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Etsy is under pressure to start acting more like a conventional company

241 pointsby marvinpintoabout 8 years ago

24 comments

cowpewterabout 8 years ago
Etsy first started losing their appeal when they gave up even pretending to not allow Alibaba resellers, and lost the &quot;hand-made&quot; distinction that made their site unique.<p>Currently they&#x27;re going through a round of &quot;let&#x27;s alienate all the small unique sellers that are still using our service&quot; by changing their payment policies. Sellers are being required to accept Etsy&#x27;s payment processing, where before accepting Paypal was sufficient. Signing up for Etsy&#x27;s payment processing requires giving Etsy a whole bunch of private information that a lot of sellers (at least in the internet circles I run in) are not comfortable giving out to Etsy, especially sellers that do not live in the US.<p>Etsy is quickly losing the sellers that make their site worth visiting to Storenvy.
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wgynabout 8 years ago
&gt; “There is one and only one social responsibility of business,” the economist Milton Friedman famously wrote in 1962. And that is “to use its resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits.”<p>It&#x27;s strange to me that Friedman is viewed (at least by economists and &quot;business&quot; folk) as a paragon of logical reasoning and empiricism, all the while his views reek so strongly of ideology. There are tons of reasons why the quoted statement might be false whether you&#x27;re a policy maker (negative externalities) or even the most cold-hearted capitalist (short-term incentives).<p>Perhaps relatedly, it&#x27;s actually not true that corporate responsibility to profit is codified in the law. See e.g. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Shlensky_v._Wrigley" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Shlensky_v._Wrigley</a> (discussed further in <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.co.uk&#x2F;Shareholder-Value-Myth-Shareholders-Corporations&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1605098132" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.co.uk&#x2F;Shareholder-Value-Myth-Shareholders...</a>)
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shawnbadenabout 8 years ago
This applies to any job: work where what you do is the core discipline. At a law firm, be a lawyer. At a medical practice, be a doctor. As a software engineer, work at a company where software is the product. Don’t write software at an insurance company and expect job satisfaction. At such companies software engineers are seen as replaceable.<p>Another option: work where what you do is largely represented by upper management. They make the decisions and if they worked in your discipline they will empathize with you, defend you, and promote you.
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jlyabout 8 years ago
They made a deal with the devil (went public) that made many of the employees and shareholders wealthy, and now the price is being paid. The rules have changed and the primary goal now is maximum profit above everything else, no matter how many speeches about &quot;social responsibility&quot; they may deliver internally or externally. The opening quote by Friedman tells you everything you need to know.
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skizmabout 8 years ago
Opportunities created by Etsy&#x27;s shortcomings:<p>1) Create an Etsy review site&#x2F;blog&#x2F;mailing list that points to the &quot;good&quot; merchants.<p>2) IndieHackers for Etsy. Do some interviews with legit Etsy owners who sell quality stuff and make a living on Etsy.<p>3) Independent review company that rates etsy sellers.<p>4) Hard mode: compete directly with Etsy and have some sort of verification process that you&#x27;re not drop-shipping crap from China.
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etsythrowawayabout 8 years ago
As someone who has been here for &gt;= 6 months, I welcome this change. There&#x27;s an incredible amount of bloat here, including the datacenter we run to the managers we have. I&#x27;m hoping these top level changes can help bring a more accountable culture. Btw, people make fun of #blameless internally now because it literally means you can be sloppy and get away with it.
sciurusabout 8 years ago
Black-and-white Capital&#x27;s press releasing calling for changes at Etsy is at <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.businesswire.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;home&#x2F;20170502005999&#x2F;en&#x2F;black-and-white-Capital-Calls-Change-Etsy" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.businesswire.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;home&#x2F;20170502005999&#x2F;en&#x2F;blac...</a><p>To me it&#x27;s fascinating how deep in the technical weeds it is. For example, suggesting changes to their search ranking algorithms.<p>Some of it strikes me as likely inaccurate. E.G.<p>&quot;It is black-and-white’s understanding that more than 50% of the approximately 450 people on the R&amp;D team focus on maintaining the Company’s costly internal infrastructure. A shift to the public cloud would provide long-term cost savings while also establishing a more flexible infrastructure to support future growth.&quot;<p>I doubt that Etsy can significantly reduce headcount by moving their servers from on-prem to public cloud.
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dkarapetyanabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;ve lost count now of how many companies have started unconventional and then migrated to just being another regular old corporation with all the usual corporate problems.<p>Investors are regular people and like regular people they like being around the devil they know vs the one they don&#x27;t.
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bognitionabout 8 years ago
I can&#x27;t help but think that the buyer appeal just isn&#x27;t there. Looking back at the last couple of years I&#x27;ve bought a handful of items off of etsy. Come to think of it I probably buy more from EBay that from etsy, which is totally weird because I hate buying things on ebay.
