TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

134 pointsby datawalkealmost 15 years ago
Over the past year I have been working for a local startup, in the United States, as the Jack-of-all-trades. We offer a product specialized to a fairly niche industry that is doing fairly well. In the past year we haven gone from 2 to 75 clients, gaining around 3 clients per week in the past two months. The product typically nets $5,000/yr per client. The product itself is web-based running off of an opensource CMS.<p>For the first 10 months I was the only person in the office doing work ~9 hours a day. From client setup, to design, to code and deployment I did it all. Twice a week I would be joined by the other 3 part-time guys who would do what they could in their 4 hours they had. Besides myself and the other team members the founder would do sales two to three days a week part time. Now a year in we have eight full time team members (5 Dev, 1 Sales, 1 CS). My role in the company has now taken on the Jack-Of-All-Trades plus the management of these other team members. Which I consider to be a great accomplishment for myself and I am proud of. However one factor in all of this has not changed in the past twelve months: compensation.<p>I was never a fussy person about money, especially when it came to startups. (I was in two other startups prior to this one.) I understand that you must bootstrap and try to be as frugal and agile as possible in the start. However a year in, and I am still making around $500/week. Which, in the beginning was great. However over the past year I have moved out, bought a car (out of need, the other died), gotten married, and have had a child. (With a second one on the way.) The other two major factors are: no benefits, and the founder seems to refuse to officially employ me (or anyone else in the company.). He still gives all of us a 1099. Yet, he treats us like employees. We have required working times, usually 8AM - 6PM, we only get a half hour lunch with no other breaks, and are on-call 24-7. Honestly, those items don't even bother me <i>that</i> much. However what does is that if I am one minute late from my 30 minute lunch, the founder will immediately call me asking where I am. If I happen to arrive at work a minute or two late I get a lecture. If I don't answer a call, on a weekend, I get a talk about availability. And if I am sick, I am required to work from home for the day. (I was in the hospital and still required to work.) That is what really gets me upset about this situation. I am fairly sure what he is doing is illegal with the 1099 issue. But it really upsets me that for all of the work and dedication that I have put in, that I can't get cut a break once or twice.<p>I am unsure how many of you are in a similar situation or even care. I honestly am not looking for any sympathy on this however I am seeking advice. Two weeks ago a new-hire and I went out for lunch and he asked me about the 1099 situation and asked what he should do. I told him to take some of the money out of his check to save for taxes. He said something to the degree of "But I only make $500/week!". I am not exactly sure why that made me lose my cool. Ever since then I have felt that the founder has not only been using me, but also the rest of the team. And I am letting this issue get to me. I spend each day now hating what I am doing because I have this feeling. I know the easiest answer may be: Well why not just talk to the founder? And I have.<p>The response is always the same: "We can't do that right now."(Benefits/Employ) "Remember I haven't even paid myself yet for any of this!"(Compensation) "It's cheaper for <i>you</i> if we do it this way!" (1099) And he won't budge.<p>I have been doing web work since I was nine. This is my passion in life. I spend all the time I can perfecting my craft and trying the best I can to stay current. I've never cared about money in the past, but the time has come where I have to. I hate myself for letting this job get to me to the point where it makes me burnt out on my passion.<p>This leaves me in the position of asking myself what to do now. My gut, and my wife, is telling me to begin looking for other jobs. Any advice? (And thank you for taking the time to read this over, I deeply appreciate it.)

47 comments

patio11almost 15 years ago
I realize that feelings of loyalty to an employer can skew one's perspective on things. (Oh boy, do I.) You need to hear someone say this, so I'll be a bit blunt:<p>1) You are being drastically underpaid relative to your market worth.<p>2) The fact of you being underpaid will cause material hardship for your wife and children.<p>3) Your boss is exploiting you. Illegally, to boot.<p>4) Your boss will not stop exploiting you.<p>5) You are being used as a tool to justify the exploitation of other people.<p>Don't "begin looking for other jobs." Mentally commit yourself to quitting, and to negotiating (you CAN negotiate, it isn't evil) a salary commensurate with your worth at your next position. You are a working professional. It is standard to receive fairly generous benefits, including but not limited to healthcare. Should you not receive benefits, you get paid an absurd amount of money to purchase them yourself. $2,000 a month does not even approach the ballpark of what employees like that cost.
