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The Dark Side of Doctoring

347 pointsby dyabout 8 years ago

34 comments

pixelmonkeyabout 8 years ago
My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency.<p>The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents.<p>As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: &quot;... a doctor is just one of the many commodities in this complex industry. It’s no longer about the patient. It’s about the business of hospitals.&quot;<p>If doctors were viewed in their industry the way software engineers are viewed in ours -- as specialized skilled labor with <i>extreme</i> leverage and limited time -- then we would have well-supported, well-rested, and well-compensated doctors.<p>But as it stands, we have overworked and overtired doctors buried under a mountain of clerical work, who need to slot their patient in to 15-minute &quot;encounters&quot; in clinic to keep the profit machine running. Meanwhile, administrators, health insurance executives, and medical equipment CEOs work 9-to-5 and earn millions. It really boggles the mind and infuriates me, as a technologist.<p>p.s. Don&#x27;t listen to any of the comment threads here that say long hours are required to reduce patient handoffs. Yes, it&#x27;s true, patient handoffs cause some danger. But tired doctors make mistakes. Period. And, as this post indicates, a perpetually tired doctor burns out and either quits the profession or (worse) commits suicide, which is the <i>worst</i> possible outcome for the system.
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pc2g4dabout 8 years ago
So... because the supply of doctors is restricted but demand for doctors grows proportionally to the population, the amount of work per doctor gradually increases and doctors, persuaded by their ethical obligation of care, put up with it as long as possible until they snap.<p>Yeah?<p>I just recently had a friend completely burn out of medicine, sell his house, and start traveling the world. He was brilliant, a good doctor, a good person. It&#x27;s a shame he&#x27;s been driven out, and so many others.<p>I also recently had the experience of seeing a young doctor bright-eyed and busy-tailed treat me once, and then six months later see him again. The toll that those six months took on him was visible. He was just about haggard with the work. It&#x27;s easy to imagine he won&#x27;t last long.<p>I feel there&#x27;s an interesting parallel with teaching. Teaching and medicine both have licensure requirements, both have a strong appeal to people who care and want to make a difference in the lives of children&#x2F;patients. And in both cases the profession is gradually being taken over by administrators and subject to increasingly onerous regulations.<p>I also recently had a friend burn out of teaching. She&#x27;s set to work in a completely unrelated industry now. She put up with crap for a long time due to her care for the children, but at last she couldn&#x27;t take it.<p>My libertarian side says these are two improperly functioning markets, with massive human casualties. It&#x27;s a shame.
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protonfishabout 8 years ago
The FAA enforces work limitations on pilots, but we schedule our health care workers like this? How are there not even civil cases against errors caused by this kind of administrative foolishness? Overworking doctors like this is insane.
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robbiepabout 8 years ago
Here is some context for this article: Dr Levi is n Australian surgeon. He is responding to a letter from the wife of a gastroenterologist who committed suicide recently.<p>Last week was the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons Annual scientific Congress in adelaide so physician wellbeing is well and truly on the radar, <i>in particular</i> following 3 suicides in the last 6-9 months of junior trainees, one of whom was a friend of mine from medical school.<p>There is now an enquiry into Doctor suicides and wellbeing being performed at the state level in NSW and we (doctors) expect this scope to be broadened to nationwide
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drewg123about 8 years ago
It seems like we have an undersupply of physicians. My understanding is that the AMA limits medical school admissions[1] in order to keep salaries artificially high. This naturally leads to overwork in addition to high salaries.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.usatoday.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;health&#x2F;2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.usatoday.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;health&#x2F;2005-03-02-doctor-shorta...</a>
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kendallparkabout 8 years ago
This is a problem in medical school as well. I can&#x27;t tell you how many anonymous posts have been popping up on r&#x2F;medicalschool lately about being depressed, isolated, lonely, and&#x2F;or suicidal.<p>Missouri just passed the first bill of its kind to try and combat mental health issues in med school.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;krcgtv.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;local&#x2F;medical-student-suicide-prompts-proposed-missouri-legislation" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;krcgtv.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;local&#x2F;medical-student-suicide-prompts...</a><p>&gt; The bill, also known as the Show-Me Compassionate Medical Education Act would establish a committee to study mental illness, suicide and depression in the state&#x27;s six medical schools. The bill would also prohibit any medical school from restricting a study on the mental health of its students.<p>The absolute disturbing part is right here:<p>&gt; While lawmakers debated the legislation, Frederick said the deans from each of the state&#x27;s medical schools sent him a joint letter expressing opposition to his proposed law.<p>In other recent news, Saint Louis University fired their med school dean that was the absolute champion of promoting the mental health of SLU&#x27;s students.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.stlpublicradio.org&#x2F;post&#x2F;slus-medical-school-removes-dean-lauded-preventing-student-depression#stream&#x2F;0" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.stlpublicradio.org&#x2F;post&#x2F;slus-medical-school-remo...</a><p>Furthermore, as part of the licensing process, you are asked whether you were diagnosed with a mental illness in the past. There will likely be an investigation if you say yes and it could impact your career.<p>This stigmatizes mental illness within the profession and keeps people from seeking help when they need it.
