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The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

40 pointsby dwwoelfelabout 15 years ago

15 comments

fmotaabout 15 years ago
I knew it was going to come down to (fucking) Ayn Rand, when the author started discussing the primacy of senses.<p>Anyway, I think the author makes a bit of a straw man argument when saying that Dawkins' "moral Zeitgeist" doesn't determine a rational, consistent basis for morality. I don't believe that Dawkins was trying to show that.<p>I believe that Dawkins was trying to show that both religious and irreligious folks derive their morals from the same place for the most part: the moral Zeitgeist. This is a counter to the argument that religion is necessary for morality, because morality for most people is drawn from the Zeitgeist either way.<p>I haven't read Dawkins, so I may be wrong in my assertions of what Dawkins intended, but it feels like the author covertly (or accidentally) tried to shift the focus away from countering the "religion is necessary for morals" argument, onto a different topic (that of defining rational morals).
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wanderrabout 15 years ago
I could not get past this section: / Did these killers— and the millions of people in the Middle East who celebrated their actions— ack an innate conscience? Or did their innate consciences house different contents than those of Americans who reacted with horror to what they did?/<p>The argument these and other atheists are making is that religion is, by design, overriding any innate sense of morality we might have built in. Or as Steven Weinberg put it: /With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion/
msgabout 15 years ago
For the Tl;dr ers out there, here's the short version. And no, I don't agree that the Objectivists get off so easy...<p>The atheists claim to be able to explain ethics, but they provide no ultimate foundation for ethics. Instead they point to intuition, evolution, game theory and community standards. However they are confusing descriptive talk for normative talk.<p>Where the atheists criticize religion, they presuppose an ultimate foundation for ethics. That is, they can only criticize religious atrocities from the ground that religion provided for them.<p>However, the idea that we ought to do what we want to do magically fills in the holes.
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etheraelabout 15 years ago
The initial premise is somewhat absurd. If the current scientific origin of the universe theories are wrong it does not follow that the genesis myths of religions a-z are any more probable merely because of this wrongness. Setting out thus to debunk a scientific theory explaining origins does not at the same time validate biblical genesis.<p>In the same sense attempting to attack the foundations of an irreligious framework for morality does not thus cause the facts to shift to supporting the position that religion is the source of morality. One does not need to go far in abrahamic religious dogma to find moral law which is abhorrent to modern ethical standards and immediately disqualifies such religions as a candidate for an actual source of modern morality.<p>The article attempts goes through various contortions to reduce all the candidate sources of morality to "altruism guided by intuition". I've not had much connection with Hitchens' or Dennet's works so I can't comment there, but if you look at Sam Harris' latest presentation from TED on ethics he pretty much directly holds up philosophical utilitarianism. Dawkins also mounts a case of modern ethical behaviour in "The God Delusion" as a simple case of a set of behaviour which confers evolutionary advantages upon the adopting group, with much supporting evidence for this, there is nothing "mysteriously shifting" about this position.
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AmaroqWolfabout 15 years ago
I find it sad that almost every commenter here so far has not only defended the New Atheists, but they've also defended intuition and innate-conscience based morality.<p>You're doing the exact same thing the author of the article accused the New Atheists of. Stop defending emotion based morality and start arguing for rational, reality-based morality.<p>I'm still studying Objectivism myself, but as far as I know, Ayn Rand has already based morality in reality. The article stating this at the end doesn't seem to be intended as a baseless assumption. It's basically saying "Here's a reality-based morality. For its validation, see Rand's works." I'd listen to it and actually try to understand where Rand was coming from before attacking her. I see idiotic attacks on her philosophy every day, and not a single one of the attackers understands or has even tried to understand it.<p>If you think there's an alternative to Rational Egoism, base that alternative on facts, not on personal feelings or the whims of large groups of people.<p>Again, stop arguing for emotion based morality, and start basing morality on facts.