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jorblumeseaabout 8 years ago
Completely anecdotal, but I worked for a company that was a vendor to Etsy and working with them was really difficult due to internal organizational problems. The teams I interacted with were somewhat dysfunctional, with lots competing interests and directions. Definitely got the vibe that they didn&#x27;t have a good sense of company direction.<p>My guess is Etsy hit it big on the niche craft market but didn&#x27;t know where to go from there.
dominotwabout 8 years ago
Why is ETSY stock soaring? I don&#x27;t get it. Are they doing something to get rid of crap on their site?<p>Edit: sorry, I meant soaring this week.
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Akarnaniabout 8 years ago
There is no logic that justifies attempting to be &quot;not another public company&quot; if you are a public company.<p>Laws. Culture. Press. These things stand in the way of trying to be public while saying you won&#x27;t act like a public company (by being a b-corp for example).<p>Public companies have functionally modular governance, which means if I don&#x27;t like you (manager) and your ideas, my friends and I can buy enough governance units until you have to listen to us. It&#x27;s not quite that straightforward but it&#x27;s pretty much how it works.<p>In a way, it&#x27;s similar to venture—you can try to escape the gravity of venture norms but to do that you need viral + network effect growth.<p>In the Market, you can try to escape the gravity of public company norms but to do that you need Amazon level revenue growth and the temerity of Jeff Bezos. Even then its an outside bet.<p>Rabois says startups should go public and I suspect his approach to the problem is he believes (im armchairing here) that the problem of founders hiding mistakes &#x2F; making intellectually lazy decisions &#x2F; not serving the financial goals &#x2F; creating weird preference structures trying to raise money at scale from funds &gt;&gt; public market shareholders killing a geese for next quarters egg.
socrates1998about 8 years ago
I thought Etsy already sold out? Everything I hear from people who sell on there is that it is loaded with Chinese mass produced crap?<p>I am not sure if people see the contradiction of the platform, create a massive global online market place for handmade, unique expensive items. I mean, how could those two things every come into conflict with each other?
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oihpojef0jeoihabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;d like to pre-order &quot;Don&#x27;t&#x27; Quit Your Day Job, the Rise &amp; Fall of Etsy&quot; if someone with inside knowledge is ready to write it.<p>I&#x27;m not an insider by any means but I&#x27;ve heard some fascinating stories over the years about how the company has coped (and failed to cope) with the trappings of success.
zaptheimpalerabout 8 years ago
Fascinating - why does a strongly worded letter from a 2% shareholder prompt layoffs and major changes within hours? Like if the board believes they are doing OK, or that perhaps it will take a longer time for their current plan to payoff and reflect in revenues, can they not communicate that and continue? 2% isn&#x27;t enough to force any decision.
wslhabout 8 years ago
I am wondering if, indeed, there are only a few real unicorns: Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Facebook. Other companies are having a hard time: Twitter, Zynga (remember it?), Etsy, etc.
tehabeabout 8 years ago
If you go public, you have to obey to the rules of the market you join. That why I don&#x27;t get why some companies even go public.
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MichaelGGabout 8 years ago
Bizarre. I&#x27;ve only tried to use Etsy once, figuring it&#x27;d be a great place to get some sort of unique jewellery as a gift. It&#x27;s filled with junk, both of the super-manufactured kind and of the &quot;modern art&quot; kind (someone glues 2 pieces of crap together and wants $500.) I haven&#x27;t gone back, though I did enjoy the Regretsy blog while it was up.<p>&gt;Etsy’s insistence on running its own servers rather than using cloud-based services and software offered by companies such as Google and Amazon—an emphasis that was known, under Dickerson, as “code as craft”<p>That reminds me of the silly StackOverflow &quot;if you are a real &lt;hacker&#x2F;programmer&#x2F;developer&#x2F;whatever&gt; you must setup your own servers&quot;. There are certain benefits of cloud or not, but this kind of thinking confuses me. Why stop there? Do they build their own Ethernet cables? Racks? Make their own distros, compilers, etc.? Build their own network -- after all, your network is critical in delivering pages to your users, why outsource this to XO and Cogent and so on?<p>Edit: Yes, I understand the pricing differences of cloud. So just say &quot;it&#x27;s cheaper to run our own stuff&quot;, don&#x27;t pretend its due to some desire for &quot;craft&quot;.<p>&gt;food scraps were packed onto a Dutch cargo bike, which an “office ecologist” would pedal several miles to a Brooklyn farm<p>It&#x27;s like they want to parody themselves?<p>&gt;Senior Engineer...&quot;I’m just allergic to capitalism&quot;<p>But presumably not allergic to using capitalists money to hire people to bike your leftovers around town.
