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Ask HN: How do you handle the business structure and taxes of side projects?

260 pointsby misthopover 8 years ago
For those of you with income generating side projects, have you incorporated? Do you pay quarterly taxes? Do you list it as other, unreported income on your returns?

24 comments

joshuaheardover 8 years ago
Lawyer and entrpreneur here. There are 2 main reasons to incorporate: liability protection and ease of administration.<p>You don&#x27;t say what your side project is, but you have to ask your self whether you need liability protection, that is what are the chances someone is going to sue you for damages. If you feel you need liability protection, then you should form an entity. I recommend an LLC in most cases. It is a pass-through entity for taxes which means you pay taxes on your individual return (though it still must file a business tax return). Also buy insurance.<p>The other reason is ease of administration. A legal entity will have some form of controlling document. In an LLC, it is the Operating Agreement. This spells out the rights and duties of the principals in the business. It also allows for common ownership of the business assets. As principals come and go, the LLC continues on. Finally, if you get big and you bring on investors, they will want to see a legal entity for their protection.<p>The drawbacks of forming an LLC are the time and effort of drafting and filing all the proper incorporating documents, paying the filing fees (in California $800 per year), and the extra tax forms.<p>This is a complicated topic and I have given a high level view. There are lots of resources on the internet and in bookstores on this topic. Nolo.com would be a good place to start.
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patio11over 8 years ago
Obligatory disclaimers: not a lawyer, not an accountant, am employed by Stripe to write about these sorts of topics, writing here only in my personal capacity, none of the following is advice but rather just a pointer for your future Google searches and talks w&#x2F; qualified professionals:<p>I ran my businesses for the first ~6 years as unincorporated sole proprietorships. The exact mechanisms of doing this are different based on where you are (both at a national and local level). Japan and the US are fairly similar: a sole proprietorship exists as soon as you say it does. (In Japan, you should probably walk down to the local tax office and file a form announcing your intention to file 青色申告 next year if you plan on making more than $30k revenue. They&#x27;ll know which form to file and you are capable of doing it write if you can read Japanese.) Some US localities will want you to file for an assumed name &#x2F; &quot;doing business as&quot; (DBA) with your local county clerk or have a city business license -- you can usually find out about that with some quick Googling. I filed a one-page form with Lake County, IL saying that I was doing business as Kalzumeus Software (several years before I had that LLC) and then had to pay ~$50 or so to put an ad in the newspaper for a few weeks saying &quot;Heads up Kalzumeus Software is actually Patrick.&quot;<p>You pay taxes on the <i>profits</i> of the business, not on the <i>revenue</i> of the business, which is a crucially important distinction that many HNers do not know when they start and which many do not properly operationalize even if they know it. I cannot underline this enough: no software entrepreneur I&#x27;ve ever met had a good handle on this when starting. If you sell $10k of software and think &quot;Hmm my profits are maybe $9.5k -- the only expense was a DigitalOcean server&quot; I think your profits are ~$0 after you spend a few hours with an accountant walking through credit card receipts. They&#x27;re going to walk you through things like e.g. depreciation, apportioning business and personal use of your Internet&#x2F;cell phone, conferences, business entertaining, (potentially!) home office use [+], etc etc. (A thing your accountant will probably tell you, in the US, is that if you want to decrease your tax burden for 2016 buying a Macbook for the business<p>You should ordinarily be listing income from a side business as business income, at least in the US and Japan, and not as any other type of income. This is both a) correct and b) gives you the ability to deduct expenses, which is not possible on all types of income reported on e.g. one&#x27;s 1040 or 青色申告.<p>The US has you pay quarterly estimated taxes. There are safe harbors which are likely to cover you in the first year of running your side project. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.irs.gov&#x2F;publications&#x2F;p17&#x2F;ch04.html#en_US_2015_publink100032385" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.irs.gov&#x2F;publications&#x2F;p17&#x2F;ch04.html#en_US_2015_pu...</a> The calculation of these can occasionally be complicated; this is a great &quot;ask an accountant&quot; question because this is their bread-and-butter and that particularly calculation is something that most accountants would do for free, on spec, as part of soliciting your business for next year. The penalties for not paying estimated tax in a timely manner are very small -- many entrepreneurs of my acquaintance treat timely tax payment as a small discount to the &quot;real&quot; tax bill and elect to simplify their lives by paying taxes once a year rather than by calculating quarterly.