评论 #1446054 未加载
评论 #1446070 未加载
评论 #1446550 未加载
评论 #1446472 未加载
coffeemugalmost 15 years ago
I mean no offense when I say this, but you're a great example of a "smart but clueless" employee dishonest startup founders prey on. At $500/week, you are making $26,000/year. Assuming you're a good developer (and now manager), you could probably pull in $120,000 working for Google or Facebook, which means you're losing $94,000/year (!) in opportunity cost (not even counting health benefits or other minor perks). You said nothing about equity, but assuming you will own 1% of the company after four years, and assuming the company exits for $50mil, your equity will be worth $500k, while you could have earned $376k working a stable job (again not counting health insurance, plus Facebook gives equity too). Considering that a potential exit opportunity is associated with large risk, the expected value of working for such a startup is miniscule, compared to opportunity cost.<p>You are <i>not</i> acting to your own advantage financially or emotionally. One option you have is to renegotiate your salary with the founder, and considering how hard it is to find great people, and how little he pays you, I have a strong feeling he'll budge. But if you have options (and it's your market now), do you really want to work for someone who has no ethical standards?<p>BTW, we're hiring: www.rethinkdb.com/jobs.<p>EDIT: just read your comment that you do not have any equity. Run, don't walk.
评论 #1446178 未加载
alain94040almost 15 years ago
1. This is abuse. You know it (otherwise you wouldn't have asked). What you didn't realize is how bad it is. It's VERY bad.<p>2. Find another job. This boss is hopeless, you can't fix it.<p>3. If you want to have fun, quit and tell him that you want to reclassify all the 1099 income as salary. He'll be liable for all kinds of social security stuff, he'll be in deep trouble with the other devs... That would be a major threat to him.<p>I don't particularly recommend an actual lawsuit, because the money you'd gain from it is so small based on your salary anyway. Also be aware that making such a threat would be extremely disruptive to him, as it would sink his business. So he may resort to more illegal schemes to fight back. Therefore it's probably not worth it - move on!<p>And please blog about it. Other people in your situation need to know about this. Include specific numbers, it helps!
hgaalmost 15 years ago
The other comments have covered almost all of what I'd say with these exceptions:<p>This company will stay alive until someone drops a dime to the IRS, at which point they'll reclassify everyone as a W-2 employee and demand income tax and FICA withholding from the boss, with interest and penalties. Unless he's put a lot in the bank from his exploitation of you all, he's not going to be able pay this (pity that he's <i>personally</i> liable for this; whatever the corporate structure is, this pierces the corporate veil).<p>You want to get out before this happens or before the IRS figures it out in some other way.<p>When you give notice he will almost certainly threaten you; it would be by far the best to ignore it (don't escalate, who knows how crazy he might get, ADDED: and it's best to keep in reserve, e.g. see the next paragraph), but if you can't ignore it you could always say "Be grateful I'm not reporting you to the IRS...."<p>If he seriously threatens you WRT to your non-compete, point out his vulnerability WRT the IRS. Unless and until he converts his employees to W-2 status (and I suppose pays his back due withholding), he's exquisitely vulnerable there.<p>As some have noted, don't bother to sue. At best you'd receive a pittance, per the above you might end up trying trying to collect from a bankrupt company/the owner. What you really need is closure, getting away from this bad situation which is no doubt slowly poisoning your attitudes towards work, upper management, etc.
elbrodeuralmost 15 years ago
Damn. After reading your post and the comments I want to emphasize a few things:<p>- You are being screwed. This has been amply covered. - You are worth your weight in gold. If you really work 10 hours a day, hang out with your family then work into the late night... you are every CTO/VP of Engineering's wet dream. - You have rights. The law, in many places, is built to protect people like you from exploitative situations like this. Just looking at a glance, it seems like you could - if you so chose - bring this guy to court and walk away with a more equitable amount of compensation [INTERNET CAVEAT MACHINE ALERT: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.] - You deserve better. With your work ethic and your attitude I hope the next group of people you work with give you your dues
评论 #1446183 未加载
brmorealmost 15 years ago
A couple of thoughts from a bootstrapper:<p>1) If you were going to get equity you would have it already. It would have been a condition of your employment, in writing. Anything else is empty promise, as I fear you are beginning to discover.<p>2) Even if you HAD equity, that equity is WORTHLESS until the company is sold or goes public. Equity only has value at exit or if the company is going to pay some sort of dividend. From the sound of things, both are unlikely.<p>3) I know you feel like you are invested in this company, that you deserve better ... and you do. That loyalty that you feel to the company does not appear to be returned. As an employer, that is a massive failure. One of the true perks of being a bootstrapper is that I am empowered to give people the "breaks" that make my place fun to work at and family friendly.<p>I think that it is time for you to move on. Follow mmaunder's advice carefully, especially the part about not talking about ANYTHING you're planning with co-workers. At best your co-workers may unintentionally break your confidence, and at worst will do so in an attempt to curry favor.