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Gatskyabout 8 years ago
Bear in mind this ENT surgeon is still in training, and probably close to 40 years old assuming he started Uni at 18. Training is often brutal because towards the end you are probably among the most important and useful people in the hospital in terms of delivering care, but also have very little control, so of course you get abused. Eg this guy has to write medical certificates as well as perform emergency life saving surgery at 2am and have crushing family meetings with patients dying from untreatable head and neck cancers.<p>Simplistic supply and demand analysis of this issue is annoying and ignores basic economic theory.<p>You don&#x27;t want to increase doctor supply, you want to increase the capacity of the healthcare system to deliver good care (obviously?). Doctor supply is one part of that, but if you pump medical students in at one end and do nothing else, you will fail - this is what the Australian gov has done, and you can see the result here, where trainee conditions are poor (so much competition that you don&#x27;t complain about conditions, power is concentrated in hospitals and senior drs in charge of training programs and hiring who align the system in their favour), and incumbent physicians like the one that committed suicide work like demons and burn out.<p>The financial corollary is fiscal stimulus without any production capacity - GDP doesn&#x27;t go up, inflation does.<p>As always, it doesn&#x27;t have to be this way, but nobody is in charge who cares enough to fix it, and all the stakeholders look after their own interests.
aabajianabout 8 years ago
It&#x27;s worth noting that the incredible success of Epic EMR software is because it tightly controls all of the administrative billing issues, NOT because it makes clinician&#x27;s lives easier. There are <i>endless</i> check boxes in Epic and each site has its own interface. It&#x27;s a huge mess and difficult to navigate...but arguably still better than the other vendors.
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joshuaheardabout 8 years ago
I am a lawyer, and if this was a lawyer&#x27;s story, this would be my advice for the firm. First, they need to hire more lawyers. This guy is way too busy and will make a mistake. Second, he needs a receptionist, secretary, and paralegal to support him. It is wasteful to pay him a doctor&#x27;s salary to answer phones. Third, they need to streamline their record keeping so he doesn&#x27;t spend so much time filling out paperwork.
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Melchizedekabout 8 years ago
<i>The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers.</i><p>Karl Marx
logfromblammoabout 8 years ago
It would appear that the relentless dehumanization of the skilled laborer by business interests has finally spread to the professional classes.<p>I can&#x27;t even recall how many young software companies I have sent my resume to that turned out to be in the business of building software for insurers and hospital systems that end up telling physicians how to do their jobs. Of course, the metrics all back this up as a solid plan that increases productivity and reduces expensive errors and negative outcomes due to inattention, but I know it just has to suck for the docs to have to experience exactly the same thing that has already happened to most other jobs.
Mzabout 8 years ago
From what I gather, one of the reasons physicians like Direct Primary Care is that it is a saner system than what you see in most American medical facilities.<p>I am sort of a medical system drop out. I took my toys and went the fuck home. (No, I was not a doctor. I was a patient who could not get my needs adequately met and walked away from conventional medical treatment for my condition.) So, a lot of people assume I am very anti medicine. They think I am some crazy who just hates modern medicine.<p>This is absolutely not true. But I do hate certain aspects of the system. I think Direct Primary Care would be a step in the right direction.<p>If you are interested in reading a bit about that, I have written a few pieces about Direct Primary Care.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com&#x2F;search?q=direct+primary+care" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com&#x2F;search?q=direct+prim...</a>
doucheabout 8 years ago
This sounds like unrelenting Taylorism, trying to scrape too little butter on too much toast.<p>If all this administrative work needs to be done, do surgeons necessarily need to do it? Can we hire more clerical specialists to offload that work onto, or more PAs or RNs to handle less specialized work?<p>A few measly hundred million in the federal budget could probably be dredged up to subsidize medical school tuition and take some of the sting out of the long, expensive marathon of medical schooling, maybe?
themantalopeabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;m a medical student at a top 20 allopathic school in the U.S. This article resonated with me.<p>I think the part that struck me the most was his comments about time. I have diverse academic interests. I studied math and bio in undergrad. I love machine learning and software development (esp python). I lived in China to study the language for a year. All that gets sucked out of medical school though. We are expected to learn a ton of material in the first two years. Then in the second two years, we are basically working a full time job in the hospital&#x2F;clinics while also studying. We are constantly evaluated. We are also expected to do research and publish papers. I&#x27;ve forgotten what a guilt-free day off feels like.
johan_larsonabout 8 years ago
Why continue in a job that sucks that hard? Is it the money? The prestige? Family expectations? It seems like a terrible way to live.
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electricloveabout 8 years ago
Let&#x27;s create MORE doctors.. There is no shortage of capable people interested in becoming physicians.
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erikbabout 8 years ago
Life gets harder the more we dive into the financial crisis. Blue collar workers sometimes don&#x27;t even get a job anymore, or work 3 at the same time just to pay rent. White collar workers work themselves to death in one job, although I have to admit it&#x27;s maybe only 80% as harsh for IT as in medical. Even the rich that we all complain about lose more and more control over their money and their investments. We just don&#x27;t like to see that, since who wants to admit that someone above oneself in the foodchain may also be struggling? Then we would also need to admit that the dream part of why we slave off ourselves so much will never be true as well.<p>I don&#x27;t think that we&#x27;re heading into a zombie apocalypse level destruction. Highly skilled people will always have one of the best lives. But it gets harder for everybody, and no matter how much we complain there isn&#x27;t anybody who can give us a better life at the moment. Everybody is losing something.
markrosemanabout 8 years ago
Dr. Pamela Wible has long been a very loud voice on the issue of doctor suicide. Check out her website <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.idealmedicalcare.org" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.idealmedicalcare.org</a>, which includes a link to her TED talk on the subject.
markrosemanabout 8 years ago
One theme coming up here is the idea of just graduating more doctors, but even ignoring artificial pressures to keep supply low, it&#x27;s not that simple. Many disciplines, particularly things like surgery, have a lot of requirements beyond just doctors, i.e. nurses, anaesthesia, OR&#x27;s, hospitals, etc.<p>In Canada, we have a fair number of people in certain specialties that cannot find work - think a radiation oncologist who needs some pretty specialized and expensive equipment that only exists in a few places to be useful. But also even more basic... gastroenterologists who can&#x27;t get enough OR time to do scopes on their patients.
harmoniconabout 8 years ago
I am not a doctor, though I have many friends that are either med student or residents and do hear about the harrowing workload and stress quite a bit. I just want to point out the sentiment expressed here should all sounds very familiar to anyone who has ever had a job.<p>The managing class (Company CEO, Hospital&#x2F;University administrators) is ever in the pursuit of more profit, euphemized as &quot;efficiency&quot; or &quot;optimization&quot;, at the expense on everything else. How can we squeeze the employees a little harder so we don&#x27;t have to hire as many? How can we increase &quot;productivity&quot; so more patients can be seen(and pay up)? How can we eliminate waste (lower cost of care as much as possible so we can make more) to the patient? How can we make more money by tweaking our charging model (Insurance rewarding loyal customer by charging them more, Hospital Chargemaster etc)? Oops, I see people are complaining a lot. Let me pay some lip service about appreciating our employees and valuing our customer&#x2F;patients. Heck I am feeling extra generous right now , let&#x27;s put up some cheap program they can participate in. There, they should feel happy now.<p>This is all too familiar in the corporate world. Any employees with a half a brain will get the message loud and clear: employers do NOT care. Or maybe they do, just nowhere near money. See, their incentive is aligned quite nicely: cost cutting&#x2F;profit increasing actions are how they justify their pay and the profit it generates is how they pay themselves. Everything else can be sacrificed.<p>Caring for a patient is a very intellectual, specialized and dare I say it creative task. Doctors are paid well above many other professions though one can argue it is not for the years they have to invest into training and the work hours. The point is, at the end of day they are glorified laborers, being told by their boss what to do, just like the rest of us. Prestige has shielded the medical profession for decades but now the grip of corporate America has finally caught up. And lo and behold, what scant voice and influence do we have!<p>We absolutely do need managers&#x2F;administrators. We need them to make sure companies&#x2F;hospitals are running smoothly, is well funded and serve the customer well. But the lack of voice and the power imbalance in employment is suffocating. We are partners not servants or slaves. And the all consuming focus on money has got to stop. Human welfare deserve to be at the top. not profit.
