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A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

625 pointsby tbassettoover 8 years ago

53 comments

renaudgover 8 years ago
Regarding French salaries again : yes they are lower than elsewhere but with some exceptions, French employers are not the problem : they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes.<p>In exchange, employees get as standard :<p>* a top notch, virtually free healthcare system with no concept of exclusions or &quot;pre-conditions&quot;<p>* Usually no student loans to repay because their higher education was free, unless they went for a private business&#x2F;engineering school but that&#x27;s still an order of magnitude cheaper than a US university.<p>* a comfortable (unsustainable ?) state pension later on.<p>* unemployment insurance that covers around 70% pay for months.<p>* 5 weeks holiday + public holidays<p>* Non San Francisco &#x2F; London &#x2F; NYC renting costs (although Paris is quite bad by French standards, and much worse than Berlin)<p>If you&#x27;re US-based, think about your monthly budget and what goes towards healthcare&#x2F;co-pay, student loans, kids college fund, 401k, and building an emergency fund in case you get laid off &#x2F; severely ill. None of that is strictly required in France (although some of it is available as extra private coverage, and a good idea)<p>This is why cross-border salary comparisons are pointless, it&#x27;s really apples &amp; oranges.<p>I&#x27;m French and living in London, and I&#x27;d personally rather have the freedom to have a higher take-home pay and contribute towards the above items myself as I see fit. But I&#x27;m not fooling myself thinking that because my take-home pay is twice as high each month, the math is as simple as that. I know that I&#x27;m so much more on my own here than at home...
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frwoover 8 years ago
French salaries are much lower and taxes are extremely high for high income earners. There&#x27;s more than one tax on your income! There&#x27;s the regular &quot;impôt&quot; but also the &quot;contribution solidarité&quot; which is legally considered &quot;not a tax&quot; but cost you a percentage of your income. And a &quot;taxe d&#x27;habitation&quot; too (which is proportional to your rent rather than income). There&#x27;s quite a bit of misrepresentation and wordplay all over, so be careful if you are used to different social norms.<p>France has been in a state of emergency (&quot;état d&#x27;urgence&quot;) since november 2015, having been prolonged many times. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;States_of_emergency_in_France" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;States_of_emergency_in_France</a><p>Having said that, the longer vacations are indeed true but that&#x27;s the case for other European countries too.<p>I don&#x27;t see how making one administrative task a bit easier (while all others can be extremely difficult) is going attract talent, except through the usual misrepresentation.
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renaudgover 8 years ago
Raw salary comparisons miss the point : you can&#x27;t really compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure.<p>The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up.<p>I&#x27;m French, working in London and I&#x27;ve been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.
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jlangenauerover 8 years ago
Apropos of this, I was in Paris recently at a startup event, and was pleasantly shocked at the sheer number of startups and people I saw doing things.<p>This is a good move by the French, and will help attract entrepreneurs away from other countries (particularly like those just across the channel currently inflicting generational economic damage on themselves.)
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Raphmediaover 8 years ago
As someone who lives in Montreal, that&#x27;s very strange to see. We import French talent by the hundreds because they are lacking interesting tech jobs over there.
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danjocover 8 years ago
No. Sorry. Not interested... French crypto regulations are absurd.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;yro.slashdot.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;16&#x2F;03&#x2F;03&#x2F;235220&#x2F;french-bill-carries-5-year-jail-sentence-for-company-refusals-to-decrypt-data-for-police" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;yro.slashdot.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;16&#x2F;03&#x2F;03&#x2F;235220&#x2F;french-bill-c...</a>
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bankimover 8 years ago
What are salaries like for mid-senior level software engineers working in tech companies in Paris? What are the tax rates i.e pay after taxes?
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trvlngsalesmnover 8 years ago
&gt; Family: “Talent Passport – Family” residence permit granted to spouse of the main applicant, guaranteeing identical family treatment and automatic labor market access (as an employee, business founder, etc.).<p>I opened the link to see how it would treat families. Much to my surprise, it gives spouses access to the labor market, too.
intralizeeover 8 years ago
I would love to go to France.<p>I&#x27;m in US right now, 1 semester left for degree and have interned at a respectable company. I wonder if they&#x27;re looking for experienced engineers over fresh ones.<p>I&#x27;ve read so much that work life and culture is so much better in France, so heres hoping...
