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Thoughts on Flash

962 pointsby andrewdaveyabout 15 years ago

89 comments

joshwaabout 15 years ago
If they're going to pitch HTML5 as an alternative to Flash (and, implicitly, the iPhoneOS API), then why not let them compete directly with Cocoa Touch apps? Why not offer HTML5 developers a way to take advantage of the App Store's monetization and discoverability?<p>Apple already provides some amazing documentation and tutorials for making offline-capable mobile web apps, but they're still treated by Apple as the bastard cousins of "real" iPhone apps. They should buy or provide an officially-supported analogue to a tool like PhoneGap[1] or Titanium[2], allowing HTML5 apps to appear in the App Store, and perhaps provide an Apple-supported framework such as their mysterious PastryKit[3] or contribute to SproutCore[4], giving HTML5 developers better tools to conform to Apple's HIG.<p>HTML5 apps built on open standards should be on an equal footing with apps built in Cocoa Touch. That would be walking the walk.<p>[1] <a href="http://phonegap.com/" rel="nofollow">http://phonegap.com/</a><p>[2] <a href="http://www.appcelerator.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.appcelerator.com/</a><p>[3] <a href="http://daringfireball.net/2009/12/pastrykit" rel="nofollow">http://daringfireball.net/2009/12/pastrykit</a><p>[4] <a href="http://blog.sproutcore.com/post/531215199/introducing-sproutcore-touch" rel="nofollow">http://blog.sproutcore.com/post/531215199/introducing-sprout...</a><p>EDIT: "<i>officially-supported</i> analogue"<p>EDIT: footnotes
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gfunk911about 15 years ago
I love this. Apple clearly laid out their reasoning, using facts and persuasive argument. The world needs more of this.<p>Obviously, there is some spin in the post, and I don't completely agree with 100% of it, but I love the level of discourse.
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pgabout 15 years ago
What he describes as the "most important reason" is also the big mistake here. If using certain libraries or cross-platform development tools truly did result in worse apps, then the market would take care of that.<p>He also doesn't seem to understand that such tools do not all totally hide the underlying APIs. They fall along a continuum in that respect. And in trying to ban extreme cases like Flash, Apple has also basically banned compilers.<p><i>Every</i> programmer I've talked to about this thought it was some combination of stupid and evil (there ought to be a word for that; stevil?) to insist that apps be written only in C, C++, and Objective-C.<p>Surely there must be people fairly high up in Apple who realize what a crazy move it is to try to dictate to hackers what programming language they should use. It worries me that those people aren't being heard.
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efsavageabout 15 years ago
Flash is closed, Apple is open. Huh?<p>I can build a flash app entirely for free, legally, with zero restrictions, forever, on the tools I used to write it, or where I can deploy it to. Adobe has bent over backwards to make players (also free) backwards compatible. That's pretty open.<p>I must pay to build an iphone app, which I can only do on a computer owned by the same company, running an OS owned by the same company. This app only runs on hardware made by said company, and only run on an OS by said company. I am restricted in how I can build this, and must live by the whims of an opaque editorial process. In terms of openness, this makes Bill Gates look like RMS.
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pilifabout 15 years ago
&#62; For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5.<p>right. And the Finder - a piece of Software central to OSX was using Carbon until... when exactly? At most 6 months prior to when CS5 came out.<p>iTunes - a corner stone of the iPhone software world? Still on Carbon.<p>If I hate one thing, it's hypocrisy.<p>Aside of that, nice arguments and well-written. Also, from this perspective, MonoTouch and Unity might be in the clear too as they are not cross-platform toolkits reducing themselves to the least common denominator.
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Qzabout 15 years ago
This is where he loses me:<p>"Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open."<p>Adobe can just as easily say: "Though Flash products are proprietary, we strongly believe that standards pertaining to what software is allowed to run on your computer should be open."<p>It's doublespeak either way, and it's crazy to think that either of those two viewpoints is good for the industry.<p>edit: Also: "If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?"<p>Flash can handle touch events just fine. Rewriting all that flash code in H/C/J is a monumental task compared to just updating a few flash events.<p>Basically, this is a lot of corporate spin and not a lot of sound arguments.
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tumultabout 15 years ago
More good news about 3.3.1 "must write in C, Objective-C or C++" clause: it's made even more obvious here that Apple only cares about commercial middleware UI-driven applications. Those of us with custom toolkits and compilers (and games developers) can probably relax. Though, I wish they would still change the wording. I dislike having to wait for my friend's cat to click the "I Agree" button, since I cannot actually agree to the terms as worded and not break them.
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cnicolaouabout 15 years ago
There is an even more expressive quote for Adobe to peruse: "Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."
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jzabout 15 years ago
All his reasons are fairly obvious for the technical user and have been discussed in the blogosphere, but I think hearing it from the horse's mouth and at a very high level will benefit non technical users.