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dashtabout 15 years ago
I voted up this link (after it appeared on the front page) but precisely because I think it is such ridiculous hooey that it is worth commenting on. It's errors are abundant so I'll choose just one which, taken as paradigm, can be used to discover several others:<p>The author of the article quotes Hitchens as saying (I've added <i>emphasis</i>): "[C]onscience is innate," and `[e]verybody but the psychopath' has the `feeling' that this is so. This `innate conscience' is what makes murder and theft `abhorrent to humans <i>without any further explanation</i>'; it is what gives children an `innate sense of fairness'; and it is what informs each of us of our `duty to others.'"<p>Now, Hitchens is perfectly comprehensible there and there is ample objective empirical evidence to back him up. The author has made a fine enough paraphrase of one of Hitchens' main points. The author of the article immediately goes on to err very badly:<p>Let's pick apart his next few sentences:<p>"The notion of an `innate conscience' is, of course, not original to Hitchens; the history of philosophy is replete with appeals to a `moral sense' or `moral intuition' or `moral law within.'"<p>Pardon me but <i>philosophy has nothing to do with it</i>. Such philosophers as the author refers to are trying to <i>explain</i> the fact that, by in large, we know right from wrong. As Hitchens asserted, we know things about morality and we know that we know these things "without need for further explanation". The author of the article ignores those words and proceeds to assume, behind Hitchens' simple statement, an implicit explanation. Once he does so, he is no longer arguing against Hitchens, he is arguing against a straw-man.<p>To borrow an example from a writer I like: Suppose you and I are sitting at the bar of a pub, chatting about sports. One of the patron's very friendly dogs is sitting outside waiting patiently, tied to a parking meter. A fellow walks by on the sidewalk and without provocation kicks the dog, hard.<p>Now, do we need to discuss what in scripture forbids such an act? Do we need to question whether our Kantian faculty for moral reasoning rings true when it signals the evil of such an act? Or do we just immediately agree that "That ain't right" and perhaps step outside to confront the man what done it? Is <i>anything</i> added to our obvious and gut-level reaction by additional discussion of where, in principle, that reaction comes from? Or can we just stipulate that it was in fact wrong to kick the dog and that almost certainly intervention is called for?<p>We do not need God in order to decide that kicking the dog was wrong. We do not need Kant or Descartes. We do not need debate. "Hey, look: that guy just kicked that dog!" What more do you need? Perhaps the philosopher at the other end of the bar will say "No, perhaps he kicked the dog to prevent a larger tragedy." Perhaps the theist next to him will point out the dog's place as chattel in the divine order of things. Perhaps the evolutionary biologist will try to stay our intervention by pointing out that we are reacting to genetically programmed perceptions. Perhaps the Taoist will solemnly observe that the dog can not experience pleasure unless it also experiences pain. Have any of these stooges added anything worthy of the moment? No, of course not. The situation needs no discussion - no explanation. What would happen, in real life, is that a large number of patrons of the pub would rise to intervene - <i>and next to nobody would blame them</i>. And this would be a moral reaction. We know right from wrong when we see it laid bare. No further explanation needed.<p>In order to "argue" with Hitchens, the author posits an "explanation" for this knowing and then proceeds to tear apart that explanation: a kind of intellectual onanism.<p>I do not mean, to answer how the author of the article burbles on, that we always make right choices or that we always agree about what the right choices are. Of course we do not. We generally agree (though not universally) in recognizing extreme cases of sociopathy. We all make moral mistakes, often tragic. We all are sometimes slow if not entirely unable to recognize our mistakes. These are separate questions and positing God, Kantian moral faculties, evolutionary proscriptions, etc. -- these add nothing to the conversation with the possible partial exception of the evolutionary psychiatrists who can at least provide some partial post-mortem analysis of failings, sometimes.<p>The author continues:<p>"But although many have appealed to such a sense, none has ever been able to overcome the fact that it is observationally false that humans possess an innate sense of right and wrong: Many people, and not just psychopaths, make horrifically bad choices that ruin their own lives, the lives of others, or both."<p>How this contradicts Hitchens is a truth to be found only in the authors' own imagination. Yes, tragedy happens. And yes, not everything is clear cut, especially in the heat of a decision-making moment.<p>"And not all of these people know that their actions are morally wrong. On the contrary, many believe that their actions are morally justified."<p>None of which contradicts anything Hitchens' said. The author seems to have assumed that Hitchens was talking about, to sling jargon around, an infallible moral faculty present in all but psychopaths. Had Hitchens ever, anywhere, argued for such a thing the author would have a point. Hitchens didn't. The author doesn't.