brown9-2almost 15 years ago
Everyone else has already said how abusive this is, and hit the nail on the head with it, so I won't add to it, but I would like to say one thing:<p>You are worth far more as an employee than the meager salary and horrible relationship this guy has given you. Until you realize this, you will continue to be abused by future employers. You'll only be treated as well or as poorly as you let people treat you.<p>Hell, I am a fulltime employee with great benefits and a great salary, and I feel loyal to my company and team, but if my boss told me I needed to work from the hospital, I would tell him I was resigning immediately.<p>You need to stand up for yourself.
评论 #1446474 未加载
mmaunderalmost 15 years ago
There are plenty of examples of entrepreneurs cajoling employees into working for little or no pay, sometimes with a false promise of stock options which are a tiny fraction of outstanding stock. But this is one of the worst I've heard.<p>I'm sure the other comments from the smart folks who hang out on HN will echo the above. So I'm going to suggest a strategy for you that is as exploitative as your boss is being:<p>1. Don't tell him you're leaving.<p>2. Don't tell anyone you work with you're leaving. I know you feel lonely, need moral support, safety in numbers and all that. But DON"T. You need to take care of your family so it's time to put on your game face.<p>3. Start networking with other developers in your city or the city you want to end up working in. Also, meet with recruiters, employers, even investors in the kinds of businesses where you want to work. But the most important group for you to network with is your peers i.e. other web developers. They are your best route to your next job.<p>4. DO NOT tell anyone about your sad story. It may make you feel better, but people tend to shy away from any sign of weakness. It will not help you and it will hurt your chances of getting another job. Come up with a generic story and never go off message.<p>5. Don't EVER disclose what your current (soon to be former) salary is. It will cause your next employer to "level you" and also under-pay you. Again, come up with a generic (but true) story and never go off message.<p>6. Keep interviewing, go to second or third interviews and actually LAND A JOB before you even mention a hint of what you're doing. No matter how close you are to signing with your next employer, don't get over confident or smug and disclose what you're doing until the deal is done.<p>7. Once you actually have another job, give your boss notice both in writing and from a personal email account that you will continue to have access to once you leave your company. Be brief and to the point. Don't get emotional. Use as few words as possible.<p>Now, about that generic story about your current/former position. It needs to project a positive "employable" image that looks strong and makes people want to hire you. Something like "I've had a huge amount of fun in my current job, but I feel I've outgrown the company. I enjoy working with my colleagues and the work is challenging and fun but I'm ready for my next big challenge." Practice the message on a few people you're talking to and let it evolve until it rolls naturally off the tongue and is giving you the body language you want to see from the people you're talking to.<p>Employers or recruiters will ask you directly about your current salary. Simply say "Unfortunately I can't disclose that information." They're sales guys and they will push but politely stonewall. It will only hurt you badly by disclosing it. You either won't get the job because they'll smell the stench of death, or you'll get an awful deal.<p>The one hole in this plan is the reference you may need at your next position. They may want to call up your current employer and ask for one. You could just be honest at this point and say that he doesn't know you're leaving yet so you don't want them to contact him until you've given notice. This actually makes you look stronger because you have a current job. You're not unemployed and looking.<p>As a general bit of guidance in negotiating:<p>"Never pass up an opportunity to say nothing." ~Robert Heinlein<p>"Never let anyone outside the family know what you're thinking." ~The Godfather<p>It's time for you to take care of the most important people in your life: Your family. So put on your war face and go for it! Good luck!!<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6vHOR8lzTg" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6vHOR8lzTg</a>
评论 #1448249 未加载
评论 #1447063 未加载
评论 #1446302 未加载
mattchewalmost 15 years ago
Lots of good advice here. One thing I would emphasize: think about how you ended up in this (rotten) situation and what you can change about yourself to make sure it doesn't happen again.<p>You seem to have an extreme case of nice guy syndrome. You don't want to get into a conflict with your boss and you are highly willing to sacrifice yourself to meet his expectations. My guess is you would feel almost physically ill at the idea of "letting someone down" who was "counting on you".<p>You need to get over that, at least somewhat. If you don't set boundaries, if you don't have a notion of where <i>your</i> wants and needs are <i>more important</i> than what others want and need from you, you'll always be overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated. Nobody respects a pushover, and there are a lot of guys who will use them up mercilessly.<p>Did I read that you're only 21? If so, hey, you've got lots of time to get this sorted out. But you might as well start now. :)<p>Closing thoughts: Get out as soon as possible--there's a lot of ways you could go about this. Don't try to "get even", just cut your losses. Don't do anything unethical on the way out. Do not trust your boss if he starts making promises of change or reform. As soon as possible, start saving money and get a cushion built up. You'd be in a much better position now if you weren't living paycheck to paycheck. Good luck.
