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Why we should all have a basic income

266 pointsby nmatover 8 years ago

55 comments

dzinkover 8 years ago
During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of meaningless existence, addiction, etc. Employment's bigger role is not just to provide income, but to keep people's minds busy and balance dopamine and add more meaning in their life. We have to provide solutions for all of the pieces of the puzzle if we want rapid automation.
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jonduboisover 8 years ago
If I had basic income, I would go back to study, get a PhD in Computer Science Majoring in AI&#x2F;Machine learning and then I would try to do something meaningful with it. I am tired of doing pseudo-intellectual software &#x27;engineering&#x27; tasks - I would like to use my intellect to tackle difficult problems instead of trivial problems like building UI components and managing databases. Unfortunately, I can&#x27;t afford to go to back to uni right now.<p>I think that there are a lot of people in my position who are desperate for basic income. From a societal point of view, innovation would move quicker if people had more time to invest in themselves.<p>Unfortunately for me, right now, I just have two options if I want to buy myself some time to study:<p>- Hope that one of the startups I work&#x2F;worked for gets a big exit and that I can cash in and fund my studies.<p>- Wait for retirement age before going back to uni (and hope that my brain still works OK at that age).
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vectorpushover 8 years ago
Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven&#x27;t seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up of the masses that could benefit from it, to say nothing of the powerful that will leverage the full extent of their influence to prevent their gains from being redistributed.
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nickthemagicmanover 8 years ago
Capitalism is going away, no matter what, once we have massive unemployment due to automation. You think people are just going to accept starvation? Shit will get real, real fast. And most people aren&#x27;t as articulate or reasonable as the people on this site. There will be massive violence. A better way to look at UBI is that it&#x27;s not about giving poor people money. Its about keeping the fabric of society together and preventing revolutions.
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dangover 8 years ago
We changed the URL from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;world-economic-forum&#x2F;why-we-should-all-have-a-basic-income-7177d5b339ec" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;world-economic-forum&#x2F;why-we-should-all-ha...</a>, which points to this.<p>Although basic income is obviously a well-worn topic, this article seems a bit more substantive than average. So we&#x27;ll try downweighting this thread less than we usually do for well-worn topics.
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jarymover 8 years ago
Funny how all the proponents of a Universal &#x27;Basic&#x27; Income aren&#x27;t proposing instead to make every &#x27;Basic&#x27; item &#x27;Free&#x27;.<p>After all, if you believe their rhetoric, giving someone $500&#x2F;mo should be the same as giving them free bread, eggs, milk, some clothes and some movie tickets.<p>I wonder why... Maybe, the reality is that over time our &#x27;Basic&#x27; needs increase. In certain parts of the world shoes are still considered a luxury whereas in others, Nikes and Adidas are considered &#x27;basic&#x27;. 50 years ago car ownership was a luxury even in most &#x27;developed&#x27; nations, as were televisions. Now they&#x27;re considered &#x27;Basic&#x27;.<p>The reality is, the people touting UBI as a way forward suffer from having a thoroughly static and isolated view of the world. They fail to see that value creation is what&#x27;s important, and drives society to further itself. As value creation goes up, the definition of &#x27;basic&#x27; increases with it. I&#x27;m not for a minute advocating that the current system is anywhere near perfect - the wealthiest in our population are questionable value creators while at the same time there are value creators scraping by in the world so the way we reward people needs a rethink.<p>I don&#x27;t profess to know how to solve the poverty crisis and I very much want it to be solved as a citizen of the world. What I do know is that the only way to do it will involve reforming education so that future generations are inspired to advance humankind and create value in the process.
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Tepixover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m wondering what effect good virtual reality with a Metaverse as described in Snowcrash and Ready Player One will have on society. There is a potential that a large percentage of people will be happy with their virtual life even if they are poor in real life (as soon as the virtual reality is good enough to spend pretty much all of your time there).
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shahbabyover 8 years ago
“How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation.” ― Niccolò Machiavelli 1469 - 1527<p>Even if UBI was proven to be a net gain to society, implementation is highly unlikely.<p>This is less about technology&#x2F;economics and more about human nature, which has not changed much over the last 500 years.
