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Tech Workers' Values

142 pointsby rloombaabout 8 years ago

40 comments

AndrewKemendoabout 8 years ago
<i>We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they&#x27;d like to see their companies uphold. A tech union isn&#x27;t the perfect metaphor for this, but it&#x27;s not far off.</i><p>If it&#x27;s going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is.<p>I&#x27;ve argued for a while that tech workers need a union, but the chorus on HN and other places is &quot;we&#x27;re too special for a union.&quot; Which is bogus on it&#x27;s face - otherwise SAG for example wouldn&#x27;t exist.<p>If this moves the needle on a union then great, but I&#x27;m wary of the source being a pure power move (which all unions are - rightfully). I think whomever leads this needs to be above reproach in every sense as an advocate for the tiny introverted developer.<p>edit: I should note that the reason SAG worked is because some of the highest profile actors joined in the early days and arranged to collectively bargain for the rest of the group. It will probably work best if you get the top 50 most high profile developers (Eg. Carmack) to join and then advocate for the small guy. Sadly, in reality, a union is only as good as it&#x27;s most high profile members.
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rhizomeabout 8 years ago
Who is the &quot;we&quot; he&#x27;s speaking to here? I know that Twitter and HN, i.e. the generic internet, are the only places Sam and I typically might cross paths, so who is the community he&#x27;s speaking for? Gavin de Becker and &quot;forced teaming&quot; comes to mind.<p>Is this YC trying to stay on top of the tech activism bubbling in various corners these days? He doesn&#x27;t say, the entire post is expressed as self-evident, which makes me think his (et al) motivation is competitively strategic, and specifically political. Vagueness is construed against the writer, especially when it&#x27;s intentional.<p>If he is indeed speaking to the DSA and ersatz-unionization ideas floating around, why not join forces with people who are already working on this? Fragmentation? Disruption? Narratology?<p><i>We’d also like to discuss how tech companies can heal the divide in our country</i><p>Evergreen take, but you still can&#x27;t solve a people problem with technology.
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alphonsegastonabout 8 years ago
There&#x27;s already a solution for this - worker ownership of companies with corresponding democratic rights.<p>We&#x27;ve just emerged from an era where benevolent tech companies were supposed to stand up for us and reflect our values. Instead, they put on a polite face, said the right words to us, and then did whatever served their interests irrespective of our concerns. Repeating this scenario is foolish and only going to worsen the situation.
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csneekyabout 8 years ago
Tech workers are as disparate and varied as non-tech workers...<p>There is a hierarchy and I think it is unlikely we will see common ground emerge. Survival of the fittest and the best will still win the day. Just like the labor unions of the industrial era, efforts like this are doomed to be spikes of ideology rife with the same contradictions of those it proposes to keep in check.<p>Some tech workers run multimillion dollar businesses and some push bits around for them in the wee hours of the morning for much less.<p>Some have PhDs in category theory and write Haskell on a multiple 6 figure salary in finance and some maintain dated ruby on rails systems they didn&#x27;t write for much less.<p>Some roll around on scooters in data centers putting out real fires in environments that need high availability. Others spend their days upgrading old versions of windows in small town school districts.<p>The same divides that existed before the internet will follow us. Nothing new here. Work hard, strive to get to the top, and hang on. Unions are not the answer. Darwin always wins the day.
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yanilkrabout 8 years ago
Tech workers have something so much better than that. Freedom. If you do not like the values of the current company find a new one or start one.<p>Mob rule knows no fairness. When your ideas are vague, people fill them up with their version of fairness. Employees who are just starting out do not know anything about making sacrifices to build something bigger than themselves. If they collectively form a gang and override the will of the founders and investors who made more sacrifices, it drains the spirit of the individual to risk their time and savings to start something new.<p>People are free to organize their efforts but it takes founders and their sacrifices to make things happen. This collective power should embrace ideas of fairness and voluntarism instead of laws and force to get their way.
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zorpnerabout 8 years ago
This is a pretty bizarre and direct ripoff of pinboard&#x27;s Tech Solidarity, except run by The Man and they&#x27;ll &quot;select&quot; who&#x27;s allowed to attend. Classless and tone-deaf would be charitable interpretation.
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lackbeardabout 8 years ago
I can&#x27;t articulate why exactly... but I have a very bad feeling about this.<p>&gt; We also believe tech companies have an opportunity and an obligation to reduce the polarization we&#x27;ve helped create.<p>I&#x27;m pretty sure this kind of thing is just going to make the polarization worse.
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leggomylibroabout 8 years ago
Give us creative freedom and ownership of our IP.<p>When you claim all of our thoughts on and off the clock, you encourage us to avoid creatively-fulfilling ventures, burn out, and leave for greener pastures.
