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Beware of Developers Who Do Negative Work

255 pointsby beekumsover 8 years ago

40 comments

ThePhysicistover 8 years ago
Considering that the author writes on his resume that he lead several teams, it startles me a bit to see how easily he puts all the blame on the developer and none on the other team members (including him) and the management.<p>The way I see it, as a senior developer or team lead it is your job to make sure that your junior level programmers are doing good work, and if they don&#x27;t, you either help them to improve or (if that&#x27;s not possible) let them go. Whenever I hear a story like &quot;this person did bad work for six months so we had to delete all his code changes and let him go&quot; I immediately know that something is very wrong with the management of the software project in question, as in a good team structure it&#x27;s just not possible that a single person does &quot;negative work&quot; for several months, let alone a year without being noticed.<p>Also, whether a developer will do good or bad work does not only depend on his&#x2F;her ability, but also on the circumstances under which he&#x2F;she works. Some people need more oversight and a tighter feedback loop to be productive, while others can work in a more independent way. In any case, with a good team process it is really hard for a single person to do negative work, and if it happens it&#x27;s usually the fault of at least several people (due to lack of clear standards, missing feedback cycles or lack of ownership).<p>So if you&#x27;re a senior developer or team lead, don&#x27;t put the blame on other programmers, but instead ask yourself how you can build a process that makes it really hard for individual programmers to do bad work.
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userbinatorover 8 years ago
<i>An even more egregious form of negative work is a developer who is stuck using out of date programming practices AND has a large amount of influence at a company.</i><p>At the other extreme is the developer who is so entranced by &quot;newer is better&quot; mentality that they rewrite everything in an attempt to conform to &quot;latest best practices&quot;, increasing complexity massively while introducing a bunch of bugs and huge dependencies no one ever actually needed. I&#x27;ve experienced that (and had to undo the mess) a few times.<p>Relatedly, just as there are &quot;10x&quot; developers, there are &quot;-10x&quot; as well --- it takes the average developer 10 times as long to fix as one of these takes to break.
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ianbickingover 8 years ago
I would fault this article for treating each developer as a being intrinsically good or bad. I&#x27;ve seen people I know are very talented (based on past work) become negative developers. Depression is a common cause. If they are underperforming they may react to their own self-disappointment by acting defensive and resisting change of the inclusion of anyone they think may judge them. I think there&#x27;s many destructive feedback cycles that can turn a good developer into a negative developer.
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gumbyover 8 years ago
I have one exception to the &quot;convoluted code&quot; developer. I worked with a guy whose code was pure spaghetti. Mostly write-only code.<p>BUT: if a customer had a crisis he was the person to send. Amazingly quickly he would suss out the problem and get things running -- making the customer happy and rescuing the SLA. And he could explain what the problem was so someone else could implement it again, properly, perhaps in 10X the time, and ship the patch to all the customers.<p>In other words: if the river was rising and the dam was leaking, this guy would stride in confidently and jam his fingers into all the holes, saving the city. Not a long term or scalable fix, but preventing disaster.<p>(I&#x27;m pretty sure 50% of developers on HN have used this guy&#x27;s code BTW).
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matt_wulfeckover 8 years ago
&gt; <i>So if the cost of a developer who does negative work is so high, how do they get hired? Part of it can be explained by an interview process that needs improvement, but a less talked about part is the temptation to lower hiring standards.</i><p>I&#x27;ve seen plenty of people who can reverse binary trees or fizzbang etc who are terrible additions to teams and do &quot;negative work&quot;. That&#x27;s because having a grasp of CS fundamentals and know how to contribute to a team are totally different skills.<p>The way to overcome this is not smarter and&#x2F;or more challenging interview questions, but by hiring engineers that come recommended by other engineers. This is <i>by far</i> the greatest indicator of a successful engineer I&#x27;ve ever seen. Nothing comes close to it. As far as I care, if someone I work with and respect recommends someone else that&#x27;s enough for me to give them a try without even needing to whiteboard.
