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Volapük: A Cautionary Tale for Language Communities

80 pointsby anewhnaccountalmost 9 years ago

14 comments

fernlyalmost 9 years ago
He mentions Lojban[0] but ironically fails to note that Lojban itself is a fork of Loglan[1].<p>It came about because the late Dr. James Cooke Brown, inventor of Loglan, tried to keep tight control over its development by claiming intellectual property rights over it. However, Brown did not move fast enough toward finalizing, formalizing and documenting the language to satisfy some of the enthusiastic and inventive community that had formed around it.<p>A group of those enthusiasts kept the basic concepts and syntax of Loglan (which they deemed not copyrightable) and created a new basic vocabulary to replace the words that Brown or the Loglan Institute could claim ownership of. (Reminiscent of the IP disputes over APIs versus implementations.) The result was Lojban, which continues to have a small community and a collection of translated documents and tutorials.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mw.lojban.org&#x2F;papri&#x2F;Lojban" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mw.lojban.org&#x2F;papri&#x2F;Lojban</a> [1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Loglan" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Loglan</a>
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Impl0xalmost 9 years ago
One of my favorite things I&#x27;ve learned during my time studying Esperanto is the word &quot;volapukaĵo&quot;, which is constructed from &quot;volapuk&quot; as the root and means &quot;nonsense&quot;.<p>&quot;Tio estas volapukaĵo al mi&quot; is the Esperanto equivalent of &quot;It&#x27;s all Greek to me!&quot;
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bluejekyllalmost 9 years ago
&gt; lesson to be learned here: any language is only as strong as its community<p>Or maybe it&#x27;s better lesson is that no one tries to force the direction of the language. English is a bastard language, no one &quot;controls&quot;, even as much as our grammar school teachers try to force us to use the proper form. I always find it interesting that many people who learn English as a second language often understand and know the formal rules of the language better than those of us who&#x27;ve spoken it natively.<p>The examples that the OP point out are top down choices made by &quot;leaders&quot; of the community. Those leaders may have created the original programming language, but then fail to realize that it is not they that control it, it is the community. And communities often don&#x27;t want to be forced in one direction or another. What they like is for things to be grass roots, everyone in the community recognizes the issue, a proposal is put forward, and everyone then agrees and progress is made.<p>This is one reason that I&#x27;m enjoying Rust&#x27;s process, example: try!(..) was a macro based bandaid over the unwieldy nature of the strong error Result type in the language, it&#x27;s usage has created code which is ugly and verbose. Enter Swift with its ? syntax and everyone recognizes that this is a less verbose and cleaner way to represent the same concept. So Rust is <i>in the process of</i> adopting ? (It&#x27;s in nightly now I believe). I don&#x27;t think there is much controversy here, and the community recognizes the importance of adopting this language change (I read through the RFC and don&#x27;t remember anyone against it, just differences on the scope of its meaning).<p>In English there have been similar things, and the controllers have always tried to stop their usage, &quot;ain&#x27;t&quot; is a great example of that. English teachers across the US have always tried to stop its usage as a <i>fake</i> low class word, but it&#x27;s just too good and they ain&#x27;t going to stop it.
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lisivkaalmost 9 years ago
Russian (Russish, русский) language is example of success of artificial language.<p>It was language of books, used mainly in Orthodox churches, like Latin in Western Europe, but now it is spoken by hundreds of millions.
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bluejekyllalmost 9 years ago
&gt; Volapük was a hybrid of English, German, and French<p>I found this funny, because that&#x27;s basically what English is.
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chillacyalmost 9 years ago
Esperanto seems to have learned its lesson and made itself un-changable, but forkable.<p>&gt; The only basis of the Esperanto language binding on all Esperantists, which no one has the right to change, is the little work Foundation of Esperanto. If anyone deviates from the rules and models given in the said work, he can never justify himself with the words &quot;thus desires or advises the author of Esperanto&quot;.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Modern_evolution_of_Esperanto" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Modern_evolution_of_Esperanto</a><p>Changing the language too much is &quot;kontraŭ fundamento&quot;
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chrisfosterellialmost 9 years ago
&gt; there was another constructed language which once claimed nearly a million followers, making it the most popular constructed language of all time<p>Maybe a nitpick, but Esperanto (which essentially replaced Volapuk) is estimated to have around 2 to 10 million speakers and is generally considered to be the most common constructed language now [1].<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Esperanto" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Esperanto</a>
nxzeroalmost 9 years ago
Fall of languages is not bad thing. For example, without the fall of Volapük, it&#x27;s very possible that Esperanto would not have taken off, since much of the early growth of Esperanto was a result of Volapük speakers looking for a new constructed language.<p>If a community lacks reasoning, that is the real issue, not major battles, which might just means there is in fact a valid reasoning to split the community.<p>Keeping a community together just for the sake of doing so is a recipe for failure.
brudgersalmost 9 years ago
Language home page: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;volapük.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;volapük.com&#x2F;</a>
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jpatokalalmost 9 years ago
Well, there&#x27;s also the fact that Volapuk is rather hideous and imports most of the worst features of its source languages wholesale. Nouns and pronouns inflect into multiple cases (genetive, dative, accusative...), verbs have literally thousands of conjugations, gender is retained, etc. Even Esperanto is often accused of Latin bias, but Volapuk takes this to a whole new (well, old) level.
