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DevOps is a culture, not a role

236 pointsby mromniaalmost 8 years ago

25 comments

skywhopperalmost 8 years ago
First, let me say I totally agree with the premise here--that all parts of a software engineering organization need to be on board with DevOps, buying in to the vision, learning the full stack, taking responsibility.<p>However, this article does serve as a good example of one of the big problems with most DevOps&#x2F;SRE evangelism: It&#x27;s usually coming from the Dev- perspective, rather than the -Ops perspective (or better, a balanced perspective). In particular, this focuses mostly on getting code to users, and speeding up that process. While that&#x27;s certainly important, it leaves out any discussion of:<p><pre><code> * security * infrastructure design * instrumentation and monitoring * planning for failure * security * performance evaluation and tuning * disaster recovery planning * security * off-hours on-call responsibilities * security </code></pre> Successful DevOps cultures <i>must</i> address these things just as much as they address code feedback loops, time-to-production, rollback strategies, code pipeline automation, etc.
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shitloadofbooksalmost 8 years ago
&quot;DevOps Engineer&quot; is simply just title inflation.<p>In 2017, there&#x27;s literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a &quot;Systems Engineer&quot; and a &quot;DevOps Engineer&quot; - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ &quot;Systems Engineer&quot;<p>Developers don&#x27;t call themselves &quot;Agile Developers&quot; because they started using agile methodologies or &quot;CI Developers&quot; with the boom of CI, but for some reason Ops guys want to call themselves &quot;DevOps Engineers&quot; because they read The Phoenix Project.<p>People talk about automation as if automation = DevOps, but I believe automation is a side-effect of the shared empathy which DevOps fosters. Because you have that empathy with your devs, you realize that their main goal is to be able to get their code in front of users _as fast as possible_. Automation is the answer to that.
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benjaminwoottonalmost 8 years ago
Having worked on over 100 DevOps initiatives, I&#x27;m inclined to disagree.<p>8 years into DevOps, automation, cloud computing etc, it&#x27;s time to accept that DevOps is a specialism and a function that companies - especially big ones - need to put into place in order to adopt the principles.<p>See here for further thoughts - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;devops.com&#x2F;im-happy-devops-engineer-job-title&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;devops.com&#x2F;im-happy-devops-engineer-job-title&#x2F;</a>
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m23khanalmost 8 years ago
I am a DevOps Engineer by trade and title.<p>Here is my take on this:<p>It is a role - not something that can be done by OPS or DEV or SEC or what have you.<p>Allow me to explain my 2 cents worth:<p>- With the amounts of tooling (CI&#x2F;CD pipeline, infrastructure monitoring, infra. provisioning, config. management, etc.), you do not want your DEVs or your full-time admins focusing on this bit at-all. It is good if they have some know-how (or even if they do the initial groundwork) but if your DEVs or sys admins are focusing on what &#x27;entails&#x27; as DevOps -- then Houston, we got a problem. Because this means that DEV or sys admin or what have you is not focusing 100% on their role.<p>- Why is &#x27;DevOps&#x27; getting so much flak?? How about titles&#x2F;roles such as &#x27;scrum master&#x27; or &#x27;Agile Practitioner&#x27; or &#x27;Product Owner&#x27;?<p>- I am not a noob by any means (~10 yr IT experience) and I am past the stage of getting excited by a job title. However, the &#x27;DevOps&#x27; title given to a &#x27;DevOps&#x27; guy is a correct move. AND, believe-it-or-not, it is a IT specialization -- just like &#x27;cloud&#x27; is. Just because everything is a code doesn&#x27;t mean you don&#x27;t need a dedicated person who will not only preach DevOps -- but will also &#x27;implement&#x27; DevOps -- and that fella should be called &#x27;DevOps&#x27; -- just like &#x27;Agile Coach&#x27; ;-)
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elnygrenalmost 8 years ago
Yes yes, we get it, it&#x27;s a mindset not a role. Now could we hire a DevOps guy to setup that CI&#x2F;CD pipeline, ChatOps stuff, Kubernetes and dev&#x2F;staging&#x2F;prod flow so the coders can ship. ;)<p>The original thought was beautiful but the way I see it: DevOps is a branch where you specialise. After school people might learn front&#x2F;back&#x2F;db stuff and then specialise to &quot;DevOps stuff&quot; -- or then you have more sysops kind of people who start to venture in the land of automating their work. Both are needed imho.