<p>The chief reason to put a side project in an LLC is to reduce the risk of liability of the side project flowing to you. Most side projects have vanishingly little liability. Ask me for a citation some other time, but even software development freelancing is low-risk -- my insurance company calculates than ~0.5% of freelancers&#x2F;consultants get sued in any given year. Downside: when they do get sued, win or lose, that averages $40k in costs. If you&#x27;re doing something where you have non-trivial liability or if the prospect of $40k+ vanishing just makes you unable to sleep at night, incorporate and get an general liability &#x2F; E&amp;O policy. (Costs $1k or so per year as a floor; mine as a comparable is $3k and has the words &quot;patient health information&quot; and &quot;HIPAA&quot; on it, which contribute expense and underwriting fun times.)<p>If you have additional questions about this sort of thing, I&#x27;m writing about it this week (in my employed capacity) and would love to hear what you&#x27;re thinking about.<p>[+] Home offices are historically a contentious deduction in the US, but one of the reasons you have an accountant is so that they tell you consequential things about the difference between the regs as written and the regs as customarily applied like &quot;You don&#x27;t have an office? Oh, in Japan, we just deduct 40% of your rent then. Substantiation requirement? Ah you Americans are such kidders. There&#x27;s the law on the books which is $CALCULATION but the tax agency basically feels like you don&#x27;t screw them too much on being aggressive and they won&#x27;t screw you too much on bringing out a tape measure to your kitchen.&quot;)
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up_and_upover 8 years ago
&gt; 1. Have you incorporated?<p>No I operate as a sole proprietor.<p>&gt; 2. Do you pay quarterly taxes?<p>Nope, I pay the penalty since my income and ability to shelter it vary from year to year. The penalty is something like 3% on the total taxes you owe. Not too bad given the flexibility holding your money provides. Maybe I can load up a i401K that year or need to save for some big purchase which is more valuable then just giving the IRS the money.<p>&gt; 3. Do you list it as other, unreported income on your returns?<p>I file a Schedule C<p>I do it all using TaxAct. Super easy and cheap. Helped me to understand taxes as well.
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jstanleyover 8 years ago
I run several side projects[1], with varying degrees of profitably.<p>I haven&#x27;t incorporated any of them, I see that as an unnecessary hassle.<p>I&#x27;m in England, and (as far as I&#x27;m aware) quarterly taxes aren&#x27;t a thing here. Until this year the income was negligible enough not to bother paying taxes, but this year I&#x27;ve been keeping track of finances with ledger[2] and I intend to pay taxes as &quot;self-employed&quot; for the first time at the end of this tax year.<p>And to make sure I&#x27;m going in the right direction (not going to run out of money) I add up my net worth, split by category (bank account, peer-to-peer lending, stocks and shares, Bitcoin) at the start of every month and keep track of it in a big text file.<p>[1] currently focusing on SMS Privacy, read my Indie Hackers interview at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indiehackers.com&#x2F;businesses&#x2F;sms-privacy" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indiehackers.com&#x2F;businesses&#x2F;sms-privacy</a><p>[2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ledger-cli.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ledger-cli.org&#x2F;</a>
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simonebrunozziover 8 years ago
I have been using Stripe Atlas for about 6-7 months now, for a small side project that I spend part of my weekends on.<p>I have to say that Atlas might be one of the easiest, and least expensive, ways to deal with the incorporation and the rest.
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mosburgerover 8 years ago
I incorporated w&#x2F; a basic LLC pass-through back when I started freelancing just for the liability protection. I don&#x27;t freelance (much) lately, but I&#x27;ve kept the LLC going in the meantime and run my very small side projects as part of that LLC. If you decide to do a side project w&#x2F; an LLC you might want to read up on &quot;piercing the corporate veil&quot; and be sure to keep your project&#x27;s income and expenses separate from any personal stuff. I personally have a completely separate bank account, again from my freelancing days, and keep the two things separated paying myself w&#x2F; distributions occasionally. I&#x27;m no lawyer or accountant so I don&#x27;t know if this is &quot;enough,&quot; but I figure it can&#x27;t hurt.
brentmover 8 years ago
If you&#x27;re in the US I would consider forming an LLC in your home state and use that as a catch all entity for your projects. If any of the projects take off you can spin that project off into a different entity type (if you want). LLCs are mostly painless to create &amp; file taxes for.
