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Computational Law, Symbolic Discourse, and the AI Constitution

82 pointsby stevenover 8 years ago

23 comments

sdrothrockover 8 years ago
I can&#x27;t help but completely disagree with both the idea and the probability that this will ever happen.<p>Modern law is supposed to be open, so that anyone can read it. Reencoding laws, for whatever reason, strikes me as being fundamentally undemocratic.<p>The argument can be made that if legal &quot;code&quot; is taught in schools, then it&#x27;s no more undemocratic than writing down law, but the chances of that happening seem slim to none.<p>Another argument is that law is already written in &quot;special&quot; English that most people can&#x27;t figure out, but I think that having it in English alone is a big step toward having it being readable by almost anyone.<p>It would be neat to have law written as code and to have AI be able to parse it for you in lay language -- that is, you could ask it questions or pose situations to get a legally-binding answer. But then the question for me is, why don&#x27;t we just have said AI read the current legalese and parse it?
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jacques_chesterover 8 years ago
I remember thinking that this was a good idea, in my first year of law.<p>By the third year I had rather given up on the idea.<p>Legal writing is already well-specified. The problem is not with the language that the law is written in. The problem is that <i>the world is irreducibly complex</i> and the law cannot shrink its domain from &quot;everything humans have done, do, will do, or could do; interacting with other humans, dead, alive, unborn; interacting with objects, in their homes, in public, on private property, belonging to them, belonging to others, belonging to nobody; on the surface of the earth, underneath the earth, in the seas, in the international seas, in the skies, in orbit, on the moon, the limits of human space; with ideas, owned and unowned, with multiple kinds of ownership; in concert with other legal systems, or in contrast, or in direct mutually incompatible conflict; without limit, forever&quot;.<p>Which is probably a fraction of it.<p>Quite aside from scope, there is ordinary fuzzy logic: in coming to a conclusion, judges must give consideration to concepts that cannot be crisply, discretely encoded: &quot;the buyer without notice at arm&#x27;s length&quot;, the &quot;reasonable person, similarly circumstanced&quot; and so forth.<p>These are all supported by <i>cases</i>. Mounds and mounds of cases. Case-based reasoning is a well-explored area of AI, but it hasn&#x27;t been to any avail. Civil legal systems try to go without caselaw and have pure statute in the fashion that this kind of idle daydream typically tries to express.<p>And they&#x27;ve had hundreds and hundreds of years to get the &quot;perfect&quot; drafting. Bugs are still showing up. All that it does is shift the burden of adjustment to a slower, central bureaucracy from a self-correcting, distributed, multi-level system.<p>We still need humans to make sense of humans. For the foreseeable future this can be expected to continue. The law isn&#x27;t going anywhere.
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erispoeover 8 years ago
Ambiguity is a feature of natural languages, it&#x27;s not a bug.<p>It&#x27;s because of this ambiguity that you can pass a law and assume other laws will update their meaning accordingly. For instance, civil rights.<p>A law is an abstraction, and its meaning gets clarified or even updated when cases occur. For instance, marriage discrimination is now unconstitutional. The text of the constitution didn&#x27;t change, its meaning did.
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matt4077over 8 years ago
This is contradictory:<p>- A system of law is needed to settle disputes happening in the so-called &quot;real world&quot;.<p>- Often, these disputes involve what people say.<p>- The decision therefore needs to account for the meaning of what was said.<p>- If you could algorithmically derive the &quot;true meaning&quot; of anything people say, you could also derive the &quot;true meaning&quot; of any law, because both use the same medium, i. e. &quot;language&quot;.<p>-&gt; You could just use that system to derive the &quot;true meaning&quot; of laws without translating into any sort of code.
pjbrowover 8 years ago
The primary problem with law is the technicality of the language, aka &quot;legalese&quot;.<p>At the moment, expecting someone off the street to properly understand a legal document is broadly equivalent to expecting them to understand what&#x27;s going on with a command line (assuming they use computers only casually).<p>Law needs the equivalent of a GUI.<p>It&#x27;s possible. Some other lawyers and I are working on an open source system of &quot;defined phrases&quot; that can be used like software functions. Lawyers already define words, there&#x27;s no reason you can&#x27;t do the same with phrases.<p>Each plain english phrase represents a module of legalese that can be manipulated with &quot;arguments&quot; specified in conjunction with the phrase. Like a GUI, a comprehensible representation is there for the user, and the technical legalese still does all the work underneath.<p>You can take a look at it here <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lawpatch.org" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lawpatch.org</a>. Previous HN discussion here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10597778" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10597778</a>
jmcmichaelover 8 years ago
Two words: &#x27;event calculus&#x27;. A type of predicate logic constructed to precisely specify the types of relationships that we use language to do with law and contracts:<p>&#x27;Formalizing Legislation in the Event Calculus&#x27;: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marcellodibello.com&#x2F;files&#x2F;research_files&#x2F;theses&#x2F;citizenship.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marcellodibello.com&#x2F;files&#x2F;research_files&#x2F;theses&#x2F;c...</a><p>Yes, it uses a library of obscure symbols to describe these relationships, but can be algorithmically translated into any number of natural languages, thus making these descriptions understandable to most people.<p>It&#x27;s my belief that event calculus + blockchain (I&#x27;m looking at tauchain as an ideal platform) to enable the construction of massively scalable, voluntary, commons-based social coordination, production, politics and law.
