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Startup employees don't earn more

255 pointsby z0aover 8 years ago

19 comments

bunkydooover 8 years ago
I'm gonna be straight with y'all, I earn more as a post office mail carrier than I ever did as a programmer for a silicon valley startup with $1 million dollars seed funding. I also surprisingly have more freedom even though I work basically like a slave. Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. Sure, if you are in the right startup things might be different. I had a great valley experience - but it was all a façade, the next recession will really highlight the failures of silicon valley startup culture. Wall Street got pounded last time, and I'm sure I'll get downvoted night and day for saying this here - but I'm sorry guys, you are the new problem. Silicon Valley is the new Wall Street. There, I said it. Ironically I worked in both places before joining the postal service. So I do have perspective. My claims aren't baseless either, your startup that might even be funded at a million dollars like my employer's was is just a tax write-off for your investor when it fails. They are playing slots with your dreams, time, and skill - the only person who truly loses is you.
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cjover 8 years ago
If your #1 job criteria is compensation, do not work at a startup. You&#x27;ll be paid more at big companies.<p>If you don&#x27;t mind being paid a little less, and want the opportunity to be a part of building a company from the ground up, consider working at a startup. There will be a lot more ups and downs than at a company like Google. But at smaller companies, you&#x27;ll have the chance to have a material impact on the success of the organization instead of being just a cog in the wheel.<p>By no means am I saying you should accept a below market offer from a sketchy startup that offers no benefits and expects 12 hour work days (those unfortunately exist).<p>Disclaimer: I run a 6-person seed-stage company. To help keep our employees happy (and to be competitive with bigger companies when recruiting), we try to get as close as possible to big-company salaries, we don&#x27;t expect anything beyond 40 hrs &#x2F; week, 100% paid health benefits, 401k, 25 paid days off per year, snacks, food, full financial transparency, etc. (Not trying to self-promote here, mainly trying to communicate that not all small companies are bad just because they&#x27;re small).<p>Also consider that the day-to-day work at startup is dramatically different than the day-to-day work at a big company. For people who don&#x27;t mind being paid low $100k&#x27;s instead of mid $100k&#x27;s, the day-to-day work should be the main deciding factor when considering startup vs. large co. In my opinion, startups are more fun, you get to wear more hats since your role is likely less specialized, (ideally) there&#x27;s less politics, you can have a real impact on the success of the business while (hopefully) watching it grow, and learn a lot really fast along the way.<p>That said, the big company route definitely offers higher compensation and more stability, and makes a lot of sense for people who are a little more risk-averse.<p>Also +1 on viewing equity as a lottery ticket. When evaluating offers from a startup, try to maximize your equity in negotiations (ie. more lottery tickets), but the fact is the majority of startups will eventually shut down, so don&#x27;t use equity as a major factor when comparing offers between large and small companies.
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danielrm26over 8 years ago
This will surprise nobody on Hacker News.<p>The allure of startups isn&#x27;t a guaranteed 20% more than a regular company&#x27;s salary; it&#x27;s the possibility of 1000% more.
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philsnowover 8 years ago
As others have posted, people don&#x27;t go to small startups to earn more on average.<p>They&#x27;re not looking at the average or median, they&#x27;re looking at the 99%ile numbers, because they think the startup they picked has an angle or advantage, giving it a shot at a 99%ile exit.<p>80000hours&#x27; audience is clever enough to understand cumulative distribution functions or even just correlated sets of [25%ile, median, 75%ile, 90%ile, 99%ile] numbers.
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qwertyuiop924over 8 years ago
This should surprise nobody.<p>If I had my copy of Cryptonomicon at hand, I&#x27;d quote the bit about everybody being impressed Avi could let them sell out for roughly what they&#x27;d have made at a regular job.<p>Yes, even in the &#x27;90s, this was pretty well known.
djlocheover 8 years ago
It&#x27;s easier to get hired at an early stage startup because there are fewer hoops to jump through. You can then use that startup to build industry connections and get your next job via inside track referral through someone you know at a bigger &#x2F; more established company.
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parent5446over 8 years ago