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tptacekabout 8 years ago
It&#x27;s good that Altman recognizes that something needs to be done here. Something does need to happen.<p>However: Altman is a business owner and an executive. I don&#x27;t think he can coordinate the solution. The kernel of the issue here is the disengagement rank-and-file employees have from the public policy implications of their work. Employees don&#x27;t need permission from owners and managers to be accountable for those implications. The widespread, implicit belief among the rank-and-file that they do need permission is the first obstacle that we need to address.<p>Rather than staging meetings and attempting to help shape the outcome, Altman and other executives should encourage their employees to work amongst themselves. Getting directly involved, however, is problematic, and I think owners and executives should probably avoid doing that.
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rfrankabout 8 years ago
From the earlier sama post, What I Heard From Trump Supporters:<p>&gt; Almost everyone I asked was willing to talk to me, but almost none of them wanted me to use their names—even people from very red states were worried about getting “targeted by those people in Silicon Valley if they knew I voted for him”. One person in Silicon Valley even asked me to sign a confidentiality agreement before she would talk to me, as she worried she’d lose her job if people at her company knew she was a strong Trump supporter.<p>..<p>&gt; We also believe tech companies have an opportunity and an obligation to reduce the polarization we&#x27;ve helped create.<p>Are tech employees the correct population to attempt to bridge a political divide? I&#x27;m not convinced that&#x27;s the case.
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maxxxxxabout 8 years ago
&quot;Tech companies are very receptive to their employees&#x27; influence. We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they&#x27;d like to see their companies uphold.&quot;<p>Maybe he should replace &quot;employee&quot; with &quot;investor&quot; and start working on that? In the end it&#x27;s the investors that force companies to make money at any cost.
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callmeedabout 8 years ago
<i>&gt; We believe that tech companies can create a better economic future for all Americans by spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country ...</i><p>From what I can tell, this doesn&#x27;t really line up with the location and remote-friendliness of YC companies. Most seem to be in the Bay Area and few that I can tell allow remote engineers, managers, or execs.<p>Sorry, but being an Instacart delivery person in Dallas isn&#x27;t a high-paying technology job.<p>Prove me wrong with real numbers please.
alexandercrohdeabout 8 years ago
I have no clue what he&#x27;s talking about, and what it sounds like he&#x27;s saying makes me a little angry.<p>- Unions are a force to protect the 99% from the corruption of the 1%. They are not a force to drive a liberal agenda, though by protecting the little guy they may indirectly align.<p>- Increasing competition by getting more people into coding (be them from outside the country or from outside of cities) is the exact opposite of what a union would do. It would drive down wages for the skilled workers that investors are getting rich off of.<p>- Technology making peoples lives worse is the fault of a combination of capitalism and the fact that CEOs and investors are more motivated by adding 0s to their bank account than anything as nebulous as &quot;good.&quot; Why should tech workers risk their jobs to force the hand of the companies they work at?<p>- Is he talking about automation taking jobs? Because the profit from the concentration of wealth again is at the hands of the 1% and .1%. Unless he&#x27;s saying tech workers need to pass the buffet rule, or tech workers need to refuse to work at companies that don&#x27;t give enough equity then I don&#x27;t see how the average tech worker is the solution to the wealth being drawn away from the average citizen (who can&#x27;t afford $500 in an emergency) into an investor&#x27;s portfolio....
TheAdamAndCheabout 8 years ago
The same forces that have killed unions in the US will kill this. As long as labor can be shipped to areas of the world with a lower quality of life, they will do so. Lower level tech positions like tech support have already been shipped overseas, and once countries like India and China develop the infrastructure to take higher level tech jobs, they will go there too.<p>If we want to protect our workers, our labor laws, and our standard of living, we have to stop globalization.
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nthitzabout 8 years ago
Reminder: TechSolidarity, a very similar initiative is open to everyone and is meeting next Wednesday in SF <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;techsolidarity.org&#x2F;events&#x2F;sf_april_5.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;techsolidarity.org&#x2F;events&#x2F;sf_april_5.html</a>
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sweisabout 8 years ago
See also <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;techsolidarity.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;techsolidarity.org&#x2F;</a>
zanzibarwutwutabout 8 years ago
This:<p><pre><code> As members of the community, we&#x27;re interested in ways in which tech companies can use their collective power to protect privacy, rule of law, freedom of expression, and other fundamental American rights </code></pre> And this:<p><pre><code> We also believe tech companies have an opportunity and an obligation to reduce the polarization we&#x27;ve helped create. </code></pre> are not really compatible. People from Red America already aren&#x27;t welcome in tech (I am from Red America). This makes polarization worse by creating yet another filter bubble. Making tech companies into even more explicit vehicles for progressive activism might be a good thing on balance, but it won&#x27;t help with polarization. Pick one.