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dicroceover 8 years ago
Personally speaking, enough of my side projects never made a dime that I decided a while back to wait until I made $1 before incorporation. This has saved me quite a bit of hassle.
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analog31over 8 years ago
I make a small electronic gadget, non computer related.<p>I&#x27;ve got an LLC for basic liability protection.<p>PayPal is my business system. All sales come in through PP, and I use the PP credit card for my purchases. All documents are electronic. At tax time, I download the entire year&#x27;s transactions into a spreadsheet, add things up, and enter the totals into a Schedule C.<p>Rather than filing quarterly taxes, I&#x27;ve simply bumped up the amount of withholding from my regular day job.
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edoceoover 8 years ago
Entrepreneur here, on my fourth company.<p>Lawyer and Accountant. Budget about $10k&#x2F;yr<p>Start as LLC then move to C-Corp as it grows and takes investment money. Accountant files quarterly federal and state taxes. My wages are taken out on W2.<p>When smaller the project is an LLC. Accountant still files paper but under $100k only annual. Just take the money out as distribution.<p>Tax implications from either route. Encourage you to find a trusted advisor on those matters
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jayessover 8 years ago
99% of the time there&#x27;s no reason to incorporate in Delaware for your side project. Just form an LLC in your state and it&#x27;ll be considered a &quot;disregarded entity&quot; on your tax return and you&#x27;ll report the income&#x2F;expenses on schedule C of your 1040.<p>If you&#x27;re making more than a few grand (net) then you might consider having your LLC taxed as a corporation and enjoy the 15% tax treatment. If Trump gets his way, corporate taxes might finally be reduced and you&#x27;ll get even more favorable tax treatment.<p>However, if your intent is to enjoy the income but you expect a narrow net income or loss (lots of expenses can be attributed to your business), then stick with a single-member, disregarded entity, LLC.
chrisgomanover 8 years ago
You mentioned &quot;projects&quot; (plural) and the way I have it setup is pretty similar to those recommending an LLC (or S-Corp) in CA.<p>While the annual cost of $800 minimum tax plus maybe another $500 in administrative fees (accountants, legal, etc.) is real money spent, you can make it back in tax deductions and potential liability. If you have a structure in place (another entity that is not you personally), it is much easier to deduct expenses (less red flags) IF you make an attempt to actually generate income -- the government cannot stop you from being a bad business person :)<p>If you are in a 50% tax bracket, this could easily be offset by $3000 in expenses such as hosting fees, domain names, costco membership, cell phone, even your car lease. If you are renting, you can possibly deduct some portion (~20%) of your rent (do not do this if you own a house). Get a separate bank account + debit card, a separate credit card (maybe a business one with rewards) and pay everything using that entity. You will end up making &quot;owner contribution&quot; from your personal bank account to your business account every month.<p>The extra wrinkle if you have multiple projects is that you can further separate your different projects into &quot;DBA&quot;s (Doing Business As) which costs an extra $100&#x2F;yr (County Clerk Recorder, Publish in Magazine, separate bank account, credit card, domain name) 100% owned by your LLC (or S-Corp). If you shut down a DBA, it will cost maybe another $50. You will need a DBA to open a bank account under that name.<p>While this may look like overkill, this keeps everything clean and if your side project does take off, you will have some history with the business.<p>On a day-to-day basis, what I usually end up doing is setting aside a day to deal with all these entities. Most bills are on each &quot;company&quot; credit card and I call all the credit card companies to align the closing date. For example, all my credit cards close around the 22nd or 23rd of every month. On the 12th of every month, I pull up each account and pay them all using one screen of online billpay if you have all your business accounts tied together using your SSN.<p>Note: I have other companies that are their own entity as they are generating income &amp; have other partners. The setup here is specifically just for my side projects.
