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Why taxing robots is not a good idea

57 pointsby tomaskazemekasabout 8 years ago

15 comments

tvanantwerpabout 8 years ago
From a policy standpoint, it would be a nightmare to define automation to be taxed. What counts as automation? Should I be taxed when I say "OK Google, remind me to blah blah blah", which theoretically negates the need for me to hire a human assistant to whom I would dictate? Should I be taxed for using a spam filter to sort through my emails and discard the junk for me? Where, precisely, would policymakers be able to draw a clear line between "tax this automation" and "don't tax this automation"?
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conanbattabout 8 years ago
I do wonder what a robot tax would look like: is gmail a robot? Is Alexa a Robot? Is Tesla a robot?<p>I think this stems from the basic idea that we always find it compelling to tax someone else, and what better to tax that which cannot defend itself. But then you realize a robot is like a hammer, and i dont think the hammer cares about filing to the IRS.
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yessqlabout 8 years ago
Bill Gates really amazes me with his lack of vision. He thinks renewables are not a solution to sustainable energy and taxing robots makes sense.<p>Bill,automating physical labor is not the issue, it&#x27;s automating driving and white collar jobs that&#x27;s really going to disrupt society. It should be a tax on the computer, not the robot, if you think taxing progress is a smart idea.
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crdoconnorabout 8 years ago
Automation has been putting people out of jobs since 95% of the population were farmers. The new theory isn&#x27;t &quot;will automation put people out of a job?&quot;. Of course it will. It always has.<p>The weird new theory put forward by a cadre of politicians, billionaires and economists is that this is somehow a <i>new</i> thing (sometimes referred to as &quot;the luddite fallacy&quot;), and somehow a process that it is largely responsible for all of the jobs that were deliberately offshored and destroyed via austerity.<p>Of course, I couldn&#x27;t possibly comment on why this cadre would want to scapegoat the inevitable forward march of technology and baby boomers for the problems caused by their corrupt backroom trade deals and lobbying.<p>You can tell if somebody is a REAL believer in the power of robots to eliminate the need for human labor:<p>They won&#x27;t object to increasing wages. They won&#x27;t object to increasing government spending. They won&#x27;t object to any policy decision that is &quot;inflationary&quot;. Because, if robots really <i>were</i> going to soon do, say, 60% of jobs the countervailing deflationary pressures would be staggering.
mcguireabout 8 years ago
&quot;<i>The thorniest problem for Mr Gates’s proposal, however, is that, for the moment at least, automation is occurring not too rapidly but too slowly. The displacement of workers by machines ought to register as an increase in the rate of productivity growth—and a faster-growing economy. But since a burst of rapid productivity growth in the late 1990s and early 2000s, America’s economy has persistently disappointed on these measures.</i>&quot;<p>Arguments from productivity measurements, especially the lack thereof, should be heavily suspect. I can remember economists, like <i>The Economist,</i> questioning the use of information technology as late as the late &#x27;90s, since there weren&#x27;t any productivity gains to be seen.<p>On the face of it, this isn&#x27;t an unreasonable suggestion, since it might slow and smooth the transition. The alternatives could be add ugly as the alternatives to the industrial revolution.<p>On the other hand, it would be hard to implement and no one is going to adapt before they absolutely have to.
bediger4000about 8 years ago
Pretty typical pro-corporation-excluding-all-else &quot;The Economist&quot; stuff - all from the point of view of how to maximize corporate welfare and profits, ignores externalities forced on governments and workers, and also ignores possibilities like not subsidizing robots by disallowing capital amortization.
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tyingqabout 8 years ago
Bill Gates&#x27; interview where he talks about this, for context: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;911968&#x2F;bill-gates-the-robot-that-takes-your-job-should-pay-taxes&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;911968&#x2F;bill-gates-the-robot-that-takes-your-j...</a>
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skywhopperabout 8 years ago
Some better ideas: raising the minimum wage, increasing tax rates on corporations and high-income individuals, dividends, estates, and capital gains, and using that additional revenue to improve public education on all levels, and reduce the cost of a college degree to a level that everyone can afford without going into debt.<p>The higher taxes and minimum wages would encourage companies to invest in automation, which would increase productivity, increasing corporate profits _and_ government revenue. There&#x27;d be a huge jump in demand for jobs installing, maintaining, designing, programming, and building automation technology, and a general increase in demand across the board as more people have more income because of higher minimum wages, which allow them to spend more money, which in turn grows the economy.<p>The additional investments in education availability would be timely since with higher demand for skilled labor and lower cost of tuition, people would take more classes and become more skilled and get higher paying jobs. It&#x27;s a virtuous cycle.<p>Would inflation come of this? Probably some, but after a decade of sub-2% inflation, we actually _need_ more inflation. Inflation raises prices, but it also raises salaries. When huge swaths of the middle class are buried in mortgage, student loan, and credit-card debt, inflation makes those debts _smaller_, which means those people have more money to spend, which grows the economy, creates jobs, and raises wages.<p>It can become a virtuous cycle, if only we were brave enough to kick it off.
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_nalplyabout 8 years ago
Tax money flows from organisations to people. The crucial idea: People are behind organisations.<p>This way owners of companies getting rich have to pay taxes for their robots. If they try to evade, government just has to wait for them getting the proceeds sooner or later.<p>A loophole is money leaving the country. Tax it as if it has been paid to a person.
popraabout 8 years ago
I believe this is the paper about the declining labor and capital shares mentioned in the article <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;home.uchicago.edu&#x2F;~barkai&#x2F;doc&#x2F;BarkaiDecliningLaborCapital.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;home.uchicago.edu&#x2F;~barkai&#x2F;doc&#x2F;BarkaiDecliningLaborCap...</a>.