sliverstormalmost 15 years ago
Just to give you an idea of where you stand pay-scale wise, I am a student employed part-time. I make about the same as you during breaks when I have the time to put in full-time hours.<p>You are making student money for professional hours.
评论 #1446557 未加载
评论 #1446987 未加载
rkallaalmost 15 years ago
datawalke,<p>I haven't gotten a chance to read some of the other replies yet, but here is the brass tax: Your time at this company is done.<p>You know it is too; the language of your post says so.<p>For more clarification: 1. Your "boss" (I put that in quotes because no one needs to be your boss and he sounds like a tool) will never give you more money and will not care if you step out on the company.<p>2. Your "boss" WILL likely threaten you when you go to say you are leaving; ignore it. Tell him that is "unfortunate" and then leave. Give a proper notice, like 2-4 weeks to avoid any nasty claims. Please note that he will make those last 2-4 weeks as unpleasant as possible for you.<p>3. Move on. You have developed an amazing skill set, both from the tech side as well as the business side. Seeing and <i>knowing</i> a startup can succeed from the ground up like this.<p>You don't have so much time on this planet that you need to waste it. This guy is never going to "get better" or change, just step forward and leave this nonsense behind.<p>Forget the money, forget the bad feelings. Just push forward.
patrickgzillalmost 15 years ago
At the very least, if you are paid with 1099, be sure to document a lot of your expenses, such as all mileage used to travel, meals you paid for with another person where you discussed business, etc. Find a decent but cheap accountant who has experience with small businesses and they will at least help you greatly reduce your tax burden.<p>Oh yes, you are being exploited, plan to get out and make a huge amount more once you find a better position.
forintialmost 15 years ago
To put your salary in perspective, it would be reasonable (not great) in most of Brazil, but terrible in São Paulo or Rio de Janeiro.<p>So you definitely got a bad deal.
评论 #1446455 未加载
apowellalmost 15 years ago
Since you are an independent contractor and not an employee, did you sign a contract stating that all your work was a "Work For Hire"? If not, then you likely own the copyright to all the work you've created -- which means that while your boss may have a legitimate license to use the work you've created to date, he doesn't have the right to create derivative works (read: modify the software) or sell copies of the work.<p>You may find these articles interesting: <a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-29953.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-29953.html</a> <a href="http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/ownership.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/ownership.html</a><p>If you were an employee on a W2 then this wouldn't be an issue -- your work would be a "Work For Hire" by default.<p>Your boss has created a legally perilous situation for himself. If you're a contractor, then he likely doesn't own the software he thinks he does. If you're an employee, then he owes a lot of taxes.<p>So if you're ready to burn a bridge, here's an idea. Find an attorney who will take your matter on contingency -- many will do a no-fee consult to see if there's a case. What you want to do is license your code to your former boss (the code he thinks he owns already) for a reasonable but substantial one-time sum. Low to mid five figures doesn't seem unreasonable to me.<p>And as everyone else has said, find a new job. If you're looking for contract work and you know CodeIgniter, email me (in my profile).
starkfistalmost 15 years ago
You're fucked but this type of situation is not uncommon.<p>This is how most smallish PR agencies, "digital agencies" and other sorta technical tangential "media" related companies in NYC operate.<p>You should just get any other sane job as quickly as possible and regroup. Working at Trader Joe's would pay as much and be less of a headache. If you can do any sort of web programming at any capacity you can make 70-120 grand in NYC. I don't know much about PA, but I know there are at least <i>some</i> decent jobs in Pittsburgh.
jteoalmost 15 years ago
You're talented and hardworking. Stop taking this crap and ask him to meet your reasonable demands or leave.<p>I'm sure someone on HN here would be more than glad to hire you for another startup.