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emontero1about 15 years ago
"We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash."<p>I can attest to the veracity of this statement. My MBP's processor spikes whenever I get on YouTube or any other Flash-based site. I've had a couple of major crashes on both Firefox and Chrome while using Flash. I've also heard other users express similar views with these and other browsers on Ubuntu.
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WilliamLPabout 15 years ago
The most brilliant part of Apple's marketing here is leveraging infighting and unintended consequences in the free software community. They don't care about open standards - that they would is, on the face of it, absurd. What they do know is that they will evoke much support for championing JS/HTML/CSS as an open plaform, and that it poses no actual threat to their App Store control. This is because of two reasons:<p>First that there is so much infighting between Mozilla, Microsoft, and Google on the PC browser side, that it will <i>never</i> be possible to deliver video in one way that is accessible to all users, and Flash will remain required on PCs. (Ironically, Mozilla is Adobe's best friend here, as lack of H.264 support for HTML5 in Firefox for the indefinite future - even if your hardware supports it! - ensures that we will never be able to encode once and run on any PC - unless we use Flash!) So HTML5 will never never be a real final solution, because of the PC environment, which makes it safe for Apple to support and champion.<p>The second reason why HTML is no threat to Apple is that it just is too hard to write real applications in JS and current (or forseeable) browser environments. I get flamed for this a lot, but I think most of the people who flame me have never tried to build and maintain large cross-browser compatible codebases in JS involving a changing team of developers over a long time. People who disagree here always point to nebulous future hopes or technolgies that don't work very well yet, and I think underestimate the difficultly and time this will take, let alone for adoption. And they also, in my opinion, underestimate the problems inherent in Javascript, <i>the language itself</i>, independent of the well known pathologies with browser DOMs.<p>And, the reason why this marketing strategy is so brilliant is precisely because posts like this one will be viewed as conspiracy theory! This is because people have so many emotional ties to their hopes and their own preferred ways of doing things.
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yanabout 15 years ago
I wonder why Jobs felt he had to explain this situation, which (in my opinion) was fairly clear to anyone involved in technology. Perhaps the criticism was getting to him?<p>Also, I found this to be a brilliant snipe:<p>&#62; If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?
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va_coderabout 15 years ago
It continues to amaze me that Jobs, as CEO of the 2nd largest company by market cap, is more technical than many of the managers I have had.
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RyanMcGrealabout 15 years ago
&#62;I wanted to jot down some of our thoughts<p>I'm guessing a company that controls information as obsessively as Apple doesn't just "jot down" its official response to a major, ongoing controversy.<p>&#62;We know from painful experience that letting a third party layer of software come between the platform and the developer ultimately results in sub-standard apps and hinders the enhancement and progress of the platform.<p>It sounds like Apple doesn't trust the market. If apps compiled from a Flash development framework target the lowest common denominator and don't take advantage of iP*d innovations, they will lose to apps that do.
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ryoshuabout 15 years ago
It's interesting to see Steve Jobs on the FUD side of things. On the upside, at least Apple has now officially addressed the conflict. Kudos for that.
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paulsmithabout 15 years ago
Regardless of how you feel about Apple or the Flash situation, you have to appreciate a CEO that can write and explain a company's motivations clearly. Would that we had more of that kind of frankness and less corporate-speak gobbledygook.
mambodogabout 15 years ago
With regards to video, if the lack of Flash support on Apple devices means faster uptake of the HTML5 video tag, then that's no bad thing.
doki_penabout 15 years ago
They seem to be arguing both sides. First we should have open standards. This is great because apps work cross platform. But then he goes on to say that cross platform libraries are bad because they stifle apple innovation. This is very reminiscent of MS's reasons for not having standard compliant software in Office, IE etc. You can't have it both ways. Proprietary innovation may be faster short term, but in the long term it only benefits Apple. History has shown that once a corp gets the lock in advantage, they stop innovating and slow the entire process down.
zyb09about 15 years ago
Sounds pretty reasonable, but common, if they needed to prohibit cross-compilers, did they really needed to do that just RIGHT BEFORE CS5 was going to ship? Any developer putting that much resources into something would be pissed. Adobe didn't make it secret, that they were devoloping an iPhone compiler, so Apple could've just told them right away it's a no-go.
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cookiecaperabout 15 years ago
I turn a steely eye to their marginalization of KHTML.<p>Otherwise, I was with it until the justification for the new clause. That justification just doesn't hold up. Developers are not going to sit around and wait for Adobe to implement a feature they need; they will do as they have done now, and implement it themselves as necessary. The justification is very lame imo.
subbuabout 15 years ago
Sachin Agarwal of Posterous explains reason#6 much better with a good example. Link here <a href="http://sachin.posterous.com/ie6-caused-the-web-to-mature-slower-than-it-w" rel="nofollow">http://sachin.posterous.com/ie6-caused-the-web-to-mature-slo...</a>
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ck2about 15 years ago
<p><pre><code> I love this paragraph, check their hypocrisy, switch Adobe/Apple: </code></pre> <i>[Apple]'s products are 100% proprietary. They are only available from [Apple], and [Apple] has sole authority as to their future enhancement, pricing, etc. While [Apple]'s products are widely available, this does not mean they are open, since they are controlled entirely by [Apple] and available only from [Apple]. By almost any definition, [Apple] is a closed system.</i>
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sadiqabout 15 years ago
There's a distinct irony that they're talking about openness, while at the same time explaining why they're preventing their own users from running software on their purchased devices.<p>If their arguments are correct, let Adobe port Flash and let users decide rather than telling them what they can and can't do with their own devices.