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holydudealmost 8 years ago
I do not know. We always had &quot;DevOPS&quot; aka sysadmin that knew C,perl and bunch of others. Then it became too much for a single person to know everything and we invented &quot;more ops&quot; and &quot;more programmer&quot;. Now we have better tools albeit more complex and we have decided that we again can have this &quot;DevOPS&quot; person whatever that means.<p>But again we are facing this dilemma when there are literally thousands of different tools and ecosystems and you just simply cannot be an EXPERT or even ADVANCED in most of them. We should clearly define what we expect from the role and the candidate. We can&#x27;t waste other people&#x27;s time by hiring for DevOPS when we clearly want a PowerShell programmer,windows administrator and database admin in a single package
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mugsiealmost 8 years ago
Everywhere you see the word &quot;devops&quot; replace it with the word &quot;empathy&quot;.<p>That was the true meaning of DevOps - fostering empathy and communication between different groups, and to stop the siloed &quot;throw code over the wall to Ops&quot; mentality that existed.<p>By having a &quot;DevOp&#x27;s Engineer&quot; you have admitted you have failed at DevOps, because you have created a new silo.<p>A good team will have a combination of Operations Engineers, Software Engineers, Automation Engineers and Test Engineers all of whom work together, and collaborate on tooling, processes and deployments, who also share in the rewards for a projects success, and share in the responsibility for when something goes wrong.<p>DevOps is not a team created to &quot;provide DevOps services to R&amp;D&quot; - which is the basic job description for far to many DevOps jobs postings.<p>It is also not just handy R&amp;D pagers, and expecting them to manage a system.<p>Of course all of this is talking about the initial spirit of DevOps, not the current &quot;Buy my Book&quot;, consultant driven mess that is now associated with the word.
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ciguyalmost 8 years ago
As a DevOps consultant, I think it can actually be both. Culture is central to DevOps but someone has to lead. Sometimes this can be the CTO but often it helps to have a dedicated advocate, especially within larger orgs&#x2F;teams.<p>Essentially it boils down to semantics. Often DevOps engineers are one part evangelist and one part automation engineer. The software industry has just chosen to call those people &quot;DevOps&quot;.
robert_tweedalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;ve seen two prevalent definitions of devops:<p>1. It&#x27;s a culture where dev and ops work together (as per TFA);<p>2. It is the application of software engineering practises (such as version control and test automation) to ops.<p>I prefer the second definition because it&#x27;s the only one that&#x27;s got anything to do with new developments in infrastructure-as-code and isn&#x27;t just a new name for what competent teams were always doing anyway.
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Stranger43almost 8 years ago
A big part of the problem is that DevOps are not really about new technologies but just a new word the same bottom up management theory that also gave rise to buzzwords like LEAN.<p>In essence it&#x27;s a shift from thinking in terms of grand strategic plans drawn up by the high management to be mindlessly implemented by the &quot;replaceable&quot; employees, to thinking in terms of reacting to problems as seen from the bottom of the org chart.<p>The problems with buy in is that DevOps kills a lot of the prestige difference between different teams&#x2F;silo&#x27;s as it&#x27;s basically about realizing that the no developer or systems architect have enough knowledge about the &quot;real world&quot; problem they are trying to solve to design&#x2F;write anything in isolation.<p>Or to put it differently DevOps means that the implementation and development teams owe operations a steak dinner if&#x2F;when the system tumbles over and operations gets the dreaded 3am pager call, due to an untested edge case, not that the two roles merge into one.