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klodolphabout 15 years ago
I find the arguments presented poorly constructed and unsound. Examples:<p>"These and similar statements show that Hitchens equates morality with altruism" (does not follow from given quotes, furthermore this is a setup for a straw man argument)<p>"... it is observationally false that humans possess an innate sense of right and wrong: Many people, and not just psychopaths, make horrifically bad choices that ruin their own lives, the lives of others, or both." (this argument is unsound; the author states that since some people make bad choices sometimes, then humans must not know right from wrong innately. It's like saying "It's observationally false that humans possess eyesight: many people, and not just the blind, fail to see the mayonnaise when they go to the refrigerator even when it's right in the door.")<p>"Ironically, the claim to innate knowledge—the claim to “just knowing” something—is precisely what Hitchens and the other New Atheists condemn when they condemn faith." (Other than the author's misuse of the term "irony", I have not heard the "new atheists" put forth such an argument and the author does not put forth a citation or quote to support this claim. As I see it, rather than condemning innate knowledge, the "new atheists" condemn what they see as baseless claims of fact.)<p>"Hitchens subscribes to the idea that man is mentally and thus morally hampered by innate irrationality." A slight bit later, "If man cannot choose his actions, then he cannot have a guide to choosing his actions." So the author takes a quote from Hitchens where Hitchens says humans are "only partly rational" (Hitchen's words as quoted by the author) and then concludes that Hitchens thinks that man "cannot choose his actions" (I know that the phrase appeared after the word "if", but you can parse the full three paragraphs or so yourself).<p>I stopped reading the article at this point due to the high density of illogical statements. Stylistically, I find it in poor taste to capitalize "new atheists", but there's no accounting for taste.
jrockwayabout 15 years ago
I like this site. They dress up their publication to look like a scientific journal, and then write like they're in the middle of a 4chan thread.<p>Actually, 4chan is nicer because everyone there knows they're dumb. Nobody has let these folks know yet.
r0sabout 15 years ago
Hark! The sound of some blogger loudly boasting he discovered the classic Existential Dilemma. And thousands of years of philosophical thought cry out in the darkness.
mynameishereabout 15 years ago
<i>Why do these alleged men of reason join men of faith in appealing to mysticism as a basis for morality? The reason is simple: The morality they seek to defend, altruism, cannot be grounded in reason or reality.</i><p>Best to skim things like this. It takes him a long time to get to the thesis statement which can only induce eye-rolling.<p><a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/" rel="nofollow">http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/</a>
applicativeabout 15 years ago
Give up on Rand, she is a philistine. Try David Gauthier (amazon link: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/moralsbyagreement" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/moralsbyagreement</a> ) if you want a serious theory that might speak to you, if she does. Plenty of game theory to amuse, on your way to serious reflection!<p>I wonder about the plan of 'basing morality on reality'. In a way it can't be rejected of course, but it is a formula that is very easy to misread. There was a traditional distinction between 'practical' and 'theoretical' philosophy -- the origin of the familiar opposition practice/theory, but quite different. The associated epistemologies are very different.<p>Consider, to take a trivial illustration that doesn't reach so high as the ethical: my (practical) knowledge the I am typing something to Hacker News, and your (theoretical) knowledge of the same thing, if you are watching. Is my knowledge an effect of the 'reality' that I am typing something to Hacker News. Is it so to speak 'reality based', as yours certainly is?<p>Plenty of knowledge of reality, e.g. the layout of the keyboard, what has actually appeared on screen, etc. comes in, of course. But I am making this 'reality', I am making the thing that is cold external reality for you. The assymetry between your knowledge and mine in this case has parallels at the higher levels. Maybe Randism is true of Martians, for example. But even so that wouldn't be how the Martians know it. They wouldn't have 'reality based' knowledge of it. We would, if we could come to this knowledge by studying them.<p>Similarly, justice and mutual recognition belong to human life but we don't know this the way Martians would. There needn't be anything mystical in this.