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ryandvmabout 15 years ago
The web without Flash would be a better place, but the fact is that there isn't any viable open replacement. Yes, HTML5 can replace Flash for video. That's great and all, but it's probably the least interesting thing that Flash does.<p>Want to use Google Analytics? Sorry. Need Flash.<p>Want to see StreetView? Need Flash.<p>Hulu? Need Flash.<p>Aviary? Need Flash.<p>Games? Need Flash.<p>Apple's answer to everything but video is to buy it from the App Store. Really? Buying shit from the App Store is not the Internet I signed up for.
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meroliphabout 15 years ago
I've jumped to the conclusions on the article and this puzzled me:<p>"The avalanche of media outlets offering their content for Apple’s mobile devices demonstrates that Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content."<p>Because media outlets are forced to make their videos available to the iPhone without being able to use Flash, this means that Flash is no longer needed?
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doronabout 15 years ago
I expect to have Flash available for my for droid soon, and for many of the reasons presented in this well articulated press release, i will not install it.<p>The thought of having to wait till a useless flash Ad render on my mobile browser, without any ability to block them is reason enough not to have it on my phone.<p>Unless Flash framework is completely revamped it will vanish to a place of old proprietary technologies, I am saddened by this, because flash offered a venue for application development to many creative people who are not programmers, and they made amazing stuff, but standards are important, and i suppose authoring tools for HTML5 will mature enough for non programmers in due time.<p>With all that said, The lock on the stream of revenue solely through the app store is to me, very hard to accept, developers should pressure apple to allow other venues, in the long run a single store is just not conducive to anything "open"
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tszmingabout 15 years ago
"If Jobs and Apple are actually committed to creativity, freedom, and individuality, they should prove it by eliminating the restrictions that make creativity and freedom illegal."<p><a href="http://www.fsf.org/news/ibad_launch" rel="nofollow">http://www.fsf.org/news/ibad_launch</a>
tom_ilsinszkiabout 15 years ago
We techies are guilty of always wanting everything. I see projects a lot of time, that won't move forward because the developers will not have the balls to stand up and draw the line between things the software will to, and the software will not do. It's just more comfortable to avoid confrontation. When I read this, I felt that Steve really knows what he wants, and in order to get it, he is willing to eliminate things that are less important (even if that means he has to hurt some of our feelings). We all can disagree with some of the points made, but in the end the iPhone is unique (and successful), because it has a clear definition of what it's not.
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tewksabout 15 years ago
The underlying situation here is that the runtime should be an open standard. Adobe's insistence that everyone should be dependent on them is absurd seeing as they have little market power to make such demands.<p>There is a huge need for a solid authoring tool for the canvas and Adobe is the right company to build such a tool.<p>Adobe has been whining for far too long about its inability to lock people into a proprietary runtime with poor performance.<p>Hardware and OS makers should have the ability to implement the runtime in ways that improve the experience. Apple is correct in insisting on such. This won't just be good for Apple, it'll be good for the entire industry.
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newobjabout 15 years ago
He had me until #6 ("the most important reason"). Really, he could have just said "battery life" and I would have said "okay, that's a good point." But going on and on about cross-platform? Let the app store sort that out. I can guarantee you that the best flash is better than the worst native app, so the argument doesn't hold much water.
ErrantXabout 15 years ago
This kind of thing should be very actively encouraged.<p>Clearly there is spin in the post - but it is at least reasoned and tries to present a cohesive argument/point of view. More of that from <i>every</i> company please.<p>I think that even if you don't fully support or agree with the arguments (some of them have been debunked or much discussed after all) I think we can support this idea of company CEO's/management writing about their thought process in complicated or controversial decisions.<p>EDIT: Uh? I made the same point many others have.. is there any reason I've got the wrong idea?
marcusboosterabout 15 years ago
And here we can find the real locus of the dispute:<p><i>"...although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5."</i><p>If Adobe didn't drag their feet for so long on the CS products, I think the other reasons wouldn't have mattered as much.
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waxmanabout 15 years ago
I love how he didn't sugarcoat Apple's core motivations:<p><i>Everyone wins – we sell more devices because we have the best apps, developers reach a wider and wider audience and customer base, and users are continually delighted by the best and broadest selection of apps on any platform.</i><p>Yeah there's a business interest. But it's also good for developers, and it's also good for end-users. And they're all interconnected.<p>Mere mortals may have been tempted to eschew the business aspect altogether, but good ol' Steve isn't afraid to tell it like it is...