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agentultraover 8 years ago
The &quot;convoluted code&quot; gauge is a double-edged sword. You could also be working at a company with developers who have no experience with the benefits of functional programming. In this scenario it&#x27;s those who write nested loops, branching if-statements, and mutating side-effects that are in charge and you&#x27;re the bad developer for using fold and map. You could be seen as an elitist who likes to write clever, obfuscated code that nobody else can comprehend.<p>Not all positive contributions are worthwhile. One could simply blend in and add one more level of nesting, one more conditional, and mutate a few things here n there. After all, everyone knows what a for-loop is, right? Staying productive is important!<p>Well... until your most productive hours are spent chasing down errors you and your team designed.
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lordnachoover 8 years ago
Good points. Regarding how such people come to influence, you have to remember a lot of people, especially in startups, are not hired through a process at all.<p>I worked with a guy for many years who was as described in this article.<p>He can&#x27;t code and he can&#x27;t do any math, despite holding a phd. He can talk about math and he can talk about code, but we&#x27;re talking excel level skills when what you need is someone with a modern ML level skillset.<p>He made all the decisions about which trading strategies were worth pursuing and which ones weren&#x27;t, despite the presence of plenty of more qualified people.<p>How could this be? First of all, the boss of the fund did not have the skills to judge who could write a trading strategy, and who couldn&#x27;t. So he was stuck with recommendations from other people who also didn&#x27;t have this skill, leading to this hire. He also relied on his bias towards people of his own ethnic group, which benefitted this chap we&#x27;re talking about greatly.<p>Essentially, broken feedback. Someone who can&#x27;t judge relying on the judgement of someone who isn&#x27;t competent but has his ear.<p>I&#x27;m sure this has happened to a lot of folks. Probably you need a somewhat larger organisation for there to be enough informed people to point fingers, and you need some luck for the culture to be such that a complaint would actually come through rather than be suppressed.
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d--bover 8 years ago
Maybe the guy was really dumb or &quot;awful&quot; as the author puts it, but I think it is wrong to blame it all on the hired developer.<p>It&#x27;s like in sports, there can be great players underperforming because of the wrong team &#x2F; wrong coach.<p>When a team hires a person, there is a decent amount of time during which the hired person&#x27;s code is not coherent with the hiring team&#x27;s. During that period, the hired person must be trained so that the code can match the quality standards &#x2F; spirit of the team. During that time, other devs have to mentor the new dev, which in itself is &quot;negative work&quot;.<p>What the author is really saying here is &quot;beware of the developer that needs training&quot;. Of course it&#x27;d be better if all new hires didn&#x27;t need any training, but it is unrealistic.<p>Training is necessary for all new hires, not because people don&#x27;t code properly, but because their coding style not necessarily match the hiring team. You can hire a very experienced developer who you feel spends too much time on testing, while your team has a more &quot;move fast a break things&quot; approach to dev. Or having people who are used use design patterns, because it worked in their previous workplace. There is always some time required to adapt.<p>Hiring a developer and have him check in 2 things in a period of 6 months is a failure of the entire team. If the guy was so awful, that should have been spotted in the first 2 weeks. And his &quot;awful&quot; code would certainly not have gone through to production.
pipio21over 8 years ago
As an entrepreneur and former manager and engineer I find this analysis too simplistic.<p>In particular he talks about outdated methods making work negative and while I agree, most of the time I find the opposite problem: most programmers wanting to use the new language of the Week.<p>The new language of the Week was so great and saved so much time on some area but because it is not production ready you are forced to fill the gaps and do a ton of work that would never be necessary with the mature language in other areas, like installing libraries and dependencies, resolving conflicts that nobody had solved before because so few people use the new language...or just debugging the new language itself.<p>Also as a manager it is your job and responsibility to make things work. If you can&#x27;t see the problems before they happen and manage it it is your fault, not the developer&#x27;s.<p>People have a lot of psychological delusions and faults, but as a manager you study them and if you are good could handle it easily. If a soccer team is not well organized is not the responsibility of the players.<p>If a person has a tendency to use outdated software like the player wanting to dribble to much, you correct it and basically everybody is happy. When things go good and you have success everybody is happy.
analog31over 8 years ago
While the concept of negative work is certainly instructive, my misgiving is that it&#x27;s probably difficult or impossible to measure the overall value added (or subtracted) by any worker in a complex organization.<p>My guess is that most of us have our positive and negative moments, and hopefully the positives outweigh the negatives.
