The law of unintended consequences is going to play out here massively. Not only is it an intractable problem to predict the outcome from our perspective but it will be near-impossible for historians in decades hence to look back and separate which of their present society's ills were caused by this bill or by the million other factors that occurred in the intervening years.
jacoblylesabout 15 years ago
It's going to be interesting to see if the Supreme Court finds that the Constitution allows the Federal government to force people to buy health insurance. With a 4 liberal, 4 conservative, and 1 swing vote split, they could go either way.<p>One thing's for sure, this bill will be challenged.
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grandalfabout 15 years ago
We should all be wary of the mandate. The uninsured used to be victims, and soon they will be criminals.
InclinedPlaneabout 15 years ago
Missing in this thread so far is a discussion of whether or not this bill is even remotely constitutional.<p>Not only does it seemingly institute a poll tax, it stretches the "commerce clause" of the constitution beyond all reasonable limits, it violates the 10th amendment, and article 2 section 8.<p>But I suppose all of that will become irrelevant in our glorious new future where the life of every citizen of the US is dependent on the efficiency, fiscal discipline, and humane kindness of federal and state bureaucracies. Indeed, this is a future I think we all look forward to, as all of these glorious institutions have provided a hearteningly robust history exemplifying all of those qualities to the fullest. Haven't they?
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eserorgabout 15 years ago
Pre-Market U.S. Stock Futures: <a href="http://money.cnn.com/data/premarket/" rel="nofollow">http://money.cnn.com/data/premarket/</a>
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tbrooksabout 15 years ago
In order to bring down the cost of health care, the government would have to operate the system more efficiently than the market does. I can't think of <i>anything</i> the government operates more efficiently than the market does.
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hauptabout 15 years ago
What's interesting to me is that the thing passed with absolutely no Republican support whatsoever.<p>This insane partisanship cannot last.
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SlyShyabout 15 years ago
I sometimes wonder if these stories belong here, due to the incendiary properties and tangential relationship to start-ups. Not that I don't think Hacker News could handle the discussion more or less maturely.
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DanielBMarkhamabout 15 years ago
I have been biting my tongue on other venues regarding this bill, which is a good sign it's probably not a good idea to discuss here.<p>Having said that, I'll put on my business hat and begin adapting. What's this mean for my startup?<p>1) Those of you who say the country is waiting for affordable insurance until startups take off are smoking crack. It's a great benefit, sure, but young folks don't need health insurance and startups are lucky to keep the lights on, much less pay fines to have everybody insured. The process of getting new employees may greatly be enhanced, but we need a thousand pre-employee startups for every one looking for employees, so that's where to look for impact, not with insurance. Not sure there is any impact at all for dirt-poor young startups. It should be interesting how the income requirements work -- can you get 15K in investments and keep that for operating? Or does that make you rich enough to start having to pay fines? Having said all of that (which you might hate), it's a great thing to keep your insurance.<p>2) Those of you saying that it's the end of Western free civilization are completely overstating the case as well. It's going to add 16 thousand new IRS agents, sure, and there will undoubtedly be new regulatory burdens associated with hiring employees and growing. The key metric to watch here is public debt. We're in a debt explosion and, to some, this just pours gasoline on the fire. If that assumption is true, and I believe it is, then watching the national debt rating could be an early indicator that different business configurations might be better than locating and operating in the states. (That doesn't mean you can't start out here, just once in growth mode getting the hell out of Dodge might be worth it) If the country is going broke, sooner or later somebody is going to come looking for any profits you might be making. I'm not saying it is or it isn't. I'm saying that it looks like a legit concern to me -- you can do the math.<p>3) Medical and insurance discussions will now become political ones. In other words, somebody has to say "no" in order for any kind of health service plan to work without going broke. It used to be those people were the insurance companies. It was a lot of fun hating the insurance companies. Now that we're regulating the insurance companies like utilities, however, that person is going to be some bureaucrat somewhere. Your best access to him, if you have an employee with a complaint or are looking for some kind of change, is probably through your Congressman, giving your local Congressional weasel even more power than he currently has. This means all startups, from dollar one, need to have some face time with their Congressperson if at all possible. Increasingly he/she is the guy who influences more and more details of operating -- bandwidth availability, insurance standards (now), investment criteria, etc.<p>I hope that sounded reasonably neutral. I certainly didn't feel angry while writing it. While the immediate impacts are very low, over time I think this is a major change in the country's direction. Small business guys need to pay attention.
abrown28about 15 years ago
well... 234 years was a good run.
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patrickgzillabout 15 years ago
I think the Amish will suddenly start gaining a lot of new, adult members.<p>This bill is an abomination.
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