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Ask HN: Any experience with defiant children?

36 pointsby rymohralmost 9 years ago
My oldest son is now 6 years old and grows more defiant by the day. He frequently tries to physically hurt me, his mom, and his younger sisters (ages 1 and 3).<p>We&#x27;ve tried the whole &quot;natural consequences&quot; thing and he doesn&#x27;t care. He just uses it as an excuse to get angrier and call you names.<p>Timeouts don&#x27;t work either. It&#x27;s gotten to the point that we cannot get him to settle down without physically restraining him. I literally tied him to his bedpost this weekend so he would stop slamming doors and breaking stuff in his room while he was supposed to be on timeout.<p>Since the HN crowd comes from such a diverse background, I was hoping someone out there has experience with this kind of behavior and can offer some advice. None of the methods we know of are working and he is quickly wearing our family down to the bone. I&#x27;m not sure how much more my wife can take.

22 comments

mindfulgeekalmost 9 years ago
Being a parent can be super hard. It sounds like your wife could use some down time and space from your son. Please encourage her to go out with a friend, get a pedicure or do something that will fill her cup.<p>I have a high needs 8 year old. I find there are certain things that always trigger her -- poor sleep, hunger, watching TV&#x2F;playing video games, too much play with other people. It takes a lot of discipline to keep these in balance, but the effort pays off most of the time.<p>As far as discipline goes, every child has different needs and every parent has their own style. Most likely there is an underlying cause to the behavior -- be it developmental, physical, emotion -- and as parents we rarely know the true cause.<p>&quot;Time in&quot; rather than &quot;Time out,&quot; reading together, going outside in nature can all be healing.<p>Hand in Hand Parenting has some good gentle discipline resources. &quot;Raising Your Spirited Child&quot; or &quot;The Highly Sensitive Child&quot; may be good resource to assess your son&#x27;s temperament.<p>The &quot;Your X-Year Old&quot; series of books is often a good measuring stick to figure out age expected behaviors.<p>Time ins, punishment, rewards, etc are all linked to short term wins -- not long term success. &quot;Unconditional Parenting&quot; is one of my favorite books on the subject.<p>Finally, if this is a new behavior, it is possible there was an outside catalyst -- not what a parent wants to think about. Do work on giving your son tools to communicate -- words, drawings, a good understanding of his biology (age appropriate). Having a neutral professional he can talk to is helpful as well.<p>Good luck -- what a lucky son to have a father so humble as to ask for help.
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andymurdalmost 9 years ago
My son went through a similar stage when he was just learning about his own anger.<p>Once we all realised that he didn&#x27;t want to be angry it got a lot easier for everyone. We gave him words and guidance to let him analyse his anger, helped him to try different means of coping with his feelings and then incentives to apply those tools.<p>BTW StackExchange&#x27;s parenting community[0] is a good place to find answers to issues like this.<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;parenting.stackexchange.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;parenting.stackexchange.com&#x2F;</a>
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rubyfanalmost 9 years ago
Hang in there. I have a 5 year old who went through a phase like that. Mom gets really worked up and short tempered due to his acting up, talking back, slamming doors, etc. In our situation I observed that the escalation and increasing punishment didn&#x27;t accomplish much. What worked in our situation was to try to understand what was driving his behavior and getting him to talk about what he was feeling and to try to get him to understand I would help him. He still has a tendency to some odd behavior but he&#x27;s 5 and we are all a bit weird at that age. I&#x27;m hopeful it&#x27;ll pass.
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gluggymugalmost 9 years ago
Kids sports. It&#x27;s a stress reliever and teaches them discipline, respect for rules, and social skills with other kids.<p>I actually coach kids from ages 6 - 12 in Judo but team sports can be good also. It&#x27;s rewarding to see kids mature mentally through training in sports. I have had some real problem kids improve their behaviour over time.<p>Once they get to about 6, they are mentally ready to learn an organized sport and the challenge is good for them.