评论 #1446220 未加载
评论 #1446105 未加载
tommy255almost 15 years ago
ABUSE. Here's how it works in a /real/ startup (I know, because I just went through this):<p>At hire, I ask founder "what do you think your exit looks like?" He puts it in terms of equity meaning for employees, "I am aiming for at least enough for each employee to purchase a nice home in this area."<p>A month after hire, at the first scheduled board meeting, I am granted options worth 0.5% of equity in the company, vesting over 4 years (I'm around the 12th employee). I am paid a salary commensurate with the rest of the industry in the area, as well as given full health coverage.<p>After about 2 years, the company is sold, making my 0.5% worth <i>almost exactly what he said it would be worth</i>, enough to purchase a nice home with cash outright.<p>Your founder is exploiting you. Don't dawdle dealing with this until you are no longer essential. You should lay it out for him, exactly as-is: you get your equity grant <i>and</i> a pay raise immediately, or you are walking.<p>Keep in mind, your founder might be trying to exploit you another way, too: he may not be planning an exit at all, or for a very long time. Meaning, equity is worthless (as long as he retains ownership). If he's making a lifestyle business out of this, equity is a big 0. Don't let him grant you equity but keep your wages at stupid levels.
exitalmost 15 years ago
start-ups are only start-ups to people who hold equity. to you it's just a company.
chrisclark1729almost 15 years ago
That seems rough. I'm actually going through a similar (albeit not as extreme) situation, which is why I'm at home on a Saturday night trying to generate leads for my freelance business.<p>Two major points from me:<p>First, you shouldn't get angry. You're there of your own volition and have to make the best of your situation. I know it's rough to hear, but getting angry will just waste your time and make it harder to be proactive about improving your situation. I need to remind myself of this constantly.<p>Second, I cannot attest to the legality of what's happening within your company. However, it would seem that if the founder is such a tyrant then many people would defect (clients as well as employees).<p>It seems like you could start a competitor business which serves the companies clients better than they are being served now. Who knows, any illegal behavior might nullify a non-compete clause (I am not a lawyer so please verify).<p>At any rate, best of luck. I do believe that businesses who don't value their employees pay for it in the long run so hopefully these things work out.<p>Short term, try reaching out to some people for freelance work. It's probably the best and quickest way to raise your income.
评论 #1446061 未加载
kochbeckalmost 15 years ago
The really unfortunate things about your situation are:<p>1. You're probably legally misclassified as a contractor rather than a full-time employee. You should read IRS Rule 87-41 to understand why that is, but the really telling part is that you're carefully managed as to work down to the minute. Dead giveaway - you're an employee.<p>2. Since you're clearly an employee, you're subject to the protections of FMLA. My favorite nickname for FMLA is the "F*ing Leave Me Alone" Act. If you're hospitalized and your employer knows it, it's really unnecessary to invoke FMLA to receive its protections. Your employer violated it by requiring you to work while incapacitated.<p>3. Because you're misclassified, you're probably paying self-employment tax, so you're getting screwed coming and going.<p>4. Your employer is too lazy to figure out how to get benefits for small firms. Going to a trade association like the AeA would easily get you access to insurance at a good rate. I assume he's covered through his spouse, and, as such, doesn't need coverage. So he's letting you hang.<p>IANAL, but I've been an exec who has had to walk in and clean up quite a few shops doing illegal things like this. Here are some options.<p>A) Just leave. Easier said than done, obviously. Also, he almost certainly owes you back overtime as well as back taxes that he didn't deposit consistent with the IRC.<p>B) Contact your state's version of the Labor Board. Explain the situation, and see if they're able to take administrative action on your behalf. This might be a good option for you, because these actions are usually sealed, and they'll order the employer to provide null references in the future.<p>C) Get a lawyer and sue. This can get very messy very quickly, and the real downside of it is that since your pay rate is only about $12.50/hr, even if a court awarded you a year's salary, an attorney on contingency would take half of it, and you'd still be boned. Also, future employers have a way of finding out about employee lawsuits, and it makes you somewhat more unemployable since there's nothing that says they can't discriminate against you based on your past history of litigating against employers.<p>Now, an interesting side option is that I suspect that you don't have an ironclad Intellectual Property and Inventions Assignment agreement with the company, given that he's a management slob. Odds are that it's buried in your contractor agreement which is, itself, a piece of fiction. There might be a severability clause in it, but I bet a judge would vacate the entire agreement if given the chance. That means that you possibly OWN the intellectual property of the company. Which is to say, in effect, that you own the core asset of the company since the IP and the client list are probably its only assets.<p>I can't speak for you to say whether you WANT to own this company's core asset, and certainly if you owned the IP and licensed it back to the founder, you'd have the joy of having to continue working with him for as long as that went on. But since the company is successfully signing customers and is turning over about $400k a year, that may well be a lucrative path to pursue.<p>Anyhow, the way you'd look into that is to contact the local branch of the nearest major municipality's bar association. Almost all of them have a referral service, and it's usually cheap or free. An attorney will probably give you an hour or so to go over the case and figure out if it's a good idea to act or just jump ship.<p>I wish you luck, and I hope your next employer appreciates you more than your current one does.