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maus42over 8 years ago
The blog post reiterates what everybody probably already knows; similar content gets posted on HN semi-regularly.<p>On the other hand, I&#x27;ve also heard that most of interns&#x27; &#x2F; junior devs&#x27; first projects end up shelved (i.e. net contribution = 0).<p>From a viewpoint of a mediocre developer, a far more interesting question is how to get into the feedback loop where you actually <i>learn</i> from your mistakes and the quality of your contributions <i>improves</i>.
beejiuover 8 years ago
The solution to this problem is code review. Good developers do not want bad code in the codebase. If you give them authority to stop bad code getting in, it won&#x27;t.<p>Unfortunately, &#x27;negative work&#x27; developers are often perceived by the rest of the organisation to be doing good work. They can make quick changes and deliver results fast. It is almost impossible to measure the real impact a developer&#x27;s changes has, but easy to measure how much they are doing week-by-week. Therefore, the only practical way to make the issue apparent is by stopping the bad code getting in.<p>So when the developer says my work is &quot;done&quot;, it sits in code review for another 2-3 works until it is &quot;done done&quot;.
tyingqover 8 years ago
<i>&quot;He made 2 changes to the code base over his 6-month tenure there.&quot;</i><p>And the context implies those were the only 2 changes&#x2F;check-ins. Seems odd that nobody questioned the low output.
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mschuster91over 8 years ago
&gt; An even more egregious form of negative work is a developer who is stuck using out of date programming practices AND has a large amount of influence at a company.<p>Well, out of date may also be seen as &quot;battle proven&quot;. Just look at the JS scene and Angular 1 vs 2 (not to mention the boatload of now dead frameworks, tools etc)... often enough sticking with proven tech instead of hipster dung is the more long-term viable solution. But of course to do this, managers and developers have to adopt a long-term view (one or two years) instead of a 2 week sprint...
dankohn1over 8 years ago
There&#x27;s this magical process called continuous integration that internalizes the impact of bad (or, more likely, misguided) developers. Don&#x27;t let them merge their branch until all tests pass. If their commit breaks something while all tests still pass, then direct them to write the missing tests.
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Chris2048over 8 years ago
&gt; one influential developer didn’t like any kind of change and they were allowed to veto any forward progress<p>I&#x27;m a little skeptical, it feels like I&#x27;m only hearing one side of a story. How does the author justify the characterization &quot;didn’t like any kind of change&quot;.
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stevehiehnover 8 years ago
You are making the calculation at a point in time. What if the &#x27;bad&#x27; developer is on a fast growth curve and in only a few months time will be a net gain for the company?
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ashish_bover 8 years ago
This guy is so negative. The word &#x27;bad&#x27; itself fills you with so many negative connotations. What were the reviewers doing when so called bad developer was pushing code?
gbvbover 8 years ago
Without sounding like a curmudgeon, &quot;An even more egregious form of negative work is a developer who is stuck using out of date programming practices AND has a large amount of influence at a company. &quot; can happen when new developers come up with ways of re-writing applications without understanding the full problem statement or spending the time to understand the existing codebase. Usually, they might have worked on a small to medium sized projects and show up to work on a project with millions of lines of code with teams in different geographies and expect to change things across the board. When the same explanation has to be given the 15th time, you can turn into a toad and start saying &quot;NO&quot; first. :)
hibikirover 8 years ago
It&#x27;s true that not all developers make positive contributions, however, I think that blaming &quot;lowering hiring standards&quot;, as the author said, is a complete red herring.<p>There is such thing as hiring without doing even the most basic test for technical competency: Last year, at a different job, I worked with a guy that though the best way to implement a CRUD service was an nginx plugin, and when faced with a real programming language, managed about 4 lines of code a week, and not good ones. But that&#x27;s an extreme case of not even checking.<p>In practice, we have to face that all that our quest for more stringent hiring standards is not really selecting the best, but just selecting fewer people, in ways that might, or might not, have anything to do with being good at a job. Let&#x27;s go through a few examples in my career:<p>A guy that was the most prolific developer I have ever seen: He&#x27;d rewrite entire subsystems over a weekend. The problem is that said susbsytems were not necessarily better than they started, trading bugs for bugs, and anyone that wanted to work on them would have to relearn that programmer&#x27;s idiosyncrasies of the week. He easily cost his project 12 man&#x2F;months of work in 4 months, the length of time it took for management to realize that he had to be let go.