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jdhopeuniqueabout 8 years ago
One value I&#x27;d like to see enforced is better separation of employees&#x27; work and private life. Examples would include:<p>Not having to support politics I disagree with during or outside of work hours.<p>Not having my photo and about me on the company webpage. No one wants to know the truth that my hobbies are not rock climbing and playing the guitar.<p>Not being forced to go to conferences, hackathons, and other company sponsored events.<p>It would be nice if these values included lobbying for tech workers to not be exempt from overtime pay and reforms of the h1b visa program.
thoraabout 8 years ago
These recent interviews with Alan Kay [1][2] cover this topic from a perspective I find valuable. In addition, there are many other relevant presentations he has made and in which he presents his own perspectives and points to the ideas of others like Douglas Englebart, Neil Postman, Seymor Papert, Marshall McLuhan, Francis Bacon, and Thomas Paine [3]<p>[1] Alan Kay - Inventing the Future Part 1: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=KVUGkuUj28o" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=KVUGkuUj28o</a><p>[2] Alan Kay - Inventing the Future Part 2: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=M6ZHxUwqPVw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=M6ZHxUwqPVw</a><p>[3] Alan Kay&#x27;s Reading List <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.squeakland.org&#x2F;resources&#x2F;books&#x2F;readingList.jsp" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.squeakland.org&#x2F;resources&#x2F;books&#x2F;readingList.jsp</a>
pcmaffeyabout 8 years ago
Lots of focus in the comments here, on the Unions aspect of this post, but Sam leads with how it&#x27;s &quot;tech companies&quot; who have the power and responsibility to change things. And then follows up saying that unions might be a good way to make companies beholden to popular belief.<p>This is mostly bullshit. Instead of putting the honus on the executives and VC&#x27;s who define the growth-first business models, it&#x27;s somehow the responsibility of their employees to wield the power of a tech company responsibly? To shape the direction of a company?<p>Maybe in a round-about way, Sam is saying that unions are the only way to responsibly limit the power of tech companies&#x27; leadership. But make no mistake, the responsibility for the power of technology falls directly in the laps of a company&#x27;s leaders.
metaphormabout 8 years ago
&gt; We also believe tech companies have an opportunity and an obligation to reduce the polarization we&#x27;ve helped create.<p>Liquidate Twitter?
clumsysmurfabout 8 years ago
&quot;We’d also like to discuss how tech companies can heal the divide in our country. We believe that tech companies can create a better economic future for all Americans by spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country and other measures.&quot;<p>Isn&#x27;t the elephant in the room extreme capitalism? Tech is just accelerating it.<p>Perhaps the alternative is workers managing their own workplaces:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Democracy-at-Work-Cure-Capitalism&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1608462471" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Democracy-at-Work-Cure-Capitalism&#x2F;dp&#x2F;...</a>
Apocryphonabout 8 years ago
Every time the idea of a tech workers&#x27; union is brought up, the same tired criticisms of organized labor are brought up again and again.<p>Do people forget that this industry is built upon the ideal of innovation? Why can&#x27;t we build a new type of union that fixes the bugs that prior unions suffered? Why can&#x27;t we experiment and find new solutions? Why can&#x27;t we disrupt the relationship between capital and labor?<p>The notion that unions are somehow inherently unworkable flies in the face of everything that the tech industry stands for.
toomuchtodoabout 8 years ago
It&#x27;d be appreciated if YC would record and or livestream the meeting mentioned near the end of the blog post for those who can&#x27;t be in the Bay Area.
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khazhouabout 8 years ago
A Tech Union is a great idea, starting with Bay Area employees banding together for higher equity at startups. If VC-funded startups suddenly couldn&#x27;t hire their first employees for 1% equity (against the founders&#x27; 50-70%) then we&#x27;d see fairer payouts for successful startups.
drawkboxabout 8 years ago
<i>We believe that tech companies can create a better economic future for all Americans by spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country and other measures</i><p>I believe this is key. Technology does not have to be binded to one or a few locations. If tech could once again try to be spread across other cities and states that will be good for everyone. It will be good for remote work, cost of living, people will support tech growth more nationwide, there will be new ideas that might not emerge in a tech hotspot and not everyone will have to move to one place which is really a single point of failure.