评论 #1446462 未加载
评论 #1446402 未加载
评论 #1446822 未加载
lkrubneralmost 15 years ago
I am confused by this:<p>"and I am still making around $500/week. Which, in the beginning was great. However over the past year I have moved out, bought a car (out of need, the other died), gotten married, and have had a child. (With a second one on the way.)"<p>Why would you have 2 children if you are making $500 a week? Does your spouse make a lot of money? Do you live in one of the developed countries, or a 3rd world country?<p>I'm having a hard time figuring out how it could be rational to have 2 kids while making $500 a week. And why have children at all if you are working at a startup? Most of my friends follow the rule that startups are what you try while you are single, but if you have kids then you should try to find something more stable.
评论 #1446486 未加载
评论 #1446466 未加载
hippichalmost 15 years ago
I hope you got some valuable experience here. Some bad, some good. Some development, some software, etc. Be abused and say "No" - is GREAT experience too. You are set here. It's definitely no reason to work for such compensation.<p>1) Silently find a new place to work. (there is no reason to negotiate with your current employer, since he wont be able to raise compensation 4 times and give you all other stuff for sure) 2) Tell founder that you are leaving in 1-4 weeks. 3) Tell him why you are leaving. 4) Tell him that he have option to hire freelancers (you are freelancer now accordingly to way he pays you) on oDesk.com, elancer.com, etc sites. He will get really good quality on these sites and in the same time these $500/wk wont be abuse to these people.<p>I mean, if you are really good, and it looks like you are, you should fight for much better compensation/results for your - you have wife and kids now!!! And in the same time if your employer can't pay enough you - he should rebuild his business to outsource some work to other countries to not abuse local people.
datawalkealmost 15 years ago
Update: Thank you all for your help and blunt honesty in this matter -- I deeply appreciate it. Taking your advice I am wrapping up a few final projects I have outstanding and updating my resume. I will keep you all posted on the outcome of the situation with a blog post that I will post to HN later this month. Thank you again for your time, advice, and support.
tworatsalmost 15 years ago
Unless you have significant equity, you need to <i>immediately</i> negotiate higher pay or leave.<p>* $500/week is ridiculous. You are way underpaid.<p>* There is no upside for you:<p><pre><code> * Say the company is successful and starts generating a lot of revenue: you'll have to crawl your way from $500/week to a decent salary. New employees will immediately make more than you. * If the company is sold, the founder gets rich and you get nothing. </code></pre> You've accomplished significant milestones: you've taken a product from idea to production, and you are now managing a team. Play this up in your next interviews, you've earned it. Get yourself a better position with better pay, in line with the skills you've honed and proven over the last year.<p>Btw, I've founded 3 startups so I'm very familiar with what it's like to pay people little. In every case the counter to the low pay was significant equity - if the startup makes it, you get a share of the prize. If you're not getting equity, you're getting used, plain and simple.
JVerstryalmost 15 years ago
Hi,<p>I have a Master in Human Resource Management (on top of a IT degree and an MBA). For me, your case is a clear case of tacit abuse.<p>If the product you are working on is now selling, then it means you MUST have some good skills somewhere. Fact is, you are the one who has the power, but it seems to me (and I don't mean to be rude) that you don't have the guts to use it.<p>If I were you, I would start searching for other positions offering a much better salary for your skills. Then, come back to your company and ask for a decent raise. If you don't get it, move to the next job and don't feel guilty about it. They are not treating you decently.<p>You have a kid and a family to take care of.<p>I understand the need for sacrifice in start-up and the need for long-term commitment, but it still does not add up to me. It does not seem like you have shares in this company. If it becomes very successful, will you have a piece of the pie, I mean FOR SURE? Or are there just mere promises?<p>Take care of yourself and push back on this crappy situation.<p>That is my advise.