danielvfalmost 9 years ago
This is a really a hard place to be. It&#x27;s great that you recognize that there is a problem, are working to fix it, and are moving your schedule around to give your wife a break.<p>Somewhere in our firstborn&#x27;s terrible twos, my wife and I also were trying everything, and nothing was working. Here&#x27;s the big thing I figured out:<p>I&#x27;m used to working with computer programs and computers. If you give computers the right input, you get the right output. Right then and there. Kids are not nearly that deterministic. When you have a big issue like this, you can do the exact, perfect, correct action, and your son would still likely respond badly. This makes it really hard to judge how good your actions are when you naturally measure your actions by your son&#x27;s responses. This results in a desperate flailing around trying to find something that works.<p>With our son, I finally realized that I had to just make a plan with the best I knew so far, stick to it, and keep a good humor throughout. A change in my child&#x27;s thinking will pretty much only happen when they decide to change. You create the conditions where there&#x27;s obvious, immediate feedback, avoid turning it into a personal fight, and one day they&#x27;ll wake up and stop battling.<p>(If you&#x27;d like to talk specifics, or anything else, feel free to email me.)
new_hackersalmost 9 years ago
I would recommend trying to show the defiant child that he really does need others.<p>If he tears up his room, then remove anything you care about and let him tear the rest up.<p>If he is not nice and polite during mealtime, then he does not eat. Or the meal that is provided is very basic, and must be eaten in the room.<p>Eventually you may have to remove all forms of pleasure, including toys, games, nice clothes, etc.<p>During this process, communicate that you all love him, but do not like how he is acting. Explain that nice polite behavior will be rewarded. You will eventually feel like you are running a small jail, but eventually it will sink in.<p>Also hard work is very good at wearing kids out. If you have the opportunity then digging a hole is good therapy. Make him dig a good hole before he can have dinner, and it must be done right, or back to the room. After dinner, make him fill it back up. Once he starts correcting, give more useful chores like sweeping floors.<p>Keep up the communication, and work on directing the energy towards physical activities and praising polite behavior. Perhaps a game of horse with dad would be a good reward.<p>Good luck!
danieltillettalmost 9 years ago
Having read through all the comments and your responses it appears your son is capable of controlling himself, but knows he can get away with his behaviour in private. There is only one solution which is for him to learn that his private behaviour is not going to be tolerated any more. How you do this is up to you and your wife, but once you go down this path do not turn back.
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fasteoalmost 9 years ago
I have a child with severe ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)<p>My only advice: Seek professional assistance. Now.
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watmoughalmost 9 years ago
Get him drawing or some other outlet.<p>Is he on the autism spectrum. The right teacher or school program might transform him. Please ffs stop restraining him.
sharmialmost 9 years ago
There have been lots of good suggestions.<p>I am just adding to that. I do not know your real situation so I am just extrapolating. It could be that his siblings are taking a good share of parental attention that was once fully his. Especially his mother&#x27;s.<p>If so, you will need to patiently work with him to show you are fair to all kids. Once the mother is free enough to spend time with him, this behaviour will subside. She will currently be having her hands full with the little ones and you might have to pitch in.<p>With time and patience he will be back to his calm self. Next to your 3 and 1 year old, he might seem older but remember that he is still just a kid and not too emotionally different from a 3 year old.<p>When, the going gets difficult, remember this too shall pass and some time in the future, you will use this experience to help out another harried parent!<p>Outdoor free play can release some of the kid&#x27;s pent-up energy and that certainly helps<p>Ensure the kid is getting enough sleep too.
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dzdtalmost 9 years ago
I have a five-year-old with a big defiant streak. Every kid is different, and what works for one kid or one parent won&#x27;t necessarily work for another.<p>One strategy that works sometimes is defuse and distract. When the kid is fighting against you and not listening, go to &quot;oh, so you want to be tickled&quot; and get them laughing long enough to forget that they were mad or defiant.<p>Or suggest silly alternatives -- put his pants on his head if he fights getting dressed, or pretend-feed his food to the teddy bear, and the plant, and the microwave, etc., if he won&#x27;t eat it.<p>Timeouts with the kid alone don&#x27;t work well for us either; but sitting with them and waiting until they sit still and settle down does sometimes.<p>The hard part is always time. With enough patient one-on-one grownup time we can get through any one defiant fight well enough, but when you are in a rush and the other kids need attention too... it is hard.
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GFK_of_xmaspastalmost 9 years ago
The obvious thing to do is seek professional assistance, starting with a child psychologist and &#x2F; or a family therapist.