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poppysanabout 15 years ago
Until there is an authoring tool as strong as Flash for Html + Javascript + css (with regard to animation and design, and the ability to integrate these animations and designs with code) - then flash is still the best game in town for games, animation, and more...<p>I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the answer to animation. Sprites are heavy, but are the only other option I can see. Even still, there is no authoring tool better than flash for animation on casual games or the web.
mrduncanabout 15 years ago
<i>Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5</i><p>If I remember correctly, iTunes isn't Cocoa based yet either.
gokhanabout 15 years ago
I don't care if iAnything supports flash or not. They can ignore Flash, Silverlight, any other third party component other than the pure HTML. Steve might be right and has all the moral rights not to support them.<p>But banning anything originally written in Flash, MonoTouch or any other rapid or not rapid external "to Object-C compiler platform" should be out of reach of Mr. Jobs' jurisdiction. As long as it runs on the platform, it's none of his business.
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j_bakerabout 15 years ago
If 3.3.1 was <i>just</i> about Flash, I'd agree with Steve. But I think that clause solves a lot more than just Flash. For instance, iPhone apps seem to be horribly unreliable in my experience. And I think part of this has to do with Objective-C on the iPhone's lack of garbage collection. I think that there's a valid point that a system like MonoTouch (which supports garbage collection) would improve the quality of iPhone apps.
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anigbrowlabout 15 years ago
Very interesting. Nothing that would make me want to buy into his vision, but then I've never been drawn to Apple's platform. It's nice to see his reasoning and product philosophy laid out so clearly. I think Apple could have saved themselves a lot of grief with mobile developers if this had come out earlier; but better late than never.<p>I hope that if Adobe responds, they'll do so in a similarly direct and civil manner.
not_an_alienabout 15 years ago
The fact that the repeats the rollover crap makes it sound as if they're really trying hard on rationalizing.<p>Just say it's a business decision, Apple. Stop pretending you have the consumer in mind.
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thmzabout 15 years ago
All these facts also apply for desktop/latop PC's.<p>Remove Flash and notice you wont miss it. More and more websites are using HTML there day's. Removing Flash also improves browser speed and stability (just as removing Adobe Reader does).<p>I did a lot of Flex developing, but I think it's time to move on.
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Xixiabout 15 years ago
"To achieve long battery life when playing video, mobile devices must decode the video in hardware; decoding it in software uses too much power."<p>Though this is not exactly news, this sounds like a confirmation of the reason Apple doesn't support Theora for html5 videos...
ianbishopabout 15 years ago
If Jobs had provided this type of specific detail before releasing 3.3.1, we could have saved ourselves lots of blogspam.
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ra88itabout 15 years ago
For me there is one single data point that shines brightly through all this noise: we are well into 2010 and nobody has Flash running well on a mobile device. Not even the mobile companies that <i>want</i> it.
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rfolstadabout 15 years ago
Pot Calling Kettle Black?<p>I don't see steve jobs allowing us to submit HTML5 apps to the appstore? They must be written in his closed proprietary format with a goal of locking you in to using their tools (xcode). Just like adobe wants to lock you into their proprietary format (flash).<p>His arguments sound good though. And it would be great for adobe to add HTML5 as a target but i don't think the spec is quite ready. Does webkit on the iphone expose all the devices to implement say chatroulette?<p>Flash is a great tool to develop cross platform apps until the html5 spec can expose enough of the underlying os.
roblocopabout 15 years ago
I think the arguments are ones we've all heard before.<p>As a Flash developer myself, it only makes me second guess myself more. Not because it presents a new point of view, but that non-technical people will now harp in on the issue, and I'll have to once more explain why I'm developing on a 'dying' platform.<p>The thing that scares me though, is that if I want to move on in my programming career, should I be learning &#60;i&#62;another&#60;/i&#62; proprietary platform to develop iPhone apps? Seems like Android is the alternative to that, but I just can't get rid of my iPhone.
angrycoderabout 15 years ago
All Apple's stubbornness does is leave more doors open for Android et all to get more penetration. Each thing you refuse to do becomes a selling point for your competitors.<p>For example, Flash support upcoming for android. <a href="http://www.edge-online.com/news/full-adobe-flash-support-for-android-22" rel="nofollow">http://www.edge-online.com/news/full-adobe-flash-support-for...</a><p>It doesn't matter if you do not like flash Steve, it is used on a significant portion of the internet. Either you work with them and find a way to make it work, or someone else will.