jnevelsonalmost 8 years ago
Here&#x27;s my point of view as someone who&#x27;s title currently is &quot;Senior DevOps Engineer&quot;, and used to be a software engineer for many years:<p>DevOps has multiple meanings - in some (usually smaller) companies it can be thought of as a philosophy in that all developers are responsible for managing production infrastructure and their deployments. As a company scales, and the codebase grows, people have to start specializing. It&#x27;s just not feasible for everyone to have perfectly overlapping skillsets and be completely replaceable by each other. It happens with frontend&#x2F;backend, and it happens with &quot;DevOps&quot;. I focus on our production infrastructure, making sure deployments are smooth, our database has backups, etc. That doesn&#x27;t mean that other developers are completely detached from our production environment - if there&#x27;s an issue in production multiple parties are involved in working through it and fixing.<p>I personally interchange the title DevOps Engineer with Site Reliability Engineer, Infrastructure Engineer, Ops&#x2F;SysOps Engineer, etc. Different companies have different titles, but I&#x27;d wager that the majority of those positions tend to perform work of a similar nature. Depending on the size of the company, some may specialize even more (i.e. a large company may have SRE to focus on production&#x2F;monitoring, and someone else to focus on deployments). It definitely varies company to company, but by and large I think it can all be grouped under &quot;software operations&quot;, which itself is a subset of software engineering.
np422almost 8 years ago
While I agree that DevOps needs to be a mindset&#x2F;culture to be of any benefit beside ticking buzzwords checkboxes - but I really don&#x27;t see any harm in giving someone a title containing the word DevOps.<p>Someone who can do the proselytism, take initiatives to drive the adaption and at the same time be the go to guy for the technical knowledge needed for any new processes&#x2F;tools.<p>We all agree that the old waterfall inspired way of working when the developers work on their own, throws a bunch of new code down a hatch for the ops guys to deploy and they both blame the other team when something don&#x27;t work is less than desirable.<p>Maybe there are some startups that have the devops mindset already from the beginning and a few old companies that can get there on there own, but I think many need some help to get there. Perhaps they could hire someone to get them started?
djohnstonalmost 8 years ago
My official title is DevOps, but my coworkers know that I&#x27;m just the most cloud-oriented developer on the team. In that regard I also regularly push code into our products, with an insistence that I am not simply the guy that does AWS&#x2F;Jenkins&#x2F;Ansible work.<p>So, in one respect I entirely agree that DevOps is just another developer, at least the way I practice it. That being said, it&#x27;s naive to think that DevOps isn&#x27;t a specialization, or that everyone writing your code is going to be equally knowledgable on a product landscape as complex as AWS.<p>Ultimately where you fall on the spectrum of developer and ops is company specific, even project specific, and to try and make some generalizable dogma on the issue is a waste of time.
dpeckalmost 8 years ago
Related, I&#x27;ve found that the term devops is too poisoned to be used effectively when hiring. It brings out charlatans in far greater numbers than anything else at the moment. Garden variety technician level folks who self inflate their titles and roles to try to jump from 60k to 100k overnight. It&#x27;s been frustrating as they&#x27;re able to get things syntactically correct for the most part that they get through early phone screening but absolutely fall apart once they reach someone with technical expertise, wasting everyone&#x27;s times.