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atwebbover 8 years ago
&gt;have you incorporated?<p>My state LLC<p>&gt;Do you pay quarterly taxes?<p>Absolutely, mail a check with the coupon based on income earned.<p>&gt;Do you list it as other, unreported income on your returns?<p>Schedule C and income from business, you pay Self-Employment Tax, SEPs are nice to push off the income to retirement and see a tax benefit if it&#x27;s supplementary.<p>I also carry worker&#x27;s comp and liability insurance, pricey, annoying to setup and deal with but worth it from my perspective.
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kkoomiover 8 years ago
If you start an iOS app under your own name, then decide to form an LLC after validating your idea, do your reviews and rankings get reset?
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walterbellover 8 years ago
Has anyone outside the US looked into the tax implications of Stripe Atlas? These articles urge caution:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tech.eu&#x2F;features&#x2F;9060&#x2F;stripe-atlas-european-startups&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tech.eu&#x2F;features&#x2F;9060&#x2F;stripe-atlas-european-startups&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;flagtheory.com&#x2F;stripe-atlas&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;flagtheory.com&#x2F;stripe-atlas&#x2F;</a>
caspgover 8 years ago
For those from EU, which country within EU is the best to incorporate? Estonia with their online residency seems interesting.
jv22222over 8 years ago
I recommend that you do not form a company until you have validated the project. I wrote a blog about it that explains why:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.nugget.one&#x2F;2016&#x2F;08&#x2F;19&#x2F;dont-form-a-company&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.nugget.one&#x2F;2016&#x2F;08&#x2F;19&#x2F;dont-form-a-company&#x2F;</a>
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cdnsteveover 8 years ago
Unless you need the liability protection or have very high income, the overhead in Canada of having a corp is very costly. Hiring an accountant to file corp taxes is usually over $1500 a year alone, then you need payroll, etc. Then you&#x27;re also paying double tax on that income with a corp. Corp receives income and pays corp tax, pays employee (you) you pay income tax.<p>If you have a small side project with low risk then I recommend sole proprietor for sure.<p>In any case, soon as you start generating income you need to track income&#x2F;expenses, register your business, register for HST and setup a separate bank account. I think TD here charges $25&#x2F;mo just for that privilege.<p>So yeah, sometimes a fun side project loses its excitement when your stuck doing paperwork and start adding up the expenses, it&#x27;s not worth it.
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PaulHouleover 8 years ago
I have not incorporated. It is expensive to incorporate in Delaware and to do it anywhere else is a big paperwork headache. (You&#x27;ll need a board of directors, annual meetings, etc.) If you are making less than $20,000 a year it is probably not worth it, if you are making a lot more it probably is.<p>As for taxes, the penalties are not particularly punitive if you screw up and you have years to manage the situation before anything critical happens. In particular, if you go one year without making quarterly tax payments you will probably walk away with no penality.
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lcallover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m finding that the book by Entrepreneur magazine called _Start Your Own Business: the only startup book you&#x27;ll ever need_ is very helpful (no connection with me).<p>EDIT: specifically, in the index entry for &quot;business structures&quot; and the chapter on taxes. I also bought a few &quot;personal MBA&quot; books, &amp; on marketing etc, but this seemed clearly the best one to start with; those others I think I&#x27;ll come back to, later.
moeamayaover 8 years ago
If you&#x27;re based in California, we wrote detailed steps when we incorporated earlier this year: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dixonandmoe.com&#x2F;writing&#x2F;how-to-form-an-llc-in-california&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dixonandmoe.com&#x2F;writing&#x2F;how-to-form-an-llc-in-califo...</a><p>The $800&#x2F;year is indeed painful but it&#x27;s cost of doing business (and maintaining continuity).
ohstopituover 8 years ago
As someone based outside the US (Canada), would it be advisable to incorporate in Delaware?<p>If not, how would I go about the income from my side projects?
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shaknaover 8 years ago
Not incorporated, I operate as a sole trader.<p>As I&#x27;m an Aussie, I register an ABN (being a sole trader is free) and ensure I pay&#x2F;charge GST. I&#x27;m only required to file taxes if the business is earning in excess of $10,000 annually. So most projects that go nowhere don&#x27;t put any onnus on me to be hyper vigilant.
brownedgeover 8 years ago
Does anyone have experience with incorporating a UK Ltd for such a use case?
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