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jacquesmabout 15 years ago
It's simple: Power To The User.<p>If there is a choice to be made it should be up to the user. If they want to use flash, let them, if not allow them to disable it.<p>If they want to watch tiny movies on a tiny screen for only five hours instead of 10 hours at a stretch, let them.<p>Realize that when you make hardware it will be used for purposes other than the ones you intend, that's the whole idea of the power of the computer, it is a <i>universal</i> device.<p>To try to artificially limit what users can and can not do is a short term strategy, and a long term loss.
drawkboxabout 15 years ago
Adobe needs a new CEO, they have done nothing since 2008 but bad products. I wrote them a letter asking them to implement hardware rendering/acceleration in 2007 when Silverlight came out and Director 3D was dying. Now HTML5 beats flash as it is equal almost and Unity 3D beats Director 3D. They have failed to innovate since Adobe bought it from Macromedia. I blame the guidance and focus on being the market leader rather than staying fresh.
jorgecastilloabout 15 years ago
I am very glad to know that Apple assure us once again that they want a standards compliant flash-less web. This will definitely make the web a better place. As I've said before flash is only and option if you use Windows, Linux or Mac OS X if you use a *BSD based system or any alternative system you're pretty much fscked.<p>P.S. I am very tankful to Apple for taking this fight (whatever their reasons maybe).
Tichyabout 15 years ago
Still doesn't compute. It's in the responsibility of the developer to create quality software, no matter what tool he chooses. So far Apple hasn't denied apps that are low quality in general, or have they? So how does this make sense.<p>I know for certain there are bad native apps in the app store.<p>All of this has been discussed before, though. It's not news, even though it's straight from Steve Jobs.
henrikschroderabout 15 years ago
Clearly, none of you people commenting here are considering the flash gaming market. Yes, I can see how most video sites can ditch their Flash players once almost everyone has html5-capable browsers, and yes videos is the largest use-case for Flash right now, but games is the second largest, involves a lot more money, and cannot be easily replicated without Flash.<p>Also, the people making games in Flash are usually graphics designers, not programmers, and they will have a harder time jumping to new technologies, even if they reach parity. You would have to have an environment that is as rich as Adobe CS and as capable when it comes to graphic and animation design, but for html5/javascript, before you will see a significant shift there.<p>Flash is much more entrenched than you think, and no matter how much Apple or Google wishes Flash didn't exist, they won't be able to dislodge it until there are good alternatives for all the major use-cases for Flash, not just video or animated websites.
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jergoshabout 15 years ago
These reasons are true enough, but I still believe what has been clear to me ever since the argument started:<p>Apple won't allow Flash on iP* because it would defeat the purpose of App Store.<p>With Flash support, you could make responsive, native-looking online apps specifically for Apple devices without having to go through the approval process.
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montoonerabout 15 years ago
Does Javascript not use rollovers?
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jherikoabout 15 years ago
This is all very good, but my faith in it is shaken somewhat by the blatant lie "There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world."<p>I guess the PC doesn't count as a platform...
darrenkoppabout 15 years ago
Yeah, HTML5 is more open. But flash has advanced the web much faster than html and javascript have. We should not forget that HTML5 draft started in 2004. HTML4 was complete in 1995, and XHTML was complete in 2000.<p>Say what you will about flash, but I don't think going the pure html5 route is the solution. Flash and Silverlight and other plug-ins serve as great ways to test out new approaches to the web and add additional functionality to the browser that isn't there already.<p>I think HTML5 and javascript is the way to go, but sometimes you can't wait 5-10 years for innovation to be supported in ALL browsers with a consistent api.
dpnewmanabout 15 years ago
I think, somewhat ironically, that the final "most important" point #6, is by far his weakest. A platform is made stronger by having more tools to create for it. If a tool does not keep up with new platform features then it will suffer in the marketplace. There's nothing about having tool x, that prevents anyone from using tool y or Apple's own toolset.<p>I do however think that Apple is in the right to require the tools to compile to native code using native UI widgets etc, and not be a blackbox runtime. The goal of ensuring consistent user experience is valid and worthy.
ytilibitapmocabout 15 years ago
My personal favorite rebuttal is this one: <a href="http://www.simon-cozens.org/content/those-darned-layers" rel="nofollow">http://www.simon-cozens.org/content/those-darned-layers</a>
pointernilabout 15 years ago
I am aware of the fact that today a good development stack is worth gold, and many tool stacks are using some sort of virtualisation to allow for easy portability... I find it very refreshing to see Steve/Apple putting very strong arguments against wastefull portability layers... One interpretation of this all I think is: mobile needs native apps, because they are less "resource" hungry.
tmshabout 15 years ago
<i>There goes my hero</i><p><i>Watch him as he goes</i><p>Seriously, how much does this letter need a soundtrack? Flash anyone? Music with the text scrolling. Different text effects...
paul9290about 15 years ago
Unfortunately, Mr. Jobs the average person does not care about why you don't offer it. They only care and know that what they are used to getting can not be had on your platform, but can &#38; will be on other platforms.<p>This fact and doubled that you remain exclusive to AT&#38;T may turn your juggernaut around and repeat history.<p>From a happy and estatic iPhone owner/developer; best thing on market hands down!
city41about 15 years ago
He just claimed Apple created WebKit, noted it's being used everywhere, and gave no nod whatsoever to the KDE team. Classy, Jobs, classy.