tejaswiyabout 8 years ago
After working in healthcare IT, I can atleast attest to the general UI clunkiness and terrible software quality that is prevalent in the industry.<p>Innovation in Health IT happens usually because CMS (Agency that administers Medicare, Medicaid etc) looks at the landscape and comes up with a carrot &#x2F; stick rewards system to force Hospitals and practices to update their software. They generally do things like:<p>* Hey you need to store records electronically. If you do this by X, you will get Y$. If not, you will be penalized Z$ every year after X.<p>* Hey the system you built - It needs to actually be able to talk to other systems. If you do this by X.. you get the point.<p>* The data you&#x27;re collecting in your system is stupid. We need X, Y and Z reports to ensure you&#x27;re actually using the system as we meant for you to use the system. Do this by X.<p>Several other misc things I noticed:<p>The industry by itself is extremely complex with business requirements that vary between hospitals, practices, labs and so on. This makes connecting systems together a nightmare. Even when you manage to integrate systems, each hospital and practice has a set of business practices (forms they collect, the way they organize information etc) that make rolling software out very hard. Configurability is king. Making everything configurable and having configuration engineers set things up makes automated testing very hard at a UI level. This leads to some sharp corners and contributes to bugs and general UX clunkiness.<p>UX design isn&#x27;t generally valued and suits &#x2F; &quot;business requirements&quot; &#x2F; timelines are prioritised over usable, stable, secure software. This is a typical UI: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;uxpajournal.org&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2014&#x2F;07&#x2F;smelcer3.gif" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;uxpajournal.org&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2014&#x2F;07&#x2F;smelcer3.g...</a><p>Standards are out of date and the only thing pushing innovation here is CMS doing its best. The problem with this is that they&#x27;re a govt agency, so they&#x27;re generally slow and they&#x27;re an insurance company, so their primary motivation is to cut cost of care.<p>Doctors are generally smart, and you can sometimes get good feedback from them, but they&#x27;re already overworked and can&#x27;t really vocalize what they find frustrating about software.<p>I hate to generalize, but in my experience atleast, all other people (middle management, front-desk staff) are useless. By that I mean they just don&#x27;t understand how software works.<p>There are some smart CIOs, but they care about their position and the hospital bottom-line, so trying to sell them something that doesn&#x27;t exactly line up with the CMS carrot &#x2F; stick model is basically impossible.
qrbLPHiKpiuxabout 8 years ago
Another modern problem is private equity in the business of health care making money hand over fist with all libiality on the individual physician. All risk shifted from the partners.
yakultabout 8 years ago
According to my GP, selection for doctors include psychiatric profiling designed to select for the most compassionate. While I can see why the hospitals would want this - compassionate doctors are good PR -this seems to be a case of misaligned incentives. Those with less compassion would suffer less and cope better when surrounded by death and suffering on a daily basis. On the whole, this probably means they&#x27;ll do a better job, too.
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knownabout 8 years ago
<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.law.harvard.edu&#x2F;abinazir&#x2F;2005&#x2F;05&#x2F;23&#x2F;why-you-should-not-go-to-medical-school-a-gleefully-biased-rant&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.law.harvard.edu&#x2F;abinazir&#x2F;2005&#x2F;05&#x2F;23&#x2F;why-you-sho...</a>
Ericson2314about 8 years ago
So clearly healthcare in the US is fucked end to end. Has anyone (government or private sector) tried or proposed some sort of trial hospital where we just clean-slate redesign and evaluate the whole thing?<p>*Probably would need to be government as would need exceptions from tons of laws.