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bsharittalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;ve been browsing around job boards lately and see a lot of &quot;DevOps Engineer&quot; positions, but the descriptions of each vary widely. Some of them appear to be &quot;real&quot; DevOps roles, that is they sit somewhere between the traditional dev and ops roles and the basic mission is to get code out to users fast. But then many of them are simply rebranded systems engineers, while others are dev roles where managing infrastructure is part of the job, while other job description have read like very basic sysadmin job descriptions.
slackingoff2017almost 8 years ago
Devops just means your IT people are software engineers. That&#x27;s it.<p>Web systems are so complex (and automated) to manage these days that you need to be able to write code to manage the infastructure.<p>Google has been doing this for ages without calling it Devops. As far as I&#x27;m aware all of their main support people are software devs
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dkhenryalmost 8 years ago
I agree its a culture, but there is a role to be played, and in all the cases where I have moved teams down the DevOps path it has always started with specialists who can help the team out as they transition.<p>Then there is the operations part, no sane person would say since we do &quot;DevOps&quot; and &quot;Continuous Delivery&quot; now, so lets give ever member of the team full admin on AWS. Even in a _very_ mature organization you have snowflakes. If your DevOps team is doing its job, more and more of the workflow is being shifted all the time to the product teams and less and less is being owned by them. Then once they have delivery fully migrated, they move on to be your SRE&#x27;s which is something I think most teams who have devops people will never get to.
ForHackernewsalmost 8 years ago
In my experience, &quot;devops&quot; is just employer-speak for &quot;We&#x27;re too cheap to hire proper sysops or DBAs, so we&#x27;ll expect you to do everything yourself.&quot;
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matt_wulfeckalmost 8 years ago
Here&#x27;s a thought: skilled devops engineers are indistinguishable from skilled software engineers, and vice versa.<p>Who can be specialized anymore? Isn&#x27;t devops just the compression of skill sets that we&#x27;ve been witnessing for the last two decades?<p>As a developer, you now must be able to deploy, to write and maintain unit tests, and possess the knowledge to debug code deep on the system and network layer, and write code that follows up-to-date security practices.<p>Specialization is dying.
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ransom1538almost 8 years ago
Dev = &quot;how do i start a new instance? just chmod -R 777!&quot;<p>Ops = &quot;yyour code is broken!&quot;<p>Devops = &quot;I am super tired.&quot;
oogalialmost 8 years ago
I used to repeat this statement, but a few years of the current pattern, I disagree.<p>(I&#x27;m going to generalize for UNIX systems, apologies in advance)<p>Your traditional systems engineers are well versed in the ways of UNIX, but that does not automatically qualify them to wear the DevOps hat.<p>And vice versa. Systems and DevOps are two different sides of the house.<p>There is an entire tooling set that someone with the DevOps attribute needs to be aware of (CI&#x2F;CD, tools that enable code review, etc), how they tie into the tools that the developers use, and how to troubleshoot when these things break down.<p>You, Systems Engineer, will be called when someone can&#x27;t run &quot;npm install&quot; and an ERRNO message scrolls down the screen. While it could be something as innocent as a missing header file from an external dependency, it&#x27;s still on you to rapidly troubleshoot and resolve.<p>You also need someone with UNIX and networking infrastructure chops. Someone who is familiar with a how to generate and read a packet capture, or maybe even use strace.<p>You, DevOps, will be asked why does it take forever-and-a-half to run &#x27;ls&#x27; in a directory containing 10,000 files. Scratch that, you will asked to make it faster.<p>It&#x27;s unreasonable to ask either of these folks to stretch and cover the other role, it results in a lot of resentment in how they&#x27;re expected to do &quot;two jobs&quot; as well as complaints from developers that the DevOps&#x2F;Systems Engineer&#x27;s priorities and timelines don&#x27;t line up with their own.<p>Worse, you&#x27;ll see abominations (a relative viewpoint) because everyone knows their tools the best. To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.<p>I&#x27;ve seen automated DNS failover triggered via Jenkins, and I&#x27;ve seen automated code deployment triggered via cron on a 5 minute schedule.<p>DevOps is more than automation, it&#x27;s about enabling developers to rapidly iterate in a sensible way that doesn&#x27;t cause too much wake around a growing startup, an already functioning business, or a fast moving behemoth.<p>It&#x27;s about enabling operations to rapidly provision new applications, monitor existing applications, properly perform capacity planning, and create repeatable infrastructure ...repeatedly.<p>And it&#x27;s about both developers and operations coming together to onboard new employees into the environment in a short timeframe, so they can become productive.<p>This is all not to say that DevOps and traditional Systems Engineers + Network Engineers should live on different teams. Ideally, they&#x27;re all on the same team, with different roles, and plenty of communication and cross-training.