<p>A company&#x27;s big UI framework was quite broken, and a new developer came in and fixed it. Great, right? Well, he was handed code review veto to changes into the framework, and his standards and his demeanor made people stop contributing after two or three attempts. In practice, the framework died as people found it antiquated, and they decided to build a new one: Well, the same developer was tasked with building new framwork, which was made mandatory for 200+ developers to use. Total contribution was clearly negative.<p>A developer that was very fast, and wrote working code, had been managing a rather large 500K line codebase, and received some developers as help. He didn&#x27;t believe in internal documentation or on keeping interfaces stable. He also didn&#x27;t believe in writing code that wasn&#x27;t brittle, or in unit tests: Code changes from the new developers often broke things, the veteran would come in, fix everything in the middle of the emergency, and look absolutely great, while all the other developers looked to management as if they were incompetent. They were not, however: they were quite successful when moved to other teams. It just happens that the original developer made sure nobody else could touch anything. Eventually, the experiment was retried after the original developer was sent to do other things. It took a few months, but the new replacement team managed to modularize the code, and new people could actually modify the codebase productively.<p>All of those negative value developers could probably be very valuable in very specific conditions, and they&#x27;d look just fine in a tough job interview. They were still terrible hires. In my experience, if anything, a harder process that demands people to appear smarter or work faster in an interview have the opposite effect of what I&#x27;d want: They end up selecting for people that think less and do more quickly, building debt faster.<p>My favorite developers ever all do badly in your typical stringent Silicon Valley intervew. They work slower, do more thinking, and consider every line of code they write technical debt. They won&#x27;t have a million algorithms memorized: They&#x27;ll go look at sources more often than not, and will spend a lot of time on tests that might as well be documentation. Very few of those traits are positive in an interview, but I think they are vital in creating good teams, but few select for them at all.<p>So I think that it&#x27;s better to be a bit less stringent early, make take homes part of the interviews, and just learn that it&#x27;s OK to fire people if they aren&#x27;t working out.
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rokosbasiliskover 8 years ago
After reading the article, I feel like a code test and discussion and or whiteboard would have filtered the type of developer they mentioned who is a net negative on the code base.
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benjaminRRRover 8 years ago
There are both upstream problems (hiring the wrong people) and downstream problems (having process to catch garbage before it gets into mainline). You need both as you will inevitably make a bad hire somewhere along the way. For downstream prevention you need good processes to catch poor quality code. We&#x27;ve found that automated (static analysis [we like sonarqube]) plus consistent human code reviews goes a long way to ensuring a high quality code base.
GoToROover 8 years ago
The way I&#x27;ve seen it happen is this: you have some developers, some are good, some are not that good. The good developers leave, the bad stay. In time that bad developer will be the only one on the team that has 10 years experience. It will be the only person that knows all the little details of your project and so he will even get a management position, or a senior title. Of course, all those details should be documented somewhere but they are not.
at-fates-handsover 8 years ago
The funny thing is I read a the first few paragraphs and thought two things. .<p>1 - proper onboarding<p>2 - standardized code<p>My first gig as a developer was at a place that hammered out some 2,000 websites a year. When you start to think about that number, you get a headache. That roughly meant that our devs were required to cut up a psd, code and integrate 15-18 sites a month.<p>In order to do this, you need to have really strict standards. You need to have a stable, repeatable process in place to be able to handle that many sites in a year.<p>Two things the company did to ensure this was to first to have a two week training. Then you did pair programming for another two months. By the third month, you were far enough along where you knew the standard templates, the naming conventions, the JS conventions and you stuck in that lane and didn&#x27;t do anything outside of that without a senior devs approval.<p>This lead to having standardized code for every site that was built. You could pull out a site that was developed two years ago and easily change or update the code because everybody coded the same way so it was easy to dig into the code and find or change something. The advantages were obvious. Minimal cross browser issues, standardized coding by developers, faster dev times, less errors and weird coding issues like the author points out. It literally came down to then how fast a dev can code and how productive he can be.<p>Sure, it was a little repetitive and boring at times, but the efficiencies were undeniable. That company was the last place I worked at where they went to such great lengths to train and standardize their processes. I&#x27;ve since run into many of the issues the author points out because of the lack of coding standards and training new devs to those standards.