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Exumaabout 8 years ago
The entitled employee comments at the bottom made me literally groan. Everyone bemoaning facts of life, it&#x27;s not like what they did was a surprise or unjust. If your job title is &quot;Senior internal paper waste management analysis director&quot; then you shouldn&#x27;t be surprised when you get canned.
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gotthemwmdsabout 8 years ago
Etsy anecdote from someone generally outside of their main market:<p>I have ordered something off of Etsy 3 times. 2 of those times, there was a minor &quot;customer service&quot; level issue. Once, I accidentally put in the wrong zip code and, after the package was returned to the seller, I was refused any refund (it was &quot;my fault&quot; -- too bad). Another time, I was shipped the wrong item and the back-and-forth between the seller to replace the item ended up taking more time than I was willing to spend on said $15 item and I gave up.<p>In the first case, I did reach out to Etsy, and was told to resolve the issue with the seller. After much back-and-forth, with the seller insisting it was my fault for typoing the zip code and there was nothing they could do short of re-ordering (and re-paying) entirely, I ended up convincing them to let me directly Paypal them shipping costs for the second attempt at shipping, which went fine.<p>This process took entirely too much time (especially when one thinks of experiences with Amazon -- where they resend stuff in orders-gone-awry right away, without any question, or significant delay).<p>My main impression of Etsy is: there are some cool items in its unique&#x2F;niche marketplace and I would like to buy stuff off of Etsy more often in general, but the site is largely irrelevant to me as a &quot;place to shop&quot; because of the lack of an empowered Etsy customer service level between the buyer and seller -- protecting and advocating for both parties. Of course, not all sellers are at fault here, and I&#x27;m sure many Etsy sellers (probably the majority?) facilitate minor order issues brilliantly. This is just my personal experience.<p>I would feel a lot better about Etsy if I knew I had someone with the power (at Etsy) to help when something unexpectedly went wrong with an order, regardless of where the fault lies. I kind of felt like it was a cop-out by Etsy to place all customer service expectations on the buyer and seller directly.<p>Anyway, I like the concept of Etsy a lot (I helped my 67 year old mother open an account to sell her embroidery!), but I can&#x27;t spend 10+ emails worth of time over 2 weeks trying to fix minor order issues, which, in my personal anecdotal experience, has been the case exactly 66.6% of the time.<p>If Etsy promoted a strong customer-positive service vibe -- as the empowered middle-person between the seller&#x2F;maker and buyer -- I&#x27;d feel a lot better about trying again to buy stuff via it.<p>And this isn&#x27;t an entirely buyer-sided argument. I would hope that Etsy sees customer service as a boon to both seller and buyer, and would make life easy on the seller as well as the buyer when these small &quot;consumer snafus&quot; show up. For example, not wasting the sellers time, or charging them fees, or being stingy about refunding fees, when minor things like this happen. It seems self-evident that a protected seller -- one who doesn&#x27;t have to worry about Etsy putting them through the ringer over a minor order mistake -- would make a happier seller. Which seems like it would naturally trickle down to happier buyers as well.
ClearAsMudabout 8 years ago
To bad they don&#x27;t sell hand made, home grown artist stuff anymore. The Chinese knock-off Gucci &quot;authentic&quot; syndication machine took over under many names &#x2F; masks &#x2F; illusions. It&#x27;s more the Walmart Hobby Lobby .. where it all looks good on the way or on your back (shirt&#x2F;whatever) .. it&#x27;s still most likely made in China. #fact. The revenue is more about the fees and clear profit machine that is required to run a profitable business on their side. The problem? The sellers - the &quot;real&quot; ones like myself and my wife. We sell authenticate stuff with pottery and photography made locally here in Buffalo. However, I find more and more #buffalo search related material are major hub outlets of people I don&#x27;t know. I&#x27;ve been doing this for almost 7 years now - I know people here and the artists specifically OF Buffalo. It&#x27;s the trend that then started to go up in margin % and no return. Only recently have I seen an overhaul to the interface for the Store, but it runs like a sweatshop with minimal tools that any of us were accustomed to online. I wish it was better, but we are leaving and concentrating on real world sales.
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ClearAsMudabout 8 years ago
Second constructive comment I hope - but welcome to the online Strip Mall 2.0
SomeStupidPointabout 8 years ago
The focus on eternally positive second derivatives is the cancer of American capitalism.
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FussyZeusabout 8 years ago
&gt; A similar model had worked spectacularly well for EBay Inc., which had made money for 21 straight years...How, Wunder asked, was Etsy not making more money?<p>Because EBAY was already in that market! It&#x27;s really no wonder Etsy has tanked as a community, sellers fleeing in droves, as the company works hard to destroy what it was, something unique, successful (even if it wasn&#x27;t eating the world) and highly responsive to user&#x27;s needs, into YET ANOTHER EBAY CLONE full of sweatshop manufactured crap.<p>Hooray for Capitalism! Race to the bottom!<p>&#x2F;rant
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