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finidover 8 years ago
So I tried to subscribe again and finally got a response, which reads:<p>` Bonjour,<p>Nous vous confirmons que nous venons de recevoir votre email depuis <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;visa.lafrenchtech.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;visa.lafrenchtech.com</a><p>Merci. A très vite.<p>Bonne journée<p>Envoyé depuis <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;visa.lafrenchtech.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;visa.lafrenchtech.com</a> `<p>No big deal, I have a pretty good idea what that means, even though I don&#x27;t speak French, but if they&#x27;re trying to market to an English-speaking audience, me thinks they should at least have a version of that message in English.
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randomname2over 8 years ago
The UK has a similar visa for senior engineers: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.techcityuk.com&#x2F;tech-nation-visa&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.techcityuk.com&#x2F;tech-nation-visa&#x2F;</a><p>&quot;This specific visa can be used for talent coming from anywhere in the world. As an example, we are aware of a recent senior hire from the US that got his visa returned to him in his passport exactly 28 days from submission. This specific visa puts an individual on track to Indefinite Leave to Remain and Citizenship with no need to stick with a particular employer.&quot;
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coredog64over 8 years ago
For anyone that is really interested in this, I would first recommend reading Stephen Clarke&#x27;s &quot;A Year in the Merde&quot;. It&#x27;s a humorous look at what it&#x27;s like to live and work in France. Despite being over the top, there is still a large element of truth to the stories.
bqlouover 8 years ago
Trying to add my piece of advice here with some interesting readings... I&#x27;m French, not a parisian (yes, we <i>do</i> exist), working in south of France. So for my (strictly) personal point of view, I hope to never work in Paris as this is a &quot;too intense&quot; city (this is just my way of life). <i>But</i>, creating a startup there is almost mandatory : lot of VC living there, important infrastructures ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;stationf.co&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;stationf.co&#x2F;</a> for example, and many others).<p>As many people said it, administration is hell (but it&#x27;s getting better over years, thanks you www). So to avoid your hr, legal, financial stuff, <i></i>take an accountant<i></i> so you can do your job... Maybe it&#x27;s 200€&#x2F;m, but 200&#x2F;m is like what ? a 2 days budget&#x2F;month ? trust me, you don&#x27;t want to waste your time on this.<p>On the tax part, yes, there are a lot, and it&#x27;s a better move for a french student to move to the US than an american student to move to France. Why? We don&#x27;t have a 100k student credit to pay for (Very good public schools, and when I say public, it&#x27;s between 500€ and 2500€ &#x2F; yr). But more and more, administrations and institutions help startup founders financially. Maybe you should look for someone to take care of public grants (even if they take a commission on it) so you don&#x27;t have to take care of this? Health insurance included, etc. It&#x27;s a lot in the end but... meh, we always need a reason to whine you know.<p>On the language part, yep. We are terrible. But in all the industries around my work, english is mandatory. In my comp, requirements are in english, project management tools are in english, etc. It&#x27;s simple, it&#x27;s mandatory to work in english in our techy fields, so we can&#x27;t avoid that. But yes, going to the bakery and speaking in english might be hard first. But once you know how to pronounce &quot;Croissant&quot;, you&#x27;ll be okay.<p>Oh, and we have good food (but haven&#x27;t found a good beer (yet) :).<p>Sincirely hope you will be more than pleased if you plan to come to France though...
manuelbiehover 8 years ago
If you take a look at the french economy, their political system, their tax rates and social security system you don&#x27;t actually want to work and&#x2F;or live there as a startup founder, so no need for a visa. Nice try, France.<p>&#x2F;&#x2F; edit: ah, not to forget about their unwillingness to treat you as human being when not speaking their language.
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mavdiover 8 years ago
Great move. This is how US started a golden age. Encouraging outlooking and talented migrants with ZERO public money spent on getting them to that level. Free talent. And btw, outlooking and talented migrants are exactly the kind that will want to blend in and cause no problems.
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adamnemecekover 8 years ago
Isn&#x27;t it like super hard to setup a startup in France? That being said, the talent coming out of all the grandes ecoles seems definitely underutilized.
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esfandiaover 8 years ago
The &quot;4-year renewable&quot; visa would make me hesitate, unless you don&#x27;t mind going back to where you came from in case your business didn&#x27;t work out or you got laid off. The feeling that you&#x27;re in a temporary situation can&#x27;t be very nice, and will prevent you from fully committing and settling down properly.<p>Why not offer a Green Card or some other kind of Permanent Residency?