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2noameover 8 years ago
As the author of this article, I suggest reading this one next if your concern is inflation:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;basic-income&#x2F;wouldnt-unconditional-basic-income-just-cause-massive-inflation-fe71d69f15e7" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;basic-income&#x2F;wouldnt-unconditional-basic-...</a><p>If you have another question check here:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scottsantens.com&#x2F;basic-income-faq" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scottsantens.com&#x2F;basic-income-faq</a>
TaylorAlexanderover 8 years ago
I think a basic income is a dangerous and bad idea.<p>If we expect the wealthy class to give their money to the masses to fund their survival, the masses would become functionally dependent on that transfer continuing. At which point the wealthy class would have incredible power over the masses.<p>Asking for a basic income is like asking to go to prison for the free food. It is not a good idea to become dependent on others with such different interests.<p>Instead, I advocate the development of open source automation solutions that provide everything necessary for human survival. Open source machines can be manufactured by any corporation and purchased by groups who would then own the means of their own survival.<p>A basic income becomes a source of leverage for moneyed interests to get their way. But if we all own the machines that support our survival, we can choose for ourselves when we work and when we study to better ourselves.<p>I&#x27;ve written about this recently, here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tlalexander.com&#x2F;machine&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tlalexander.com&#x2F;machine&#x2F;</a>
ameliusover 8 years ago
It would certainly be nice if startups were ramen-profitable by default :)
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funkyyover 8 years ago
Automation will not reduce overall jobs same way industrialization did not do that. Automation will create more jobs in services instead. Basic income is crazy socialist dream that was tested in communism already and it failed.
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Mzover 8 years ago
When I was 3 years old, my dad bought a brand new house in a brand new suburb. It was 3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths, etc. For its era, it was a very solidly middle class or upper middle class house and he had 3&#x2F;4 of the price of the house in the bank. The house cost $16k. He had $12k in the bank. It was a LOT of money when I was 3 years old. It is not a lot of money today.<p>A $1000&#x2F;month sounds like a lot now. But the minute you issue UBI, it will spur inflation and the value of that $1000 will immediately be less than it is now. This is a problem faced by every single welfare or aid program the world over: It takes no time for whatever figures you came up with to be out of date and for your program to not be accomplishing its intended goals.<p>I have written about this before (for example: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;09&#x2F;it-was-obsolete-before-we-opened.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;09&#x2F;it-was-obsol...</a>) and I expect to write about this more. The UBI is a bad solution to the problem. We have faced this problem before in the form of the Industrial Revolution and we invented the 40 hour work week. It helped distribute work more fairly. We need similar solutions today. Turning most people into sheeple and charity cases merely because they are not rich is a terrible, terrible idea.
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heycomeoncomeonover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m adding to the the discussion cause we have very smart people here with very good assessments on what the implications are for basic income. I had to chime in to clear some of the speculation on the arguments brought forward. I&#x27;m not for or against basic income at the moment but I want to make sure we are all on the same page on what inflation is and the basics of economics.<p>Inflation is simply the influx of money that causes the &quot;value&quot; of ALL goods&#x2F;services to increase. This is due to the increase of the money supply which decreases the value of the currency. I emphasize that it is the value of ALL goods&#x2F;services not just one or a large number of sectors. When we see prices rise up in goods and services in one area it isn&#x27;t inflation because it is in one area of the economy.<p>Another misunderstood axiom of economics is that a market is based on finite resources. If goods in one area of the market increase then somewhere else across the economy the value of goods and services decrease. Now the misinterpretation of inflation and price hikes happen due to one variable, time. The time it takes for price hikes in one area to affect another is what gives the perception of inflation. But when the value of groceries significantly increases then I assure you people are going to eat out less. It just takes time for the sectors to affect on one another.
err4ntover 8 years ago
This article seems really out of touch, and anybody mentioning the &#x27;UBI&#x27; experiment in Manitoba Canada as a success or in a positive light I can hardly trust about the experiments I haven&#x27;t read about. When we Canadians did an experiment it failed!
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unstatusthequoover 8 years ago
As a payor of six digits of taxes, this sounds expensive and likely to be taken advantage of by the lazy.<p>When I grew up my basic income was something called &quot;wages,&quot; for which I worked to earn.<p>Someone has to fund shit like this. Handouts do not promote self help, but the opposite: dependence on the government. Is that something to be proud about?
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roldieover 8 years ago
EconTalk has a recent episode on basic income [0]. The guest is against basic income but the debate is interesting.<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.econtalk.org&#x2F;archives&#x2F;2017&#x2F;01&#x2F;michael_munger_3.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.econtalk.org&#x2F;archives&#x2F;2017&#x2F;01&#x2F;michael_munger_3.ht...</a>
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omiluover 8 years ago
Here is the same author in 2014 attempting to explain how basic income won&#x27;t lead to massive inflation:<p><i><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;basic-income&#x2F;wouldnt-unconditional-basic-income-just-cause-massive-inflation-fe71d69f15e7#.ajika83kp*" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;basic-income&#x2F;wouldnt-unconditional-basic-...</a><p>&gt;&gt;&gt;</i>It would not be new money, just money shifted from one location to another. This means that the value of each dollar has not changed. The dollar itself has only changed hands.*<p>There is no sure fire way to <i>reduce</i> the value of a dollar then to redistribute it to people that didn&#x27;t work for it. The fact that you have to work for the dollar is the thing that gives the dollar value.