pipio21almost 9 years ago
At the time Latin was as universal in Europe as English is today. The Eulers and Newtons and Descartes spoke latin, in fact you can read it, today: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Pri...</a><p>Later German became the language of the philosophers and scientists and English the language of the practical engineering.<p>English was not or is not gradually becoming a universal language, but suddenly after the US of A won the WWII(and everybody else lost, for example British lost their empire).<p>After the war the US banned all scientific knowledge in German, and forced the use of English. Remember they took half the scientists of Germany with them(that later created their space program), the other half were taken by the Russians.<p>In (inland)Europe we used to measure height of a plane over ground in meters before and during WWII. Kilometers for horizontal distance. When (North)Americans won it became the ruler of the world and imposed horizontal distance in miles, and height in feet.<p>I speak several languages because I love to travel and it is completely different when you speak the native language. It is not a good idea or polite to only speak one language thinking that people should talk your language because it is &quot;universal&quot;, which usually means your country has intelligent nuclear weapons and drones that can draw any other country on their knees(or so you believe).<p>What I mean is that any empire will end, like any other empire has ended in the past, and things change over time.<p>I believe the Universal language of the future will be machines translating with small delay and helping people learn other languages much faster.
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susan_hallalmost 9 years ago
This is certainly relevant for Lisp programmers:<p>&quot;Contrarily, major schisms or breakdowns in the relationships and development of a language and its community are big warning signs that should make you think twice about the future of a language.&quot;<p>Related reading includes &quot;The Lisp Curse&quot;:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.winestockwebdesign.com&#x2F;Essays&#x2F;Lisp_Curse.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.winestockwebdesign.com&#x2F;Essays&#x2F;Lisp_Curse.html</a><p>And note that &quot;Why Lisp Did Not and Never Will Gain Enough Traction&quot; offers this alternative explanation:<p>&quot;Since there is so little pre choice, the glue that is supposed to hold a community together is too weak to draw enough people that would build up a momentum.&quot;<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kresimirbojcic.com&#x2F;2012&#x2F;08&#x2F;14&#x2F;why-lisp-did-not-and-never-will-gain-enough-traction.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kresimirbojcic.com&#x2F;2012&#x2F;08&#x2F;14&#x2F;why-lisp-did-not-and-ne...</a>
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iopqalmost 9 years ago
But as an author of the Slovianski pan-Slavic language, I don&#x27;t feel like this is a bad thing. Everyone who contributes on the forum has their own dialect:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;s8.zetaboards.com&#x2F;Slovianski&#x2F;forum&#x2F;38184&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;s8.zetaboards.com&#x2F;Slovianski&#x2F;forum&#x2F;38184&#x2F;</a><p>I prefer merging y and i, for example (although I don&#x27;t always follow it myself, I experiment a lot)
rurbanalmost 9 years ago
Citing the perl 6 fork leading to the decline of the whole language(s) is very interesting. What the author doesn&#x27;t know is that not only perl6 forked off, also 4 other perl5 forks appeared during the last year, which is a strong sign of an already dying community and language. I&#x27;m one of the forkers (cperl).<p>For me forking was a necessity since the perl5 community was not able to come up with any improvement at all since the author left 15 years ago. It rather managed to erode the codebase and the management (the perl5 &quot;asshole&quot; problem). &quot;Faith&quot; into the developers capabilities is a now a mandatory code of conduct point, even if the said devs did nothing to prove their capabilities in the last 15 years. Using religious arguments to hold people together might have worked in the middle ages and in a post-modern community. (perl is one, go figure).<p>On the contrary the perl 6 and perl 5 leaders are making cynical jokes about their future, to the end that a new backend or a new fork will make the language and the community stronger. (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;gmmVGPdcItM" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;gmmVGPdcItM</a> 2016 - &quot;The Ongoing Disaster That Is Perl 5‎&quot; - Ricardo Signes) Which is of course wrong. We don&#x27;t need Volapük and the Kerckhoff fork to show this.<p>There are many bad examples in the BSD land, the latest DragonflyBSD, and many more on debian forks.<p>Now to the arguments why to fork:<p>* perl5 argues that forking (experiments) are good, and if successful will lead to &quot;stealing&quot; the good parts.<p>This never happened so far with perl5. They rather blocked competing forks to submit bugfixes and discuss critical failures upstream. While the forks manage to enhance security, performance and add many wanted features (which were not added in the last 15 years since they were designed by perl6), upstream did nothing. It didn&#x27;t even merge the security fixes.<p>If a community is that broken, it needs to fork to be able to survive.<p>However with parrot, the perl6 backend, it worked fine. The unfriendly fork (MoarVM) eventually replaced parrot, using a much simpler architecture. This was an easy fork, because they could simply replace it upstream. No need to persuade the community to switch over.<p>* If a product is broken beyond repair, make a new one. People will switch eventually.<p>Do people use better ssl libraries over openssl? Some do, but most don&#x27;t. E.g for perl there&#x27;s not a single TLS library binding other than to OpenSSL&#x2F;NetSSLeay. No boringssl, no libressl, no PolarSSL (mbed TLS), no NSS. For crypto no libsodium.<p>Did HHVM survive? Well, the php devs eventually got off its ass and made an ever better version with PHP7. They didn&#x27;t steal much, they rather re-architectured the whole mess. This is the best example of a successful fork which strengthened everybody. Pressure. The GCC fork under schmorp to use the new intel Pentium intrinsics was also eventually successful.<p>I cannot say much about Python 3, only that the inherent VM problems where not solved at all and only the forks (pypy, Graal, mypy) are able to overcome that technical debt partially. ruby has it&#x27;s number of forks but is still paying for it&#x27;s ruby on rails meta-architecture disaster.