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Raphaelabout 15 years ago
"Almost every smartphone web browser other than Microsoft’s uses WebKit."<p>Oh, so Presto (Opera) and Gecko (Mozilla) are chopped liver.
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InclinedPlaneabout 15 years ago
Whatever anyone's thoughts on this debate I think it's excellent that we're actually having this debate in public. This is the way the industry should work: open debate amongst industry leaders out in the open. In contrast to the behind the scenes skulduggery that seems to be the norm in business these days.
ummyeaabout 15 years ago
Strange that the response comes a day after the daily show refers to Apple (and Steve) as evil.
crux_about 15 years ago
I don't like Flash for all the stated reasons, but I like Apple's absolute control over what software I run on hardware that I've purchased even less.<p>If Adobe can convince people to run their software on their iPhones, then they should be able to.
evandavidabout 15 years ago
Wait. Isn't Final Cut Studio still written in Carbon? Talk about throwing stones in a glass house! What a strange statement to make given his obvious knowledge of the difficulty of porting such a large suite of applications.
ashishbharthiabout 15 years ago
I have never seen any thread earning this many up-votes and comments on HN!!
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NathanKPabout 15 years ago
What a brilliant explanation! It summarizes all the main points that different bloggers have come up with against flash. And if the death of flash means a boost for HTML5 then I am all for it.
Jeema3000about 15 years ago
Unfortunately for Apple, the average user doesn't care about any of this. The average user just want to go to a website and have it work. IJW technology: It Just Works.
xsmasherabout 15 years ago
What's really surprising here is such a long post with Job's name on it, in place of the one- or two-word emails we're used to. Is Steve going to start blogging now?
code_duckabout 15 years ago
How is it that Apple can feel reasonable in criticizing flash for being closed and proprietary?<p>Did I miss the iPhone OS standards committee meetings or something?
anujsethabout 15 years ago
I think the timing on this post is perfect, re-directs attention from the gizmodo thing and prevents another john stewart from happening.
applenonymousabout 15 years ago
Let's assume for the sake of argument that <i>all</i> of Steve's points are a smokescreen for what ultimately boils down to "Apple is in business to make money for Apple and Apple's shareholders, not to appease peers, developers, or even customers beyond the extent that they continue to give us their money, and anyone who stands in the way of what Apple believes to be its clearest path to profits can get bent." Why is that not okay?<p>I feel as if there's this weird assumption that Apple must make other considerations, that as the dominant player (for now) they have some obligation to make room for everyone at the table, lest they become evil, unsuccessful, or both. Why? What evidence do you have that Apple's exclusive culture and persnickety habits will result in anything but more money for shareholders, more opportunity for developers to put software in more pockets, and more sophisticated but accessible products being made available to more users?<p>I wrote <i>far</i> too much on the first pass, so I just excised a bunch, and here's the salient point: Apple didn't luck into this. They're not a clumsy giant who happened to end up with a market advantage despite themselves. They're in the position that they are because of the decisions they've made; they've deliberately created this reality for themselves. Apple doesn't wield authority over developers because tens of thousands of you decided to do Apple a solid and start writing iPhone OS Apps out of the goodness of your hearts. They managed, against really unfavorable odds and heavy competition from longstanding incumbents, to create what is arguably the best and indisputably the most successful device of its kind. Because they made decisions which resulted in that reality, should you choose to play by Apple's rules you have access to a large installed base of users—many of whom have indicated with their credit cards that they're willing to pay premium prices for premium products. I mean, how many normal humans do you know who would consider buying <i>ANY</i> software for a cell phone before the iPhone? I have many friends and acquaintances who have either told me outright or given the impression that they don't understand why one should need to purchase any software for their <i>DESKTOPS</i> beyond what comes bundled, yet each time I see them they have new paid apps installed on their iPhones. But, if you want access to them, you must play by Apple's rules. In the event that Apple adjusts 3.3.1 to state that developers must submit video evidence that they wore tricorn hats for the entire development process, if you want access to the users, you must play by Apple's rules.<p>You're free to determine that Apple's decisions of late are unsatisfactory to you, and that the potential business isn't worth the development time/unsavory feelings/brain cycles/whatever to play in Apple's game. But to imply that they have some obligation—moral or otherwise—to consider any interests but their own isn't just inaccurate, it's lunacy. Apple doing exactly whatever the hell they wanted is what created the marketplace to begin with.<p>An aside: I'm not super pleased that I have to post under this inane pseudonym, but I work for Apple Retail in the Family Room (One to One, Genius Bar, etc) and I'm prohibited from discussing Apple on the web. Yet another compromise I've made with Apple, but (for me) making decent money and having the opportunity to work with people I don't hate while I finish school is worth attempting to resist the temptation to be sucked into silly arguments on the internet...most of the time. In an attempt to preclude fanboy assumptions/accusations I will note one compromise I <i>haven't</i> made: I use an Android phone because I've had horrible experiences with AT&#38;T in the past, and I refuse to pay them one red cent, though I still hold out hope that on one of these hardware revisions the iPhone will be made available on other carrier(s).