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gdixover 8 years ago
The first graphic is geniusly deceptive:<p>&quot;See, we take a little bit from everyone, shuffle it around a bit and return it back to everyone. Hooray!&quot;<p>When it reality, the actual result is the red section loses dots which just go blue green and yellow groups.
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jonduboisover 8 years ago
I&#x27;m a big fan of Thomas Piketty&#x27;s idea of a progressive global tax on wealth.<p>I think that the root cause of a lot of the financial stress that many people are feeling right now is the result of having too many people leeching off of passive income from their investments&#x2F;wealth (derived from work they did 30 years ago) and not actually contributing anything new to society.<p>These wealthy people have become parasites.<p>Right now, if I build an office building and I rent it out to people; assuming that I manage to stay afloat during the first few years, the passive income that I will later generate from that investment will probably keep coming in for the rest of my life... Even worse than that; when I die, my children would be able to keep getting the free passive income; they could just sit there and consume stuff (make others work for them) without working themselves; without contributing anything new to society.<p>There is a point when you have to stop paying these passive earners. We&#x27;re already doing it when it comes to patents&#x2F;copyrights (In many countries, copyrights expire after 70 years or so... Patents generally expire sooner than that) - We need to either extend this notion of &#x27;expiry&#x27; to ALL property rights OR at the very least tax that wealth. Why should regular property be treated any differently than intellectual property?<p>Right now, what we have is crony capitalism. If we wanted to have proper capitalism; companies like Ford, GM, Toyota... would all have to pay royalties to the descendants of the people who invented the wheel and also to all the descendants of the people who discovered iron ore, etc... That would be fair - Actually, doing this would probably have the same effect as passive income since probably every human has at least one person in their ancestry who made a major contribution to mankind (why don&#x27;t they get royalties for that?).<p>When you put it into context, the rules of our current flavor of capitalism just seem ridiculously arbitrary.<p>I think that a progressive global tax on wealth combined with basic income would be a perfect way to average out the unfairness of the system without damaging the capitalist incentive structure.
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tunesmithover 8 years ago
I have such trouble with basic income discussions because it is such an ill-defined term it is basically meaningless. Like here in the US, UBI <i>with</i> social-security&#x2F;medicare is a massively different thing than UBI <i>instead of</i> social-security&#x2F;medicare. So massively different that it&#x27;s just two completely different subjects, arguments, things.<p>They should just be named differently so we know what we&#x27;re talking about - otherwise you have people agreeing they love it when the actually massively disagree, or other people saying they hate it on grounds other than what was suggested.
king07828over 8 years ago
Country A has pure UBI. Country B has &quot;almost UBI&quot; where, in order to receive payments, the person must have documented proof of 3 hours per week of at least one of: volunteer work, education as a student, or teaching a class. In this scenario, I would expect country B&#x27;s economy to dominate country A&#x27;s economy because in order to get your check you have to work with other people (volunteer), make yourself better (student), or make others better (teach).
dietscheover 8 years ago
bad idea. totally unworkable. this will create a class of dependent poor people. It will also create a working class who slaves away to provide for those who refuse to work.
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thescribeover 8 years ago
It has been 0 days since hacker news argued about basic income without any new data.
lend000over 8 years ago
I&#x27;m glad basic income is getting a lot of discussion, but it&#x27;s important to realize we are still pretty early in the process of automation taking over more jobs than people can innovate. Technology has been making entire industries&#x2F;classes of workers obsolete for centuries, and the economy has always adjusted.<p>In this next push, it <i>looks</i> like it will be different because AI&#x2F;machine labor is so &#x27;general,&#x27; but in reality, the pressure it will first exert on physical labor sectors will create more opportunity for a human economy based on social value and services (i.e. waiters in nice restaurants, artists, musicians, writers, inventors, chiropractors, etc.), as well as those requiring a combination of intelligence&#x2F;education&#x2F;creativity, like most of HN. There will likely be an increased prevalence of security guards, managers, and techs overseeing machines, and it will force people to take on skills (which they are fully capable of) that do not involve pure manual labor&#x2F;doing what they&#x27;re told. And of course, it&#x27;s a longer time frame between &#x27;pretty general&#x27; physical automation and &#x27;sentient super-intelligence&#x27; replacing scientists, engineers, business leaders, and of course, the politicians who will never let themselves be replaced.<p>But when we do start to have the impetus for a basic income, say ten years from now, let&#x27;s make sure it starts off basic, because there will always be jobs of some sort that you can get to supplement your income, and they will probably be increasingly social in value. Not enough to rent out a nice one bedroom apartment in Manhattan, but enough to get by if you&#x27;re willing to go without nice amenities, get roommates and not live in an expensive downtown area. Until virtually every job can be automated and we are all servants to a mechanical society, there needs to be incentive&#x2F;reward to working.