zacharyvoaseabout 15 years ago
My biggest gripe with this article is that the ‘solution’ is introduced in the second-to-last paragraph. I’m a big fan of Ayn Rand, and I think the ‘New Atheists’ probably do have a lot to learn from Objectivism, since it seems a lot more internally consistent—nevertheless, in articles like these it should occupy more than just a footnote.
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ErrantXabout 15 years ago
This is a strong issue for me so I will attempt to be restrained.<p><i>In the wake of the religiously motivated atrocities of 9/11, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens have penned best-selling books</i><p>This wasn't a good start; I feel it is something of an invocation of a parallel to Godwin's law.<p>The middle bit spends a lot of time debunking the idea of innate morals. I happen to agree there; Hitchens is, I think, wrong in some respects (I only read him once; so there is almost certainly a subtle message as well). But the conclusions drawn are rather inane and, really, fall foul of the same mistakes the writer highlights.<p>I skipped to the end at that point to see the conclusion was "Ayn Rand" - that's a lot of words just to get to that point...
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roundsquareabout 15 years ago
Wow... full of logical errors...<p><i>Among the countless counterexamples one could cite against any claim to an “innate conscience” is the fact that the 9/11 hijackers regarded their murderous actions not as abhorrent, but as sublime.</i><p>Poor logic here. Hitchens would claim that it was their religion that perverted their innate sense of right and wrong. To search for such a sense, I can only imagine you would need to look at very young children and even then it would be hard to discount the cultural/upbringing factor.<p><i>The claim to “innate knowledge,” like the claim to knowledge through faith, is a form of mysticism, the claim to a non-rational, non-sensory means of knowledge.</i><p>Not if its been observed enough. You don't need to be able to explain something down to the quantum mechanical level to assert it exists.<p><i>How can religious belief be wrong if the “innate consciences” of billions of people tell them that it is right?</i><p>What? Historically, most religions were spread by a small number of individuals. How is this innate? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on the history).<p><i>If man’s ethical ideas were innate, if his biology predisposed him to irrationality, if he had no choice about whether to commit evil, then the entire field of morality—which presupposes that man does choose his actions—would not only be pointless</i><p>No one is claiming there is no choice, merely that our moral decision making procedure is imperfect and/or very flawed.<p><i>Why does an “ethical realist,” who claims to believe that ethical truths are waiting in reality to be discovered, insist that ethics must be grounded “intuitively,” via “irreducible leaps,” rather than rationally</i><p>In part, this might be because introspection is, in some ways, inherently self limiting. There is nothing logically incoherent about saying that "this is far as I can break things down."<p>The whole discussion of how senses are needed to even write a book is silly. You can't take someone's argument to an extreme and then point out how silly it is. The claim isn't (or shouldn't be) that "senses are useless" but that "our senses are not perfect receptors of the outside world."<p>Overall, the large problem is that the author is looking for a perfect answer to questions when the thought process behind it is still in its infancy.
w00plaabout 15 years ago
The thing I hate most in the world is pseudo-intellectual atheists that just <i>know</i> that they are right.<p>Many religions teach you that the goal is not to be a douche. Most college pseudo-intellectual atheists/internet atheists are douches.<p>I am/was an agnostic. At this point I am willing believe the exact opposite of Dawkins and his fellow atheist zealots - since I know that they are assholes.<p>They (like the Khrushchev of old) just replaced religion with their own zealotous dogma.
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