okketover 8 years ago
Original source: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.stephenwolfram.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;computational-law-symbolic-discourse-and-the-ai-constitution&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.stephenwolfram.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;computational-law-sym...</a>
kensaiover 8 years ago
Damn it. Every time I read a Stephen Wolfram entry I am so divided between if what I read is there for its own sake or is it just another shameful plug for his products.<p>I wish he could simply write for once in a neutral way. He has good messages, even if some disagree. But makes it so distasteful by these Wolfram mentions again and again...
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kazinatorover 8 years ago
Laws are not in anything that can be called in natural language; they are in a code called &quot;legalese&quot;.<p>Legalese doesn&#x27;t have to be formalized into program-like code. Rather, perhaps into mathematical language, with some of the notations that go with it. It needs to use clear logic, and set theoretic descriptions and reasoning. Law is all about logic and sets: what rule applies under what conditions, and what is included and excluded and so forth.
ktRolsterover 8 years ago
Reality is a fractal, thus any language that precisely represents all the corner cases will by necessity be infinite.<p>(The law currently deals with this problem by only solving questions that come before it, not by solving every potential problem.)
matheweisover 8 years ago
Ethereum&#x27;s smart contracts were a good example of why this probably won&#x27;t happen anytime soon...
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hprotagonistover 8 years ago
&quot;There can be no Justice so long as Laws are absolute&quot;.
grownseedover 8 years ago
The idea itself is rather beautiful, I used to believe it was the only way things should be, but the more I think about it and its presentation here, the more I feel uncomfortable about it.<p>The contents of the article are fairly heavy on the technical side of things, but seem to hand-wave the human aspect of the whole operation, or tend to mostly point out human flaws and rarely qualities. I&#x27;m not sure whether it&#x27;s cynicism or me reading too much into it, but it bothers me a little.<p>Should this idea (and others alike) ever be implemented, I personally believe they should only ever be decision-support systems that members of society (humans and possibly AIs) would ultimately decide upon. Such a system would be designed for humans first-and-for-all ; I think consistently making it decide for humans would likely remove the relative aspect of morality over time, leaving all your decisions to a &quot;greater entity&quot; and all that entails.<p>I did enjoy the article, if only as a very interesting thought exercise, but I sincerely hope not too many people take it to heart.
robert_tweedover 8 years ago
I have to say this is one of the more thought-provoking ideas to be posted here in a while. I agree with the cynics that it&#x27;s probably not a good solution to the problem of codifying laws. Legalese is already intended to act like code, but what separates it is the requirement for human interpretation, especially in applicability to unforeseen circumstances.<p>For example, how do you codify concepts like, from easy to hard: assault; theft; copyright infringement; or software patents, in terms of the underlying social benefits and harms that these concepts are supposed to enshrine? Ideas about exactly what is &quot;harm&quot; or &quot;benefit&quot; (and their highly subjective nature) have been well explored in sci-fi. The short story &quot;Liar!&quot; by Isaac Asimov springs to mind in particular.<p>On the other hand, I can see these ideas being more immediately useful for digital contracts. Some have pointed out that software can have bugs, but so can contracts. Some have pointed out that code isn&#x27;t as accessible as plain writing, but contracts already aren&#x27;t written in plain language. The very clear advantage of a purely code based contract is that you can query it without a lawyer. Imagine having a contract that you can literally ask questions, like &quot;what will happen in the event of Foo?&quot; and get a clear, unambiguous answer. Contracts today are open to interpretation. If you try to query a contract, you&#x27;ll have to pay a lawyer a lot of money and get an answer like &quot;Most likely this, but it may depend on a judge&#x27;s opinion&quot;.<p>Another advantage of code is that it can be refactored. This means if you have a large, complex contract, you can restructure it to produce smaller, simpler contracts that focus on specific areas that may be of more or less interest to different parties. This can be done while provably not destroying any information. That isn&#x27;t possible if you merely summarise a contract.