jakeoghover 8 years ago
Merely a way to control people. It&#x27;s dishonest to pretend that it&#x27;s for everyone, the first thing that will happen if you wrong the power structure is it will withdraw funding.<p>Not that I am particularly worried, this will never happen in the United States. China on the other hand, I bet they would love to tie this to their human scoring system.
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umberwayover 8 years ago
It seems to me that basic income could make me either (1) fall victim to depression, addiction, or some other mental disorder, or (2) find a <i>hard problem</i> to work on which keeps me occupied and satisfied for a lifetime.
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RichardHeartover 8 years ago
I wonder what effect an enacted basic income in the USA would have on immigration. UBI is going to be life or death in a vastly automated world, so we mind as well figure out how to solve the side issues of implementation.
briantakitaover 8 years ago
&gt; The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven that called for overloading the U.S. public welfare system in order to precipitate a crisis that would lead to a replacement of the welfare system with a national system of &quot;a guaranteed annual income and thus an end to poverty&quot;.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wikiwand.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wikiwand.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy</a>
witty_usernameover 8 years ago
UBI is inefficient--taxing someone and then giving them money. NIT (negative income tax) makes more sense and can actually have the same effect as UBI depending on the slabs.
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Koshkinover 8 years ago
You never know, UBI may turn out to be a good thing: it may result in creating a healthy shortage of the workforce, which may lead to a more efficient economy overall.
lstroudover 8 years ago
Politically, you would have to need guarantees against double dipping (constitutional amendment outlawing all other forms of distribution - welfare, food stamps). That&#x27;s the problem with all the ideas like this...maybe they would be better, but you have to get from here to there. The transitions are almost always untenable and more complex than imagined (see healthcare)<p>Would be better to find something incremental.
cocoa19over 8 years ago
One thing I haven&#x27;t seen discussed. Would we need some sort of population control with UBI? Even if robots produce all basic necessities for human life, the earth cannot sustain unrestricted population growth, which is a possibility.<p>I don&#x27;t know it&#x27;s true, but I&#x27;ve heard of stories in Brazil where women in certain towns have many kids so they can collect additional welfare benefits for each kid.
cpursleyover 8 years ago
I have a serious question for folks who support UBI: what is stopping you from getting started now and helping your neighbors?<p>Why not just cut out the middle-man (government bureaucracy) and provide someone with a monthly income from your own pocket?<p>This could be accomplished by individuals with high income (like many here), or by voluntarily pooling your money together.
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JohnLeTigreover 8 years ago
It&#x27;s a cool idea but the problem is that people that sell goods will raise their prices knowing that everyone has more disposable income.<p>So the cost of life will raise and the people will have the same relative expenses (practically as poor) but without any fallback system this time around.<p>So unless UBI is coupled with strict pricing regulations, it&#x27;s a scam.
loki49152over 8 years ago
How do the people who support this scheme plan to get around Say&#x27;s Law? All of the wealth that this &quot;income&quot; can demand still has to be produced by someone. Is this just going to be open theft of wealth with printed money or open theft of wealth to be distributed as money somehow?
mrmrcolemanover 8 years ago
Lots of conversation here but we already know how to deal with this; let&#x27;s run a test and see what happens. Just like they are doing in Utrecht in the Netherlands.<p>If it looks good we can roll it out a bit more.
programmarchyover 8 years ago
UBI is attempting to cloak itself in free market rhetoric, but it&#x27;s bullshit.<p>Yes it may &quot;incentivize&quot; some individuals to work, but only by disincentivizing others. It takes money from top wealth producers, discouraging their labor, and gives it to people who aren&#x27;t producing as much wealth, effectively subsidizing unproductive work. This will make everyone poorer in the long run.<p>The struggling artist meme is an appeal to emotion. The struggling artists and entrepreneurs are struggling for a reason -- the market does not want their goods or services! They should fail as quickly as possible, not continue to drag on producing things people don&#x27;t want.<p>I&#x27;ll concede that the welfare state has perverse incentives which trap people in poverty, but there are better ways to address it other than doubling down on the mother of all wealth redistribution schemes.