MaysonLalmost 15 years ago
While it is not something I would suggest in most situations, this guy seems close enough to pond scum to deserve it. (Personal note: at my first programming job, decades ago, I was paid from the owner's wife's personal checking account for the last few months, after one of my company paychecks bounced. While I'm sure there was some tax fraud going on there, I didn't see any reason to cause the guy any more grief than he was already going through.)<p><i>After</i> securing further employment, turn him in to the IRS, with as much supporting documentation as possible.<p>See <a href="http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/news/20030221a1.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/news/20030221a1.asp</a> for a bit more info on the IRS bounty program.<p>If you would feel guilty about the impact on the other "contractors" at the company, share any eventual payoff with them.
ultramundanealmost 15 years ago
I am a close personal friend of datawalke. I consider myself a capable (just capable) programmer and my abilities pale in comparison to his.<p>My primary knowledge is of philosophy. What this has allowed me to do is come to the conclusion that programming is an extension of datawalke's very being. He doesn't just work as an IT guy. His very existence guarantees both his programming ability and its perpetual growth.<p>I know for a fact that he is grossly underpaid and devalued. What he hasn't mentioned is that even on top of this job he works frequently on side projects for clients who have never been dissatisfied (to my knowledge). I honestly believe that he simply sleeps less than everyone else as a solution to his lack of time.
criklialmost 15 years ago
I'm a founder and I'd like to throatpunch your employer. Everything that has been already said is true. What he's doing is illegal.<p>And hey, if the opensource CMS in question is Drupal, shoot me an email, I'm always on the prowl for good Drupallers.
评论 #1446504 未加载
评论 #1446499 未加载
Ben_Deanalmost 15 years ago
You need to have a new job. In so many ways. I got a sysadmin "internship" right out of college with a studio art degree (painting) and was make $3K a month. And for a company that I feel is extremely exploitative of its workers. I completely agree with everyone. You can feel completely entitled to making 4-5 times what you are, salaried with benefits. Also, your boss is obviously just an ass. Only someone on the megalomaniac end of the personality spectrum would be calling you to task for showing up a few minutes "late", especially when you are a contract worker.
gommmalmost 15 years ago
I would give him an ultimatum, either quit you job right now (since you're not an employee you don't even have to give a two weeks notice) or get 2 times your salary.<p>After that, regardless of the outcome start looking for another job, because once you have forced his hand like this the founder is likely to find a way to not need you anymore and fire you sooner or later...<p>Because he needs you, he's likely to agree to your terms (as long as you don't repeat it to another), and you'll be in a better financial position while looking for a new job
poundyalmost 15 years ago
The only way to get paid the correct amount you "really" deserve is to be a founder yourself. But it is definitely not the easy way.<p>The founder is clearly exploiting you, but he sure has justifications in his head. Something like, it was all my idea, I took the risk, it was my execution, etc.. etc.. I think you must negotiate with the founder. Basically a bit of everything that you just wrote above.
评论 #1447197 未加载
Maven911almost 15 years ago
Also another piece of advice...I would aim for at least 60k$ a year in your next job (but tell them 65-70k$) based upon your 2 years of experience and you are not in a major metropolitain area...but due to the fact that you do not have a completed degree, especially a university one, I would expect it to be harder to negotiate salary terms.
评论 #1447575 未加载
dalorealmost 15 years ago
As one of the key early employees who took a pay cut to make things work you really should get stock or stock options.
thornadalmost 15 years ago
Trust your gut (and your wife) you will.<p>Then "...the universe will open doors where there were only walls." - Joseph Campbell
jisteralmost 15 years ago
&#62;&#62; I am still making around $500/week. Which, in the beginning was great.<p>No it is not. You are underpaid - exploited.<p>I am making $400/week (4 hours/day for 5 days/week) on my freelance and I am living in the Philippines. You are in the US and supposed to earn 4 - 5 times as much.
oceanicianalmost 15 years ago
Let people know which are of the world or states you are in, and perhaps they can provide employment for the whole of your team.<p>It sounds like you are very hard working, so anyone will be happy having you in their team.<p>Do you have equity in the company, that keeps you there?
评论 #1446241 未加载
AmberShahalmost 15 years ago
What everyone else said and also: GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT! If you MUST, ask for a raise to at least 80K per year but most likely he'll never respect you. Take your hard earned experience as a dev &#38; manager and go get a real job!
jesuinoalmost 15 years ago
I don't know if my comment is valuable, but in Brazil we have some good laws to protected the employee, but the salary isn't so high as yours, from outside Brazil. (sometime those laws work well)<p>Here, it would be illegal...<p>[]'s
midnightmonsteralmost 15 years ago
Which web technologies do you work with? Drop me an email or phone call. Contact information is at <a href="http://letterblock.com/" rel="nofollow">http://letterblock.com/</a> .