pgodzinabout 8 years ago
&gt; We believe that tech companies can create a better economic future for all Americans by spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country and other measure<p>While an obvious positive, this completely ignores the fact that these higher salaries are precisely because we write software that increases efficiency over what a handful of humans can do. So while there is an increase in high paying jobs, there is inevitably a decrease in many more low paying jobs (short-term at least, likely long-term unless we learn how to re-train people better)
nemildabout 8 years ago
A few weeks back, I wrote a piece about assessing and setting your values as an engineer:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nemil.com&#x2F;musings&#x2F;software-engineers-and-ethics.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nemil.com&#x2F;musings&#x2F;software-engineers-and-ethics....</a><p>I was surprised we didn&#x27;t discuss this more and I wanted to help someone early in their career think through it.<p>(I also got some good feedback from YC&#x27;s Paul Buchheit who helped coin &quot;Don&#x27;t be evil&quot; in the early days of Google)
pizzettaabout 8 years ago
I both like the idea of unions on the one hand (have greater group self-determination) but on the other hand it can lead to ossification and ultimately our own demise (through complacency, irrelevancy, protectionism, etc.)<p>I do like the idea of spreading the wealth to other parts of the country, especially those that are hit hardest by the changing characteristics of the economy --people we often forget, hollowed out industrial cities, forgotten rural areas, etc.
ABCLAWabout 8 years ago
I would love participate in this event and I believe this effort may be an important step in moving us towards ethical software. Unfortunately, despite having a fairly unique and well-suited pedigree to contribute, I live a good thousand miles away.<p>Would there be an opportunity for individuals not located in the Bay Area to attend, provide commentary on meeting notes, or somehow participate without being present locally?
jaequeryabout 8 years ago
What are your guys thoughts on moving or starting a new tech community in a remote city that are not too expensive, such as Alaska even?
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nsxwolfabout 8 years ago
&quot;Rule of law&quot; as a tech worker&#x27;s value? Uber... Air BnB... ... illegal immigration.... does not compute.
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Clananabout 8 years ago
Should this have some sort of warning attached? I&#x27;m not sure every company will like having their (unauthorized) employees defining their policies and values. A common controversy with unions, especially when they&#x27;re forming, is employer discrimination against participants.
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closeparenabout 8 years ago
It&#x27;s pretty much the nature of tech hiring to select the most elite candidates from around the world. Distributing the offices through Rust Belt exurbs does <i>not</i> mean tech jobs for laid-off steelworkers in Rust Belt exurbs.
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Uhhrrrabout 8 years ago
One way to start &quot;spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country&quot; would be to advocate for distributing H1-B jobs via auction, rather than lottery. Perhaps the union could work on this!
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erik_seabergabout 8 years ago
Out of the whole agenda, privacy is the only item for which it matters at all that we&#x27;re in tech. Everything else seems to be things he hopes wealthy people in any booming industry care about.
intrasightabout 8 years ago
The great thing about &quot;values&quot; is that everyone can have their own (play on same phrase with &quot;standards&quot;)<p>To have &quot;rights&quot;, they must be encoded in the legal code.
moonkaabout 8 years ago
This is an interesting initiative, I look forward to seeing where it goes. Kudos to Sam, Debra &amp; Matt for taking a lead on this.
dredmorbiusabout 8 years ago
&quot;What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour.<p>&quot;It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, a merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate.<p>&quot;We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is everywhere a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals. We seldom, indeed, hear of this combination, because it is the usual, and one may say, the natural state of things, which nobody ever hears of. Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy, till the moment of execution, and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do, without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people. Such combinations, however, are frequently resisted by a contrary defensive combination of the workmen; who sometimes too, without any provocation of this kind, combine of their own accord to raise the price of their labour. Their usual pretences are, sometimes the high price of provisions; sometimes the great profit which their masters make by their work. But whether their combinations be offensive or defensive, they are always abundantly heard of. In order to bring the point to a speedy decision, they have always recourse to the loudest clamour, and sometimes to the most shocking violence and outrage. They are desperate, and act with the folly and extravagance of desperate men, who must either starve, or frighten their masters into an immediate compliance with their demands. The masters upon these occasions are just as clamorous upon the other side, and never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen. The workmen, accordingly, very seldom derive any advantage from the violence of those tumultuous combinations, which, partly from the interposition of the civil magistrate, partly from the necessity superior steadiness of the masters, partly from the necessity which the greater part of the workmen are under of submitting for the sake of present subsistence, generally end in nothing, but the punishment or ruin of the ringleaders.&quot;<p>-- Adam Smith, <i>An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations</i>, 1776. Book I, Chapter VIII, &quot;On the Wages of Labour&quot;.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikisource.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Wealth_of_Nations&#x2F;Book_I&#x2F;Chapter_8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikisource.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Wealth_of_Nations&#x2F;Book_...</a>
curiousfiddlerabout 8 years ago
Sorry for digressing from the main intent of the post, but I find it a little odd when in 2017, someone uses the term &quot;worker&quot; to describe me. I try to be definitely more than just that to my team and my organization. Maybe I&#x27;m oversensitive, but it just feels weird.