This is just a minor annoyance, but the header image of this article, which has been used in other articles [0], is CC-BY 2.0 licensed [1], and yet is not attributed to the original author at all.<p>(Perhaps even more interesting is that it looks like it&#x27;s being used to depict a startup company environment, even though it&#x27;s actually a hostel in Amsterdam during the Wikimedia Foundation&#x27;s annual international hackathon.)<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;silicon.nyc&#x2F;code-academies-new-york-coding&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;silicon.nyc&#x2F;code-academies-new-york-coding&#x2F;</a> [1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;commons.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;File:Wikimedia_Hackathon_2013,_Amsterdam_-_Flickr_-_Sebastiaan_ter_Burg_(28).jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;commons.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;File:Wikimedia_Hackathon_...</a><p>EDIT: I misread the license. It&#x27;s CC-BY 2.0, not CC-BY-SA 2.0.
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manuelflaraover 8 years ago
To be honest, I don&#x27;t think startup employees (and by startups I don&#x27;t mean Dropbox, I mean companies who have to count the cash they spend) are low paid. Obviously a startup can&#x27;t pay like a company with tons of cash can. In tech and everywhere else. I like working at small companies because you get to do more things, because of the atmosphere, small team, agility, lack of bureaucracy, etc. Where I do think startup employees are getting absolutely screwed, specially in the US, is in the working hours. As an employee, you don&#x27;t have founder shares. You should just be able to work your 9-5 hours and call it a day. If the founders think there&#x27;s more work to be done, they can either prioritize better, hire more people, do it themselves, or just accept that not everything they want to do can be done with the resources they have. Period.
markbnjover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m working at my third startup, and money has never been close to the top of the list when deciding. First, I&#x27;m old enough and experienced enough to be skeptical about the pot of gold at the end of whatever. Second, my time is far more valuable than money, and how I spend it, who I spend it with, and what I am doing are much, much more relevant to me.
forgotpwtomainover 8 years ago
Obviously has been referenced a lot but still relevant: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;danluu.com&#x2F;startup-tradeoffs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;danluu.com&#x2F;startup-tradeoffs&#x2F;</a>
adamzernerover 8 years ago
This talks about aggregate earning rather than earning per unit of time. I think the latter is what people are&#x2F;should be interested in, and from what I understand, startup employees put in a lot more hours.
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dangeroover 8 years ago
The thing I wish someone spelled out to me when I started my startup employment journey over ten years ago is that you need to pick the right company. Most startup equity ends up being worthless, so you need to think of yourself as a venture capitalist. Will this company really be the next big thing? Do I believe in them or am I just excited that they want to hire me?<p>Looking back I wasted far too much time working for companies that I knew deep down were never going to make me money on options and working on projects that I knew were going to fail. I wasted my time and I let these failure companies give me valueless options in place of pay that I would have received working for an established company. Job interviews are bi-directional and everyone tells you that, but it took me wasting many years to understand what that meant.
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avindrothover 8 years ago
80k is my favorite EA organization. I love reading their articles!
collywover 8 years ago
I was looking for a job last year, and had a number of startups contact me as my 14 years of experience were interesting for them.<p>&quot;We can&#x27;t afford to pay much because we are a startup&quot; came up on a number of occasions. Sorry, but I already get paid poorly relative to other engineers because I am in Spain, and I am not a charity.
ikeboyover 8 years ago
Uh, taking the average equity granted and multiplying by the average value of equity is flawed on so many levels.<p>If there&#x27;s any correlation between equity granted and value, that analysis fails. Also, the average company value needs to be weighted by number of employees. Chances are if you take that average you&#x27;ll get a higher number.
repomies691over 8 years ago
This varies greatly from company to company. I would say in startups the pay related issues can have much greater variance than in established companies. The startups that have lots of cash flowing in but have urgent customers often pay well. The startups that haven&#x27;t yet found a business model probably don&#x27;t.
lambyover 8 years ago
Are they <i>happier</i> ?
ryanSrichover 8 years ago
In other news the sun rose this morning. How do these stories get upvote?
hackaflockaover 8 years ago
On average? Of course not. It&#x27;s a power-law! Averages mean nothing in power-law situations.
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