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Cjdowneyabout 15 years ago
Great explanation and reading, sent it to my teacher and we read it in my computer class.
elblancoabout 15 years ago
It's a fascinating combination of good points and utter rubbish, but mostly rubbish. The twisted hypocritical logic here is almost entirely devoid of the introspection I would expect from Jobs. More important, if that Jobs felt the need to release this kind of statement to defend this absolutely absurd position. Yet none of what he says makes the rational claims that Gruber has already made, i.e. Apple wants to limit the platform to exclusives, by preventing cross platform development environments, it makes it harder to not make exclusives for the dominant platform. It's a calculated move designed to keep people developing for the i* devices and ignore the Android devices. Instead we get the kinds of BS nonsense that we've seen people speculate on, but would indicate a kind of madness on the part of Apple.<p>For example: <i>Adobe’s Flash products are 100% proprietary. They are only available from Adobe, and Adobe has sole authority as to their future enhancement, pricing, etc. While Adobe’s Flash products are widely available, this does not mean they are open, since they are controlled entirely by Adobe and available only from Adobe. By almost any definition, Flash is a closed system.</i><p>This is fantastic news, direct from Steve Jobs himself, Apple is going to go completely open on their products! This means that I can go and buy a copy of iWorks from Oracle now, and get a Mac Clone from Dell and an HTC built iPhone! I wonder how long it'll be until OSX is available from Canonical? <i>so excited, so excited</i><p>Other that this, the point is almost entirely incorrect. There are plenty of authoring and playback tools for flash not made by Adobe. It isn't exactly an "open standard", yes, but Adobe is not the sole source of flash stuff these days. Even a cursory search on google for flash creation tools brings back a bunch. Mr. Jobs, please follow this link <a href="http://lmgtfy.com/?q=flash+authoring+tools" rel="nofollow">http://lmgtfy.com/?q=flash+authoring+tools</a><p>Other points are better made, but some are still bad: 1) HTML5 is better 2) Webkit is neato 3) Apple never said they support the full web anyways 4) Most places have HTML5 video support nowadays, except for Hulu 5) Who needs flash for games anyway, i* devices have tons. 6) Flash = bad security 7) Flash = poor performance 8) Flash = eats batteries 9) Flash doesn't work great with touch 10) Third party content development tools suck! The people who use them suck! The crap that comes out of them sucks too! Anybody who think differently was born wrong! 11) Adobe should be making HTML5 authoring tools anyways.<p>What Apple should do is put Flash through the exact same approval process it puts other apps through. Make Adobe work for it, but don't just simply cut it off like a tantrum throwing child that can't share. If these are the problems with Flash, kick it back with comments and force Adobe to fix brokeness to get approval through the store. Adobe being open or not being open is a garbage point as I noted above. Apple doesn't require any of the apps in the app store to be open standards compliant. The mechanism for dealing with all of these problems is already there and it's simple -- the app store. There's no need to "work with Adobe", just reject it from the store the same way lots of apps are rejected after the screening process. Lots of apps eat batteries. Is that a new rejection criteria, "apps may not consume battery life."? If I want to run down my device in 5 hours instead of 10, that seems to be my problem.<p>1) HTML5 is still very very immature technology with almost no good toolchain support for authoring HTML apps. It's still a pile of languages glued together in a browser that sometimes makes something useful or interesting, but also really really processor intensive and slow. We all ooh and aah, everytime we see a canvas demo that eats up 100% CPU time on a quad core system displaying something that we all saw in 1996! By just this simple test, points 7-8 are almost completely invalid. Does flash perform worse than native apps and use more battery? Sure! So does playing an intensive game!<p>2) Webkit <i>is</i> neato, but webkit is a different thing than Flash. It makes no sense to compare the two. It's like comparing webkit and iworks for the iPad. By this logic, Apple should also not sell iWorks for those devices but just point everybody to Google Docs.<p>3) That's okay, that's why there are 3rd parties who can build stuff to support it for you.<p>4) Good point. This is definitely the wave of the future, Hulu needs to catch up. The point about hardware decoding is also fair I think.<p>5) i* devices do have tons of games true (Steve, I hope you now see the connection between entertainment software and platform sales, it's eluded you on the Mac for years). But those games are not flash games. I want to play flash games on my i* device. Period. I am the consumer, and I get to demand what I want to purchase. The only fair point I think is that most flash games don't work well via a touch interface. I have to agree with this. But there are also plenty of flash apps that are not games that would be amazing on an iPad. I want to use those. <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1295052" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1295052</a> And no bit of HTML5 will replace these kinds of things for at least 12-24 months. Flash is not just about video and games.