MicroBertoover 8 years ago
Does the 33% corporate tax rate and ~30% personal income tax rate (at a €30k salary) apply to them?
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netman21over 8 years ago
Surprised that the comments here are from the perspective of an employee considering moving to France when the purpose of the visa is to attract <i>founders</i>. Try founding a tech company when you are paying all those employment taxes for everyone you hire. And then they are only allowed to work 35 hours a week. I helped a startup during the dot com boom in Paris. They said the &quot;employment police&quot; would stake out their building to ensure nobody worked too long. And good luck holding on to anything if you sell. Sorry France. Nice try.
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bogomipzover 8 years ago
Does anyone know how big of an impediment is not knowing French?<p>EDIT: I should have articulated my question better by saying &quot;in the short term.&quot; I agree its foolish to not learn the local language if you plan on staying. But if the office language is French that is going to be almost a non-starter for someone who doesn&#x27;t already speak it.<p>It can be intimidating enough changing jobs in your native language. I know Sweden and Berlin use English as the lingua-franca of the office. I just don&#x27;t know about the French tech scene.
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prodmercover 8 years ago
Wait a minute... if this is a Schengen visa, what&#x27;s stopping people from just getting it and then going to Germany to work on a startup?<p>Not that it&#x27;s a bad thing (well, it is for France I guess)...
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EliRiversover 8 years ago
&quot;guaranteeing identical family treatment and automatic labor market access&quot;<p>There&#x27;s a winning move. You can bring your spouse and your spouse can work. That&#x27;s a dealmaker, right there.
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VeejayRampayover 8 years ago
Great move by the French government. There are many things that could be improved vis à vis entrepreneurship in France, but at least we&#x27;re giving it a real shot. Good going!
upenover 8 years ago
Is French language proficiency mandatory for this program?
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arjieover 8 years ago
What&#x27;s the general deal with startup visas? Your startup fails, you have to quit the country? Seems like it raises the stakes for very little reason unless the country is otherwise startup-favourable.
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paulprinsover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m a tech founder who is in Paris through a very similar program with Paris &amp; Co, French Tech. If you have questions I&#x27;ll loop back around to answer them based on my experience.<p>Note: I didn&#x27;t come with the French Tech Ticket (which was a different program that was more structured). I have an existing software company which I am expanding to France &amp; Europe.
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spyspyover 8 years ago
Does anyone know if there similar opportunities for other European countries?
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jpatteover 8 years ago
Something important to keep in mind for founders and investors I haven&#x27;t seen mentioned yet: in France, capital gains are taxed at 33%. And there is an additional tax for wealthy people (ISF, impôt sur la fortune) to pay each year.<p>If you want to be a millionaire in France, get ready to pay hundreds of thousands of euros in taxes.
emmanuel_1234over 8 years ago
Regardless of what you take home at the end, do not move to France for the salary&#x2F;wealth. Move to France for the way of life and the overall social and personal security. Some people prefers not being in a perpetual rat race and having more time to enjoy life, by being with your family everyday (not just on week-ends!), doing sport with friends or knowing that you won&#x27;t go bankrupt&#x2F;uninsured because of some stupid accident like growing old.<p>If you&#x27;re really into the rat race, awesome, keep doing it, but yeah, you probably should not move to France.<p>I&#x27;m personally expatriated because my current mood is settled for the rat race. As I&#x27;m growing older, I have the feeling I&#x27;ll regret it if I don&#x27;t slow down and I&#x27;m very much considering moving back to Europe&#x2F;France.
ajeet_dhaliwalover 8 years ago
Good to see things like this. Even though I would not participate in this particular scheme because I cannot speak French and have no interest in living in France it&#x27;s still great to see this sort of thing happening if only for freedom of movement for hard working talented people.