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6d6b73about 8 years ago
Before Bill agrees to pay back taxes on all of copies of Windows, MS Office and other robots that his company created, I don&#x27;t think he has a right to advocate taxing robots. He became the richest man alive simply because he created company that helped people automate their jobs, and improve productivity.<p>Does he want to tax my scripts created to help me automate my servers? No, why not? Because they are just scripts? What if I put them on something like Raspberry Pi and attach wheels to it? Is it now taxable?<p>For fucks sake, how smart people can have such dumb ideas is beyond me.
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EGregabout 8 years ago
<i>Particular workers may suffer by being displaced by robots, but workers as a whole might be better off because prices fall.</i><p>May... might... this is the argument?<p>Let&#x27;s be clear: robots disrupt the supply side and help the demand side. Full stop. Let&#x27;s not conflate the two in our arguments.<p>Yes, lower prices help the consumer. They also squeeze producers. See Amazon wage slaves -&gt; kiva robots, or Apple FOXCONN factories -&gt; robots, or Uber drivers -&gt; self driving cars, etc etc etc.<p>When the producer is a human we have added constraints, whose cost goes up every decade and century: we want the human to...<p>+ Not starve... and now have a choice in good nutritious food from all over the world<p>+ Have access to water ... which is clean, potable and is pumped to their faucet automatically<p>+ Have healthcare ... that utilizes all the advancements of modern medicine to reduce child mortality etc.<p>+ Have primary education ... with multimedia on iPads instead of a huge backpaack of heavy books<p>+ Not be homeless ... while having their own apartment with enough living space to be comfortable<p>+ Utilities ... inclding broadband internet and a basic cellphone plan.<p>etc etc.<p>These demands are larger than, say, in medieval times, when serfs worked the land. We also have quite more wealth as a society thanks to advances in automation and information, and just building upon previous results.<p>Thus we can afford to get the basics taken care of unconditionally for all members of society.<p>It doesn&#x27;t have tk be Unconditional Basic Income. A better method is Single Payer Systems, which we already have in many countries. Single payerfor education, public schools, healthcare, etc.<p>NOTE: this is not the same as government provided housing, education, etc. There shohld be vouchers that let people choose the provider. And it would only cover the basic service. Providers would compete to offer that basic service to the huge pool of buyers - WHO DO NOT COMPETE WHEN IT COMES TO THE BASIC SERVICE LEVEL. This is the key. Consumers compete on how much they pay, that&#x27;s it. The single payer sets the price for the basic level. Prices therefore go down. (See eg Medicare or single payer systems around the world.)<p>For example a &quot;Food Stamps for All&quot; program where the first $100 a week is loaded onto SNAP cards for everyone, including millionaires. After that they are free to do whatever they want. We might even require (LOCAL!!) ID to use the card for food, to prevent ID theft. To starve, a poor person would have to explicitly sell their last food aftr buying it. Same with &quot;Medicare for all&quot; and &quot;Housing for all&quot;.<p>This can be done on a local level. Everyone in NYC or SF gets taxed and gets $1000 a month in housing vouchers which landlords would be free to accept, or not. Most would, just like most doctors choose to accept insurance.<p>Where will that money come from? That&#x27;s a silly question. People ALREADY have to pay for food if they live in a city. This simply makes the whole thing cheaper by squeezing the producers further. The producers may introduce robots, pay less to CEOs, or whatever, in order to get access to all that volume. But the one thing they won&#x27;t be able to do is raise prices because some buyer might defect and pay them (shout out patio11). They can do that for premium services but never the basics. That is a GOOD thing for everyone because everyone needs the basics. Bill Gates said the burger still tastes the same when you are a billionaire.<p>So the end result is cheaper for the consumers, not more expensive. It is just a question of how to get from here to there. Being able to phase it in on a city level and really try it is a good feature of any program.<p>If you&#x27;re a Conservative, consider that you most likely already support this in Primary School Education (vouchers and single payer for all) but for some reason oppose it in Healthcare etc.<p>If you&#x27;re a Libertarian or Anarchist: listen, I&#x27;m a minarchist! I want to get government down to one thing: taxing and running single payer systems for thins we all need. Maybe that includes the army but nowhere near the amount the US has now. What I would like to see is single payer systems for basic levels of every thing people have come to expect.<p>The argument that someone is getting something for nothing is an even sillier argument.<p>We all live in the 21st century people!! Just by being born at a certain time we get things that even kings could only dream of, for nearly all of human history. Many people <i>already have</i> single payer systems.<p>And you are jealous that someone lives in the 21st century has a safety net, so if they don&#x27;t work they don&#x27;t starve?<p>You are jealous someone doesn&#x27;t live as a serf on the land, who doesn&#x27;t eat if he doesn&#x27;t work?<p>You have the same protection! The same equal opportunity. Many of them are jealous of you for having been born in a more wealthy place.<p>Stop the jealousy. Single payer allows equal opportunity for all. It allows us to abolish minimum wage. Let people learn new skills, make contributions to copyleft &#x2F; patentleft, discover new drugs, spend time raising their children well, instead of working a dead end uber driver or macsonalds job which will be automated soon. That&#x27;s the real solution. If you&#x27;re going to do anything, ensure everyone has the minimum first.
exabrialabout 8 years ago
Literally one of the dumbest proposals I&#x27;ve ever heard. &quot;I&#x27;ve got an idea, let&#x27;s tax the people that are producing safer, more consistent, higher quality, less wasteful, more efficient, innovative products!&quot;
dingleberryabout 8 years ago
the gov should tax algorithms instead.<p>think how many librarians (or other occupations) are made obsolete by google.
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vixen99about 8 years ago
A tax on tools, a tax on doing something more efficiently?