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mericalmost 9 years ago
<i>Timeouts don&#x27;t work either</i><p>This avoids the problem.<p><i>physically restraining him</i><p>This exacerbates the problem. How can anyone trust someone who physically ties them down? Can you start any kind of relationship like this, let alone continue one with your parent? One cannot respond to emotional abuse and physical abuse with emotional abuse and physical abuse, and expect the relationship to improve.<p><i>natural consequences</i><p>Googling this.<p><pre><code> Natural consequences are the inevitable result of a child&#x27;s own actions. For example, despite Dad&#x27;s urging him to put on his coat, Tommy goes outside when it&#x27;s cold without wearing a coat. The natural result is that Tommy gets cold. </code></pre> If you mean he wouldn&#x27;t wear a coat even if it&#x27;s cold, and ignores the cold, then by all means let him continue.<p><i>get angrier and call you names.</i><p>How do you feel when he is angry and call you names? Not the &quot;parent armor&quot; that you wear. Turn that off, turn off the &quot;I&#x27;m doing this for your own good&quot;, turn off the &quot;I&#x27;m parent so I can tell you what to do&quot;. But how do you, the child inside you, the one who feel secure in the love of your parents, feel inside? Let that child out. If you&#x27;re going to cry and stay at home in bed all day hiding because you can&#x27;t handle the emotions, then do that.<p>That&#x27;s natural consequence.<p>Avoid raising your voice, avoid coercing him to do your wish, avoid tieing him down. If he would stay at home than go with you to picnic, trust him, and let you or your wife stay at home to make sure he is safe, while the rest of the family continue on. Let him physically hurt you (but not your wife or other children), unless your life is in danger.<p>The fact that you put natural consequence in quotes, shows you can respect it a little more.<p>EDIT; But it is very good you are asking for help, it is on the path to becoming a good father.
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DanBCalmost 9 years ago
Webster Stratton parenting courses may be useful. These are available by referral in the UK to some families, but importantly they&#x27;re seen as so good that other parents pay to go through them.<p>There are probably books (I think there&#x27;s a book called &quot;wonder years&quot; or similar).<p>Mostly it seems to be about relentless praise and attention for good behaviour, where &quot;good&quot; includes &quot;not actively bad&quot;. Thos can include sticker charts and rewards, or &quot;listening beans&quot; (the child has a small pot which they decorate. You then give them a bean everytime they do somethin good or tehy listen well. When the pot is full they get a reward. You need to keep praising them for their positive behaviours - &quot;look how many beans you&#x27;ve got. Great job! You&#x27;ve worked really hard for this.&quot;<p>You might also want to consider seeking a diagnosis for ADD or similar.<p>There&#x27;s also &quot;how to talk so kids will listen&quot; which seems to get metioned in conversations like this.<p>(Sorry, on terrible monile at the moment so unable to provide links).
ak39almost 9 years ago
He needs attention.<p>Reassure him that he still is your &quot;Numero Uno&quot; in every way. Spend some one on one time with him doing things he likes. Take him movies, parks or zoo etc alone.<p>Reestablish that &quot;exclusive&quot; relationship you once had with him. He feels that your original relationship is under threat after those two Johnny-come-lately arrived on the scene ... one after another!<p>Good luck.
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rymohralmost 9 years ago
Thank you everyone that offered advice and encouragement on this. Here&#x27;s a few of the top resources that were shared for anyone else in a similar situation:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;parenting.stackexchange.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;parenting.stackexchange.com&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0743487486&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Reward...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1451663889&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen&#x2F;dp&#x2F;14516638...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Highly-Sensitive-Child-Children-Overwhelms&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0767908724" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Highly-Sensitive-Child-Children-Overw...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-Nurture-Developing&#x2F;dp&#x2F;034554806X&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-Nurtu...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Whole-Brain-Child-Revolutionary-Strategies-Developing&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0553386697&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Whole-Brain-Child-Revolutionary-Strat...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0062270451" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustra...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Calmer-Happier&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0345507983&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Ca...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Children&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0963386190" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Chil...</a>
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RogtamBaralmost 9 years ago
I&#x27;m pretty sure defiant children were not a &#x27;thing&#x27; when it was still socially acceptable to use corporal punishment.<p>And I don&#x27;t mean parents being sadists for the sake of it, but using it judiciously.<p>The lesson that resorting to violence results in even more violence thrown back at you and therefore violence is not something to start is a useful one.<p>Of course, this only works on people or animals with the mental faculties to understand this, so probably it&#x27;s useless on children less than 6 years old.
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dudulalmost 9 years ago
When he gets angry, kick him out of the house to go play soccer, or climb a tree, or whatever.<p>If he breaks things in his room, let him, and don&#x27;t buy new toys&#x2F;furniture.
jenkstomalmost 9 years ago
A new take on this, at least for me, is that a child explodes when they don&#x27;t have the skillset to deal with life. Try the book &quot;The Explosive Child&quot; by Ross W. Greene and see if it helps. If nothing else it&#x27;s a very different viewpoint on the problem, and one that lends itself to compassion.