mgkimsalalmost 15 years ago
To chime in - get out. What the owner is doing is <i>illegal</i> as well as unfair.<p>As for not wanting his business to fail, I agree taking <i>intentional actions</i> to cause harm would be bad, but I suspect they'll cause themselves enough harm simply by you not being there soon after you leave.<p>From the other side of the table, I employed a handful of people in the early 2000s. We had a couple good years, and then a couple bad years. Got the point where the money wasn't coming in regularly, and I had some people stay well past the point where it was good for their own financial well-being. While I appreciated the loyalty (whether to me or solely to the clients, I'm not 100% sure) but I did tell them to leave if they could find something else, or take side work, or something.<p>I would never want to be in a position where I was doing what's happening to you to someone else. I've been in situations where I've been exploited, but not to this level, and it sucked, and I got the heck out as fast as possible once the reality set in.<p>I would suggest expanding the freelancing. You don't have much time <i>right now</i> cause you're working 50+ hours per week for someone else. It should not be hard to replace what is effectively a $10/hour job with some extra freelancing work. I've had a friend of mine recently jump from 'job' to fulltime freelance, and while he's not booked up 100% of the time, he's increased that hourly rate, so just to keep up with where he was before he doesn't need to bill full time.<p>Go back to your current freelancing clients, and explain that you'll be on the market soon. Ask if they have any extra work they need doing, ask them for referrals to other colleagues they may have who need what you do, and then ask them to be a reference. Preferably something in writing - a predone text file that you can use on your website and to include in your email marketing for new work.<p>Update your linkedin.com page, and hit up your network there for more work.<p>Finding work, especially as a freelancer, is very much about your network, and you have to curate that aspect of your life with intention and purpose. Happenstance and serendipity are great - they've brought some great things in to my life - but it's not enough. Hope is not a strategy. :) Start (re)developing your professional network <i>outside</i> of your current employment situation, and watch your freelancing grow.<p>Maybe freelancing only tides you over for a few months, and you manage to land another f/t job. Don't ever forget that you're still in charge of your own career and life. Your current situation should help drive that home for a long time, but don't dwell on it. Use it as motivation to build your professional network so that you never have all your eggs in <i>someone else's</i> basket again. Own multiple baskets. Even if you don't put eggs in any for long stretches, they're still <i>your</i> basket.<p>Best of luck to you, and I hope things turn around very quickly for you.
评论 #1446322 未加载
nearestneighboralmost 15 years ago
I think your mindset is that if you leave now, your boss wins (having underpaid you all this time). Right?
appl3staralmost 15 years ago
Get them to pay you right or get out. Maje sure we all know the name of the company - after you left.. :)
omousealmost 15 years ago
If you end up quitting, please name the company so that everyone else can avoid getting cheated.
jacquesmalmost 15 years ago
How come the asshole bosses always end up finding people that will 'take it' ?
sharemealmost 15 years ago
You probably already know the answer if you have talked to a tax accountant..if they set the hours than its employee and they need to withhold taxes.<p>First, find some other projects/gigs to cover your expenses and do not tell the startup.<p>Second, when those other gigs are secured ..spend $150 on a CPA that does tax work..have him compose a letter stating that under work conditions at startup that they need to state you as employee and withhold payroll taxes. Give cpa any docs that he needs to document this.<p>The purpose is not to force startup to do anything. it sot protect you and your family.<p>From now on, if firm sets working, hours, and has full quality control of the work than you need to only accept w-2 employee status.<p>Your local cpa will have a employee/ tax check list as far as conditions make it employee and which ones do not so ask for that.<p>if you cannot afford he $150 to $250 ask your local CPA state board or SBA office to give you a list of those CPAs that sometimes do free advice workshops on this.<p>And most important do not under any circumstances let the startup know your anger..just get the extra gigs so that you can get out of the situation.<p>S the project manager I am using know states, you have to care about the money as the right startups will than take that market rate of a freelancer(no not salary rate) and say well we can do 75% and pay rest in stock is that acceptable and as employee.
mkramlichalmost 15 years ago
This type of post brings out the best of HN.
jlgossealmost 15 years ago
I'm sure you're great, but I'm sick of seeing: "I have been doing web work since I was nine."<p>What's up with this? I was probably the most technology savvy kid to come out of my high school, and I'm still not even remotely close to saying something like this!<p>I bet that when you were 9, you couldn't even do most advanced algebra, let alone <i>real</i> web work.
评论 #1446260 未加载
评论 #1446307 未加载
评论 #1446212 未加载
评论 #1449276 未加载