jonaldomoover 8 years ago
Sounds like you have no process: Before task is assigned, there should be a technical design and acceptance criteria. All code should be peer reviewed. All code should have an attached unit test. All code should be tested in a dev and cert environment.
sextus_propover 8 years ago
Interesting, just recently read about similar concept from Chris Hadfield&#x27;s book &quot;An Astronaut&#x27;s Guide to Life on Earth&quot;. He puts all team newcomers intro three categories minus ones, zeros and plus ones. Basically minus ones will think they always know better and do not spend effort on familiarizing themself with existing system, they also ignore epistemological category of &quot;unknown unknowns&quot;. Chris recommends always to strive for being a zero at first.
kelvin0over 8 years ago
TL;DR: Some devs introduce toxic code in your codebase, you shouldn&#x27;t hire them.<p>However, it seems to me proper code reviews and mentoring would have prevented that in the first place? That&#x27;s an important responsibility for the &#x27;good&#x27; devs, and you can&#x27;t simply complain after the fact if you aren&#x27;t proactive in that sense.
ArkyBeagleover 8 years ago
If A. Random Developer <i>can&#x27;t tell</i> that&#x2F;if her changes work before checking them in, then ... how are they to justify checking them in at all?<p>A first alternate to actually testing things might be &quot;conformance to a model of Best Practices for changes that we think might - maybe - do minimum damage.&quot;
alphanumeric0over 8 years ago
For certain definitions of what is considered a positive contribution.<p>If the resident developer A has used the wrong approach to solving a problem and developer B comes along and uses a better approach, dev B could be seen as introducing something overly complicated and less understandable.
rurbanover 8 years ago
I call them destructive, or previously also &quot;negative busfactor&quot;. Without the few bad apples in my community the product would actually get better, but so far it continues to decline over the last 15 years.
ctackover 8 years ago
This article is the stuff of Imposter Syndrome nightmares.
partycoderover 8 years ago
Well, I&#x27;ve met people that have created decades worth of work through technical debt.<p>When you reach that point it is easier to just start over.
dreamcompilerover 8 years ago
Absolutely true. Bad developers are not the ones who don&#x27;t carry their weight. Bad developers pull the whole team backward.
0xdeadbeefbabeover 8 years ago
So, I ought to beware of those plan9 guys, eh?
sriram_iyengarover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m surprised developers still do this in an era of &#x27;frequent commits&#x27;
edblarneyover 8 years ago
There is another kind of pernicious developer: the one who writes large amounts of seemingly effective, but ultimately bloated code.<p>What we often fail to realize is that &#x27;code = cost&#x27;. Once written, code has to be maintained, and every line adds to the inherent complexity of the system.<p>I think we are all familiar with that old IBM (OS&#x2F;2?) allegory of the dev who mostly spent time removing code from the system, and had to justify his salary because they were measuring &#x27;lines produced&#x27; as a metric. If you can &#x27;remove a line of code&#x27; from software and it still &#x27;does the same thing&#x27; ... well, that&#x27;s definitely worth more than adding code :).<p>Anyhow, it&#x27;s worth considering that &#x27;number of lines of code&#x27; is really quite a bad measure of anything.<p>Second - some people are really bright, but they struggle with clarity etc.. Perhaps it would be appropriate to put someone like this on a bug clearing team? They can &#x27;solve problems&#x27; by tracking down issues, and hopefully fix them. &#x27;Fixing&#x27; code is often much safer than writing new code as the patterns, standards, practices are already &#x27;in place&#x27;.<p>It&#x27;s a rather a paradoxical and intriguing business, writing code!
joshuaNathanielover 8 years ago
&gt; Bad Developer spends 5 hours writing convoluted code. Other 4 developers on the team each spend 10 hours each trying to figure out how it works.<p>Data please.
atomicalover 8 years ago
Who is the professor?
crispytxover 8 years ago
Maybe these developers that produce &quot;negative work&quot; think your code sucks. Ever consider that?
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jasonlotitoover 8 years ago
Not all developers make positive contributions, but no single developer in a team of developers can make a non-positive contribution. They can&#x27;t, because as a team, you&#x27;ve decided to allow this person to make contributions alone. You need to own that contribution. If you don&#x27;t want to that responsibility, there is a solution: code reviews.<p>Anything that gets submitted is literally something you&#x27;ve agreed to support and are okay with being in the code base.
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