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k__about 8 years ago
Why do we do this to people who save our life&#x27;s? Why do we let them burn out?
hourislateabout 8 years ago
Perhaps the solution to the unreasonable demands placed on Doctors&#x2F;Surgeons is moving forward with A.I, Stem Cell research, Robotic surgery, etc. Technology should relieve some of the pressure.
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timwaaghabout 8 years ago
a surgeon is considered replacable? they just might be the least replacable professionals out there. i don&#x27;t know what he is thinking. doctors are the elite. at least where i live a surgeon can out-earn even government ministers and CEO&#x27;s.<p>indispensible. irreplacable. the rest of the industry should therefore be focussed on getting as much value out of these doctors. which means they should be focussing on taking any paperwork out of docs hands.
novalis78about 8 years ago
Maybe he would be much happier working at a place like the Surgery Center of Oklahoma which seems to do much better on the administrative side of things.
woodandsteelabout 8 years ago
I wonder if there are any research projects comparing physician workload and satisfaction in various countries with various health care systems.
bluetwoabout 8 years ago
Where does the AMA stand on this?
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Floegipokyabout 8 years ago
Related: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wbur.org&#x2F;commonhealth&#x2F;2017&#x2F;05&#x2F;12&#x2F;boston-electronic-medical-records" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wbur.org&#x2F;commonhealth&#x2F;2017&#x2F;05&#x2F;12&#x2F;boston-electroni...</a><p>I always see people ragging on EMRs. They&#x27;re inefficient, have poor UX, require way too much documentation, etc. These are all fair criticisms, but I don&#x27;t think people spend enough time asking why. Why are all the major EMR systems shitty in exactly the same way?<p>I think there&#x27;s 2 main parts to the answer. The first is the sales process. The people selling EMRs to hospitals aren&#x27;t selling their product to clinicians, they&#x27;re selling their brand to the hospital administration. It&#x27;s like the saying &quot;nobody ever got fired for choosing Oracle&quot;, but far worse. The end result is years-long implementation processes, broken promises, and terrible tools that are optimized to allow the hospital to fire a few members of the low-level administrative staff (billing, coding, etc) instead of providing better care to the community they serve.<p>The second part of this problem is overregulation. The justification is that EMRs should be able to meet a certain level of functionality. Based on personal experience working with these regulations, I&#x27;m convinced that the real reason these certifications exist is to prevent new players from entering the market. They are very much in the spirit of &quot;well all these legacy systems do [something], so _obviously_ everybody else should too&quot; without ever leaving room to come up with a better solution. They shackle you to terrible design choices and assume that all hospitals, from a 10-bed critical access hospital to a 500-bed academic medical center, should all be run the same way. And worst of all, they make it impossible to design a system based on what the HOSPITAL needs, because half of the system is devoted to what the GOVERNMENT needs. Kind of like how people complain about interoperability between electronic medical systems. So the government introduces legislation to mandate interoperability, by requiring implementation of poorly-defined &quot;standards&quot; (designed by committees comprised mostly of, you guessed it, representatives from legacy vendors). From personal experience, I can say that every. single. one. of the interfaces required for federal certification is completely unable to be reused by actual hospitals. But that&#x27;s the entire purpose, that&#x27;s exactly why lobbyists paid so much money to get the regulations passed in the first place! If potential new competition has to sink thousands of man-hours every year into building useless functionality, that&#x27;s thousands of man-hours that didn&#x27;t go into making their product competitive and disrupting the marketshare of legacy systems. Meanwhile, legacy systems are maintaining their market share, not by improving their product and helping healthcare providers do a better job. Instead they&#x27;re actively creating situations where smaller hospitals are forced to choose between buying onto the licenses of larger hospitals or shutting their doors.<p>Obviously this is all just my personal opinion.
kapauldoabout 8 years ago
Hard to feel sympathy for millionaires living a life of their choosing.
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andyabout 8 years ago
What other dark side of doctoring issue can I think of? Well, the doctors and nurses at Fairmount kept me prisoner without the ability to call my friends or family, denied me water, physically tackled me and tied me down. I was not allowed to use a lawyer of my choosing. I did not hit back when they tackled me. I never committed a crime. I feel like I am being repetitive. That is completely on purpose. The dark side of doctoring is at Fairmount Behavioral Health in Philadelphia, PA. It&#x27;s a hellhole and should be closed. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;surroundedbyspies.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;surroundedbyspies.com</a>