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omiluover 8 years ago
&gt;&gt;&gt;Basic income guarantees you a monthly starting salary above the poverty line for the rest of your life<p>If the poverty line stayed constant, basic income is a no-brainer. But basic income makes the cost of goods rise. Demand for goods increases, but supply diminishes. Nobody will do the crap jobs without higher pay, raising the price of everything. Basic income is impossible.
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igallinaover 8 years ago
income is the result of work if you get paid without work someone else is working for that since machines aren&#x27;t there yet... I don&#x27;t agree.
tomcamover 8 years ago
Who pays for it?
mempkoover 8 years ago
I think maybe money, as a technology has reached its limitation. UBI is a patch to a broken system.
Mendenhallover 8 years ago
Because what could possibly go wrong with making more people dependent on the government?
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prodmercover 8 years ago
If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for &quot;basic needs&quot;, the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you&#x27;ll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food.<p>So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life.<p>It&#x27;s sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance.<p>Giving money&#x2F;help selectively to those who need it right now (and can prove it, i.e. no job but looking for one) is still better than UBI.<p>Prove me wrong.
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droithommeover 8 years ago
Who is &quot;we&quot;? Who is &quot;all&quot;? Does this include migrants and undocumented aliens who do the dangerous jobs for low pay with no labor protections or civil rights? Or would they be excluded from the basic income? If they are excluded, and have no rights, but continue to perform the dirty jobs while the rest of &quot;us&quot; relax and benefit from their labor, how is that different from the system of chattel plantation slavery?
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dingo_batover 8 years ago
According to very quick Web searches, $1000 is about 80% of the median personal income in the usa. I calculated the same rate for India and it comes to ₹2751 per month based on a median income of $616 per annum.<p>If I were to get ₹2751 extra every month, it wouldn&#x27;t make a difference for me at all. In fact, my monthly expenses are 10x this amount and I&#x27;m only spending less than 50% of my income.<p>So this measure surely isn&#x27;t meant to have any effect on people like me. I would imagine it&#x27;s a similar calculation for most people on this website. For this reason alone, we are very badly positioned to react in an emotional manner. The only decisions that should be taken should be taken on the basis of trials and hard statistics. Otherwise the &quot;free money for slackers&quot; sentiment is too strong when it may not be the truth.
kareldonkover 8 years ago
A basic income wont solve any problems in a sustainable way as long as governments exist: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.kareldonk.com&#x2F;governments-and-basic-income-why-they-dont-go-together&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.kareldonk.com&#x2F;governments-and-basic-income-why-...</a>
knownover 8 years ago
UBI should provide impetus to intrinsic motivation <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;researchnews.osu.edu&#x2F;archive&#x2F;inmotiv.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;researchnews.osu.edu&#x2F;archive&#x2F;inmotiv.htm</a>
knownover 8 years ago
There is only 1 apple for 5 persons.<p>Person 0 has 0 dollars;<p>Person 1 has 1 dollars;<p>Person 2 has 2 dollars;<p>Person 3 has 3 dollars;<p>Person 4 has 4 dollars;<p>What is the price of apple?
kapauldoover 8 years ago
A better idea is making minimum wage match the poverty line. We already habe UBI for seniors and tbe disabled, and it works great.
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knownover 8 years ago
I&#x27;d suggest unconditional free universal health care;
fbreducover 8 years ago
the biggest problem i see is now i want to raise my prices to get more of that UBI pie
spork12over 8 years ago
It would work for a certain period of time until inflation catches up.<p>You could keep raising the basic income to keep pace, but it would require raising it more every time and sooner than the last time (exponential). Inflation can be quite damaging because not everything inflates at the same rate. For example salaries are pretty slow to inflate compared to the prices for things like gas or food. This is why a mason could afford to buy a car outright on their salary in the 1950s but almost everyone needs an auto loan to buy a car today.<p>You could try to stop inflation using price controls but this almost always leads to supply shortages. For an example look at rent ceilings in NYC, or the way grocery stores functioned in eastern bloc socialist countries. They had plenty of cash and prices were very cheap but there was nothing on the shelves to buy.<p>tl;dr Basic income would just create a new $0 mark.
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jliptzinover 8 years ago
This will never happen in the US. You will have to move out of the country to a different country that institutes a UBI if you are looking for something like this (which I think is a good idea)
valuearbover 8 years ago
This would be awesome. i&#x27;d quit working and rely on others to produce goods and services for me. If I needed extra income I&#x27;d just play poker.