Mzalmost 9 years ago
Are you using a punishment model or a discipline model? Some bright kids have a strong sense of justice and will react really poorly to being punished. The difference is this:<p>When my kids did something my husband did not like, he would take away a video game or lock up their controllers to make them suffer. He did not give them back until a set time had passed, even if their behavior improved.<p>In contrast, I took away a game or the controllers if the games per se were the cause of the problem. If they were fighting over a particular game or if they were taking a &quot;10 minute&quot; break from doing school work that turned into 2 hours of gaming. I would let them have it back if they resolved their problem or finished their school work.<p>My kids were vey loyal to me. They resented their dad and lied to him and so forth. They were not at all cooperative with a punishment model.<p>I have a few posts on a private parenting blog I am trying to develop and may eventually publish publicly. If you are interested in getting an invitation and reading what is there, send me an email with the subject &quot;Memoirs of a mom&quot;.
spdustinalmost 9 years ago
My background: I&#x27;m the parent of an 11 year old boy with &quot;highly verbal&quot; autism spectrum disorder (think Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory) and have made many connections with parents, children with all forms of special needs, and caregivers through peer groups, school interventions, etc.. He wasn&#x27;t always verbal, that came with therapy.<p>A peer of his in school, I&#x27;ll call him John, has a problem. To parents, his own and his friends&#x27;, he&#x27;s what one would politely describe as a terror. No respect for property or rights, no consideration for feelings, constant lashing out, and an almost masochistic &quot;bring it, bitch&quot; attitude to anyone who might suggest disciplinary action or consequences he might find unfavorable. He invites it.<p>He was diagnosed with <i>conduct disorder</i>. His parents&#x27; unpredictable methods of discipline, their lower income status compared to their peers, and lack of an &quot;always home when I&#x27;m home&quot; parent were significant factors in what developed into the behavior ultimately diagnosed as <i>conduct disorder</i>. At 7 years of age (3-4 years ago) he had already identified other kids who would support his behavior, even encourage it. There was even a time when substance abuse was considered, but his parents spied on him pretty hardcore (that didn&#x27;t help, either, I might add, and it often won&#x27;t) and determined that not to be the case.<p>I&#x27;ve followed this family for five years, and seen encouraging improvements since diagnosis last year. First, it qualified him as having a disability, so ADA kicks in and makes programs available to him in school, such as an IEP (individual education plan), disciplinary changes, and support staff&#x2F;interventions (sometimes called &quot;pull-outs&quot;, where he goes to a different classroom for part of his day). Second, a developmental pediatrician and pediatric psychiatrist worked with the family on a treatment program. One that, in his case, included prescription medication, and I mention that incidentally; I know many folks have problems with their child being given a prescription that changes their behavior or mental mode, but I don&#x27;t want it to go unnoticed that, for many, they can indeed help. In John&#x27;s case, it gave him enough of a &quot;mental quiet&quot; that the behavioral therapies at home and school would have a chance to reach his mind before his rage shut it out.<p>My strongest advice is: take him to a pediatric psychiatrist. ASAP. Even if you think he&#x27;ll fake it when he&#x27;s being tested. And be direct and honest when asked about his home environment. If the doctor doesn&#x27;t have all the data, they can&#x27;t help effectively, and it can only hurt your child&#x27;s future to get the wrong therapy.<p>And please, if you or your wife need pharmaceutical help to be calm and clear-minded with your child, talk to a doctor. Your son&#x27;s parents need to be calm and <i>consistent</i>, even though that means more work for you. Calmly remove the things he damages. Do not be goaded into a physical response, it <i>does not work</i>. If you have to take shifts standing in his doorway to keep him in his room, it&#x27;s far more effective than locking him in there.<p>Mom and dad need to be trusted again. Therapy <i>will</i> help.<p>Hang in there.<p>Also: read more about it here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aacap.org&#x2F;AACAP&#x2F;Families_and_Youth&#x2F;Facts_for_Families&#x2F;FFF-Guide&#x2F;Conduct-Disorder-033.aspx" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aacap.org&#x2F;AACAP&#x2F;Families_and_Youth&#x2F;Facts_for_Fami...</a>
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ddorian43almost 9 years ago
Put him in a muay-thai&#x2F;kickboxing&#x2F;mma gym. He&#x27;ll get disciplined and less angry.