<p>The i* platforms also do not have the most pieces of entertainment software of any platform. Apple needs to simply stop exaggerating their claims to the point of absurdity.<p>6,7,8) see point about app store rejection above.<p>9) Agreed, though some flash apps might work well. Or apps could be written to work well with it <i>exactly</i> the same as making an HTML5 canvas app work well with the i* devices. This BS about mouseover events, and device features is also true of the web, yet that doesn't seem to be a reason to yank Safari mobile off of the devices.<p>10) This is the most noticeable pile of utter garbage in this entire thing. Somebody here did a survey of the top i* device apps and many of them were made with third party tools or contained elements that are now in violation of the new terms. Most of those apps were of superior quality. Just because the tool chain is made by somebody else does not mean the output will suck. Conversely, just because the toolchain is Apple approved, does not mean that all apps that use that toolcahin are going to be free of suckage. There are lots of shitty apps in the app store, <i>lots</i>, and I'd bet the vast majority of them were written with the approved toolchain.<p>11) I think we can all agree that HTML5 is immature as a technology. Adobe makes great authoring tools. Therefore, Adobe should make great HTML5 authoring tools. I think we can all agree on this. Flash <i>is</i> eventually going to go away. But in the meantime it's still a useful piece of technology. Just because quartz timing devices will all eventually go away doesn't mean that we should just stop using quartz timing devices. But even if Adobe started today, flash would be a predominant force on the web for 3-5 years.<p>Finally, this is all a giant pile of misdirection. Point 10 is the key one not flash.
jroesabout 15 years ago
We want the web to be open and free while we keep everything we do on our end closed and make tons of money. Oh, and don't let anyone else try to profit from their proprietary stuff either (unless we get a cut).
loup-vaillantabout 15 years ago
&#62; Flash was created during the PC era<p>Do they actually believe that things like the iPhone and the iPad will displace our old PCs? No way. Not with the DRMs.
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NathanKPabout 15 years ago
At 712 points this is the highest upvoted post I have ever seen on Hacker News.
tmanabout 15 years ago
1. Open -- We're the freetards now. Booyah.<p>2. Full Web -- You don't really want Flash.<p>3. R,S,P -- Flash is some buggy shit.<p>4. Battery -- Forcing you not to use Flash saves your batteries! Aren't we nice?<p>5. Touch -- Multi-touch fail. We can't hover like a mouse.<p>6. We're saving the developers from themselves. The morons.
mobileedabout 15 years ago
It's good Jobs attempts to lay out his reasoning with facts but his facts are not all that correct.<p>Flash has been ported to mobile device. Windows Automotive, a version of WindowsCE, has flash. The Ford Sync system's front UI is completely flash and action script. I know because I work on the system.<p>I mostly agree with Jobs reasoning though. He makes very good points but it would be nice if he could get his facts right.
c00p3rabout 15 years ago
I wonder if all my down votes come back.. =)<p>btw, flash and online video is not the case. It is possible to download almost any video somehow.<p>All that crappy blinking and flashing ads is what flash is really for.
mun411about 15 years ago
the arguments against Adobe flash is quite thought provoking.
maheshsabout 15 years ago
"Flash is a closed system." What about apple? But Apple clearly said their reason, using facts and argument.
jamesshamenskiabout 15 years ago
How can apple crap on Adobe's proprietary tools when Apple send me updates for QuickTime every week. Hypocritical.
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snissnabout 15 years ago
Hi Steve Jobs!
jim_dotabout 15 years ago
Jobs doesn't want “a third party layer of software (to) come between the platform and the developer"... cause that's the job of the first-party layer.
ThomPeteabout 15 years ago
There are so many things wrong with Jobs explanation I don't know where to begin.<p>But two claims really pisses me off.<p>Battery Life<p>If I activate push notification it sure isn't nice to my battery. So I switch it off.<p>The same thing could be done with flash. Or even better, make flash an opt in. What's the problem.<p>Yes I know apple can claim that it will affect peoples impression of their products, but so do not having flash.<p>Touch<p>This really is a strawman of enormous proportions.<p>First. There are plenty of html pages out there that have roll-over. Plenty of menus that expand as you roll over them.<p>Second. Rollover states is not a problem for most flash websites that users use. In fact Apple could simply allow for rollovers to be activated on push down and click on release.<p>I love apples products, but they are simply in the wrong here. I love my iPad but not being able to see flash sites is really getting quite annoying.
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davidedicilloabout 15 years ago
copy url -&#62; open mail -&#62; paste -&#62; sending to &#60;undisclosed emails... lots of them&#62;
betageekabout 15 years ago
I don't buy this at all, although some of the reasoning is sound there's some jaw-dropping rubbish in this statement. esp. around 'openess'. This is one big red herring - Adobe pissed Jobs off, this is his revenge, end of story.
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