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jasodealmost 8 years ago
I was thinkging about that Mike Dilworth quote: <i>&quot;DevOps is a culture, not a role! The whole company needs to be doing DevOps for it to work.&quot;</i><p>It&#x27;s one of those kinds of statements that at first glance, looks really insightful and invites the head nodding up &amp; down in agreement.<p>However, thinking about it some more, that type of quote can be applied to <i>anything</i>.<p>&quot;Compliance is a culture not a role. Everyone from the CEO to the janitor should be aware of legal compliance. Having a compliance department is wrong.&quot;<p>&quot;Security is a culture not a role. Every employee should create quality passwords and follow proper encryption procedures, ...&quot;<p>&quot;Marketing is a culture not a role...&quot;, &quot;Design is a culture not a role...&quot;, &quot;&quot; etc, etc. Every employee should know&#x2F;do everything. If you have a separate marketing team and design team, your company has failed.<p>Yes, I can see where one ideal of devops is to &quot;break down silos&quot; and therefore, having a set of programmers who specialize in that is &quot;recreating the silo&quot; which is a contradiction. On the other hand, I can see the opposite view: if a company wholeheartedly embraces &quot;devops&quot;, they will acknowledge that by having <i>a team that focuses on devops</i>. If you&#x27;re a Google paying a programmer like Jeff Dean $500k+ a year, you really don&#x27;t want him working on Chef&#x2F;Puppet scripts instead of Tensorflow research. At a more advanced level of skills above Ansible&#x2F;Docker automation is the SRE (Site Reliabity Engineers) which has a lot of overlap[1] with Devops focused engineers.<p>A specialization in devops seems inevitable especially for larger companies that exceed 10 people. In short, I&#x27;m not sure why &quot;devops&quot; in particular has to rigidly adhere to Heinlein&#x27;s <i>&quot;specialization is for insects&quot;</i>.[2]<p>As for other comments saying it&#x27;s <i>&quot;title inflation&quot;</i>, I&#x27;m confused as to the source of that sentiment. The &quot;devops engineer&quot; doesn&#x27;t seem like a glamorous tile similar to <i>&quot;I&#x27;m CEO, bitch&quot;</i>[3]. There are no &quot;50 Shades of Grey&quot; movies where the female lead gets weak at the knees at the mere mention of &quot;devops programmer&quot;. The <i>&quot;sanitation engineer&quot;</i> euphemism of <i>&quot;garbageman&quot;</i> I understand as inflation but &quot;devops engineer&quot; seems like a sideways or neutral label. I&#x27;m mystified by the outrage over this programming label.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Site_reliability_engineering#DevOps_vs_SRE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Site_reliability_engineering#D...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Competent_man" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Competent_man</a><p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?q=&quot;i%27m+ceo%2C+bitch&quot;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?q=&quot;i%27m+ceo%2C+bitch&quot;</a>
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dkarapetyanalmost 8 years ago
Problem with &quot;culture&quot; is everyone has their own variation of it.
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jcahill84almost 8 years ago
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
godmodusalmost 8 years ago
Linux basement monkey&#x2F;Sysadmin supporting a dev Team and soon clients, here!<p>I dont care about nomenclature. I chose my weapons, and i can do fine with them; jenkins, artifactory, puppet, docker, vagrant and ammonite. All strung together using scala and bash scripts. Github MDs for docs and svn because it was there and the lads and ladies here like it.<p>Anyone can choose a stack. They just have to get good at it.<p>VALAR MORGHULIS!