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biztosover 8 years ago
If you want to move to Europe and work for a &quot;leading startup&quot; or a big tech company -- anything established that pays market rates for senior talent -- then you should also ask your favorite immigration lawyer about Germany&#x27;s Permanent Residency for Highly Talented professionals, aka &quot;Paragraph 19.&quot;<p>This gets you <i>permanent</i> residence, the same thing as a US Green Card. The minimum qualifications IIRC are an advanced degree in something tech&#x2F;science-y, and a &quot;high&quot; salary in the legitimate job waiting for you anywhere in Germany (meaning you have to get the job first). For scientists the salary limit is lower than for engineers.<p>But of course the food is much better in France.
robocatover 8 years ago
I had heard that all the top companies in France were old companies - a club that effectively bans unicorns.<p>I know that France has some incredible engineering talent (egg France is the main world producer for many chemicals).
archagonover 8 years ago
Any avenues for self-employed&#x2F;single-person-company folks? I know Netherlands has DAFT but I&#x27;m interested if this opens any similar options in France.<p>I have dreams of living and coding by the Mediterranean Sea. :)
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finidover 8 years ago
I think Holland has a similar program.
mangecoeurover 8 years ago
I have really high hopes that starups&#x2F;high tech companies will also flourish outside of Paris. France has some really great medium sized cities - compact, livable, full of character and with much lower costs. I&#x27;m hoping that some of them will develop the core of a startup scene that will draw in more people and generally make them exciting. Toulouse already has this to an extent with Airbus being there, generally very active in aerospace and robotics.
geff82over 8 years ago
Paris is great, grew up there. You just have to be comfortable with the fact that more than half of your money get taken by the government for taxes and social security.
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hivenover 8 years ago
I&#x27;ve heard France is a poor location for startups due to their existing regulations, incentives etc. It sounds like they should fix that first.
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partisanover 8 years ago
So no children? It only mentions the spouse.
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mavelikaraover 8 years ago
&gt; Validity: Four years, on a renewable basis.<p>I quickly skimmed the page, but could not find information on a basic question. Does this visa allow an engineer to immigrate to France as a permanent resident&#x2F;citizen in the long run? If so, what is the time horizon one is looking at?
giisover 8 years ago
Anyone tried to subscribe for the updates? Looks like confirmation email sent only in French?
EternalDataover 8 years ago
With most developed nations looking to focus on tech and an inverting age curve threatening pension systems, I wonder how long it&#x27;ll take for everything to shift from rampant nationalism to more open borders (at least economic borders).
tn13over 8 years ago
How favorable are France&#x27;s labor laws ? Is it possible to have at will employment?
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nathan_f77over 8 years ago
This is great! The only problem is that I would have to move to France and meet a lot of French people.<p>But seriously, I hope this will encourage many more countries to offer this type of visa.
brilliantcodeover 8 years ago
I really don&#x27;t see the point unless there are grants and labor based tax credits. Canada has the right model but it&#x27;s still tough for small businesses to secure grant.
hamilyon2over 8 years ago
Thank you, hacker news. That might be a chance I waited for.
Jerry2over 8 years ago
I went to Paris in January of 2016 for a conference. Spent 3 days there, got spat on twice and yelled at. Would not go back even if I was paid to do nothing.
leojgover 8 years ago
Anybody know how possible is to get a visa in france or another european country without a degree and 5 years of experience as a software developer?
xarienover 8 years ago
Why put this out prior to French elections?
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dannylandauover 8 years ago
Is there a list of the top French start-ups? I&#x27;m assuming the Withings would be one near the top.
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bsaulover 8 years ago
Warning : Highly sensitive subject<p>Everyone who has ever done recruiting in a french IT company noticed that 80 to 90% of the resumes you receive come from North African countries (old colonies, mainly Algeria and Tunisia), that try to get a job in order to get a Visa. Most of them are unqualified, but they just &quot;go for it&quot;.<p>Now, is this initiative going to lead to most of them pretending to want to start a company ? And how is the program going to filter qualified individuals to opportunists ?
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reaktivoover 8 years ago
`Cette page est indisponible.` When trying to subscribe to the newsletter ):
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hartatorover 8 years ago
Don&#x27;t go there. The limit of freedom of speech is real and can block you. Even when you run a startup that has nothing to do with local politics or anything controversial. Plus, we are still in &quot;state of emergency&quot;, that gives the state more rights than the patriot act. Go to the US, Canada or New Zealand.
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unknown_apostleover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m warning everyone: don&#x27;t come to France (or Belgium). The worst thing that could happen to you, is that your startup actually becomes hugely successful. You will get ripped off left and right by an pugnacious socialist state, supported by a spoiled population that still hasn&#x27;t fully digested just how irrelevant they have made themselves in the world.
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