mannykannotover 8 years ago
Putting aside the improbability of the notion that we are about to make a breakthrough in writing precisely what we mean in code, virtually none of the difficulties that arise in law and governance are of the sort that can be resolved by formal logic. The law is primarily about human relationships and conflict resolution, not rules.
soufronover 8 years ago
I think this paper is more important for AI than for law. Wolfram correctly considers that we&#x27;re bad at giving complex instructions to AI and that the way Law does it is very good. Thus, getting inspiration from legal systems to code AI is a great idea - I actually worked a lot on this during my PhD in 2000&#x2F;2005.<p>On the contrary, trying to use AI to regulate legal systems is... well actually we already do it a lot! Smart Contracts? Just look at the way an invoice is generated today. Taxes? You really think there is a guy putting the numbers in your tax declaration? Etc.<p>There will be more AI in Law in the future. But that&#x27;s about it. It won&#x27;t change its nature. It will allow Law to evolve more quickly and to become ever more precise - creating more and more rules instead of simplifying it. Contrary to most people, I think that more Law is always better than less. So I guess it&#x27;s a good thing.
flukusover 8 years ago
Why not keep it in english and add some unit tests that demonstrate the intent of the law?
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jazaover 8 years ago
I thought about the similarities between law and computer code several years back - see <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;greenash.net.au&#x2F;thoughts&#x2F;2008&#x2F;08&#x2F;legislation-and-programming-two-peas-in-a-pod&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;greenash.net.au&#x2F;thoughts&#x2F;2008&#x2F;08&#x2F;legislation-and-prog...</a><p>Nice to see that Stephen Wolfram goes into much more depth than I do, about what would be required for this to happen. He&#x27;s also more optimistic than I am!
rohankshirover 8 years ago
the piece seems too founded on symbolic representation and building a world model, but the vast amount of AI systems deployed don&#x27;t use either of those, or only use a bit of &#x27;knowledge&#x27;. His example with &#x27;You should eat a banana&#x27; should be replaced with &#x27;You went banana crazy&#x27;. This highlights the ambiguity that we may want to tell a machine, that any symbolic system would utterly fail at.<p>He touched on machine-learning, but I think the most powerful systems in the future will be heavily built upon data driven algorithms will (and presently) be able to handle ambiguity and understand what this means.
randcrawover 8 years ago
SW; DR. But I think SW is partly right. I think AI systems <i>will</i> parse and assess new legal documents and laws, but not to compile them into code. Instead the AI-based legal engine will simplify, disambiguate, and debug informally specified legal documents of all kinds into a form that is logically consistent and narratively standardized. Every AI-post-processd document will follow a legal template, simplified. clarified, and systematized by the bot.<p>I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;ll be a while yet before AI-processed legalese can make deep use of common sense or real world knowledge. But I think it should be possible soon to at least symbolize the concepts specified and confirm that the logical premises and constraints are well formed, based on a small domain-specific knowledgebase customized to each use case.<p>For example: real estate contracts. The terms used in leases should be fairly few, and the relations between owner, lessor, lessee, et al should be straightforward enough to allow a bot to build and maintain a sufficient world model of relations to represent all the necessities to capture any property&#x27;s purchase, sale, or lease.<p>The advantage then is that the AI processor could look for anomalies or unusual attributes (present or missing) and reveal them to the signatories, perhaps interactively, as well as rewrite the legalese into a very standard format that <i>any</i> human could understand quickly, since all terms and constraints would be presented in the same standard sequence every time.<p>If such an AI capability then could be extended to handle contracts of other kinds, I don&#x27;t see why, one day, all contracts could not be subsumed by the bot. Plausibly, as the model grows, the bot might scale up to accommodate other application areas of law and all the other uses for legalese.<p>Once the models for each application area of law are induced derived and matured, such an AI bot should be able to create and flesh out any legal document simply by applying an efficient Q&amp;A with the consumer or lawmaker, meanwhile offering advice on potential gaps, unintended consequences, and loopholes. Then the need for encoded legalese like what SW proposes would disappear as the fundamental tenets of legal verbiage disappear into the representational workings of the [Deep Net or whatever].
ryanlmover 8 years ago
I&#x27;ve always wondered, why is the tax code called the &quot;tax code&quot; Is it written in English and how many lines is it?
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mentifexover 8 years ago
<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ai.neocities.org&#x2F;AiLaw.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ai.neocities.org&#x2F;AiLaw.html</a> is complex material.
joshmarinacciover 8 years ago
Isn&#x27;t this a Wolfram blog? Why is it here?