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Not a Dot-Com Bubble, Not 2007, but a Nasty Mix of Both

81 pointsby esalazarabout 8 years ago

12 comments

pembrookabout 8 years ago
Every retail investor today makes the same exact mistake. They read articles like this and then they go look at a historical chart of the market. They see a massive run up to present day...with the wild fluctuations for 2000 and 2007 magnified due to the exponential data. Psychologically, they think <i>this must be the pattern of the market, we are obviously due for a fall.</i><p>Then, one day years later, after they&#x27;ve lost out on ridiculous gains waiting for the &quot;big drop,&quot; they learn that when looking at a historical market chart to switch from <i>linear</i> to <i>logarithmic</i> scale.<p>Suddenly the crazy recent capitulations just look part of a steady climb with minuscule blips along the way. Go ahead and try it on Google Finance with the S&amp;P. You&#x27;ll be amazed.<p><i>edit</i> Changed &#x27;exponential&#x27; to avoid confusion
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CriticalSectionabout 8 years ago
Every decade since the 1960s, Real (ie. non-financial) US GDP growth has slowed ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;A191RL1Q225SBEA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;A191RL1Q225SBEA</a> ).<p>Industrial capacity utilization has been shrinking since the early 1970s. In the early 1970s, 88% of invested capital was utilized in production. Today that&#x27;s less than 76%. So about a quarter of invested capital is sitting idle currently. ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fraser.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;scribd&#x2F;?toc_id=296052&amp;filepath=&#x2F;files&#x2F;docs&#x2F;publications&#x2F;ERP&#x2F;2012&#x2F;2012_erp.pdf&amp;start_page=378" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fraser.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;scribd&#x2F;?toc_id=296052&amp;filepath...</a> ) ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.federalreserve.gov&#x2F;releases&#x2F;g17&#x2F;revisions&#x2F;Current&#x2F;table1b_rev.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.federalreserve.gov&#x2F;releases&#x2F;g17&#x2F;revisions&#x2F;Curren...</a> )<p>Also in the US we&#x27;ve seen since the 1960s increasing debt percentage across households, corporations and governments, lower wages against different backdrops, and decreased capital re-investment as a percentage of GDP.
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gdubsabout 8 years ago
Alan Watts talks about how some things in life can be like trying to smooth the waves in the ocean with a flat iron.<p>I often think of that when it comes to the Fed. I know next to nothing compared to the financial wizards, but it does seem like every major financial crisis started with some marginal movement by the Fed.<p>I&#x27;m not saying there&#x27;s a better alternative, or necessarily knocking them - I have respect for them. But at times it seems like nobody really knows how the economy works, and each crisis is followed by an, &quot;oops, let&#x27;s not do that again.&quot;
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Alohaabout 8 years ago
Sometimes I wonder if we&#x27;re looking at another 1929 event.<p>Lets posit 1929 - in 1929 by most accounts the economy was booming, drive by easy credit and new inventions, a new consumer oriented society was driving buying on credit and speculation in the stock market. But the economy at its core was weak, specifically in the agricultural sector.<p>Lets Posit today - Uneven recovery from last economic crisis, most of the economy has weak growth, boom of growth in certain markets, weak agricultural commodity pricing.<p>I see parallels, enough parallels to be concerned really, but not enough to go hide in a hole until its all better. I&#x27;m concerned the current administration may not respond full-throatedly enough in the event of a real crisis however.
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lxcidabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;m not well verse in economy but I believe much of what US is today is built on being the global dependency. It&#x27;s like the JQuery of everyone&#x27;s economy: too big to fail.<p>After Trump inarguration, the world got a shock at what a hell of a dependency they got themselves into (bigger shock than 2008). It&#x27;s like the leftpad fiasco all over again. Any sane politician would by now understand the need to reduce dependency on America. Everyone else are planning a Dodd Frank fix for their economy.<p>US will really suffer a crisis if the world stop depending on it, if they can afford to ignore America. After TPP was canned, and Trump protectionism approach, that dependency is surely weaken.<p>If you think about it, China is not even trying to complain about US anymore. That&#x27;s because they got what they wanted.<p>But US had a nuclear arsenal, its better for the world if we had this dependency. Trade and economy have kept peace for so long, I hope I don&#x27;t see an end to this peace.
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good_vibesabout 8 years ago
In my gut, I feel like the same mindset that caused 2000 and 2007 has come together into one that will cause a bubble greater than both. Why do I think that?<p>1.) After watching &#x27;Big Short&#x27;, it made me realize that a lot of what causes a bubble is no one asking difficult questions because nobody wants to be &#x27;that guy&#x27; who ruins the party. 2.) If Facebook, Uber, or the Pepsi ad is any indication, there are a lot of talented &#x27;yes men&#x27; going along with business-as-usual because of self-interest. 3.) Snap is more alarming to me than Tesla. Tesla succeeding with their long-term vision is a much safer bet than Snap is. I know a &#x27;social media influencer&#x27; and he recently told me that a lot of his network is leaving Snap for &#x27;more stable platforms with broader demographics&#x27;. 4.) The recovery will be very different from the last 2 because AI, robots, and other forms of disruption will swallow up thousands, if not millions, of jobs. Why would executives and shareholders decrease margins for PR? Uber was affected a little by their recent issues but they are already &#x27;back on track&#x27; it seems.<p>All in all, I am 27 and graduated high school when 2007 happened. I was 10 when the 2000 happened. This is the only world I know, one that works in 8 year cycles. 1992 Bill Clinton was elected with &#x27;it&#x27;s the economy, stupid&#x27;.<p>We are in for quite a ride because fanaticism, corruption, and climate change are all showing up in unexpected ways too. It will all be okay though, suffering builds character.
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dmoyabout 8 years ago
Can&#x27;t read the article (even with the &#x27;web&#x27; link above via Google), anyone have a summary?
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dbg31415about 8 years ago
I don&#x27;t really know what to do with this news... I mean... do I cancel my 401k, do I sell my house, do I dig a bunker? Recessions come and go, right? What can you do to prepare for the future except keep your debts cleared, keep a certain amount of cash on hand (I like about 6 month&#x27;s worth), invest the rest as wisely as you can... and y&#x27;know... cross your fingers.<p>There will be ups and downs. Life is long. And this is a depressing topic. (=
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tuna-pianoabout 8 years ago
Maybe I don&#x27;t have a full understanding- but economywide, the amount of debt and savings has to be equal, right?<p>So if the debt of these large companies has increased, who is doing the extra savings (and loaning the money to these companies)?<p>And if interest rates double, we will likely see these companies unwind some of their debt positions. What will be the effects of that?
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carsongrossabout 8 years ago
The Shiller PE has been higher than it is today exactly twice, in 1929 and in 1999:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.multpl.com&#x2F;shiller-pe&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.multpl.com&#x2F;shiller-pe&#x2F;</a><p>However, in 1999 it went <i>much</i> higher, so I&#x27;m not sure I&#x27;d be loading up on those shorts.
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nocoderabout 8 years ago
The real blow-up will happen when we stop seeing mainstream articles about a upcoming blow-up.
true_tunaabout 8 years ago
Stop posting paywalled articles. If we ignore them they fail and go away.