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“Let her speak please”

995 pointsby devnonymousabout 8 years ago

60 comments

jasonshenabout 8 years ago
Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the &quot;let her speak please&quot; sounds very polite.<p>This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men. It&#x27;s one thing to have one panelist talk over another, but to have the moderator, who is explicitly in charge of facilitating a panel discussion, be the one to drown out a panelist is just unacceptable. Yes, &quot;not all men&quot; do this, but the fact that this continues to happen in such visible and public settings, where presumably people are on &quot;their best behavior&quot;, would suggest that it happens even more in more private situations. Research has shown that groups where speaking is more distributed are more successful at solving problems, and explicitly teams with more women are more successful: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2015&#x2F;01&#x2F;the-secret-to-smart-groups-isnt-smart-people&#x2F;384625&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2015&#x2F;01&#x2F;the-sec...</a><p>I will take this story as another reminder to be aware of situations where I might be dominating a conversation, and I hope you will too.
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token_throwawayabout 8 years ago
Ugh, I watched the video, jesus the host might be the least self-aware person who&#x27;s ever been asked to host anything. I was unreasonably annoyed listening to him.<p>Anyway I want to share something, made this throwaway account specifically for this. I&#x27;m the only female at my company, and a developer to boot. I&#x27;m assertive in general, I make sure I&#x27;m heard. In fact, I try to be hyper-aware of how much I&#x27;m talking in a meeting setting, just to be respectful of others. I also feel that I am virtually unaware of my gender at work. I&#x27;ve been lucky in that respect -- trust me, sexism in the world and sexism in STEM is real, and it&#x27;s not always easy being a female -- but I&#x27;m in agreeance with the author that intent matters, and generally that assumed sexist intent can get a bit dramatic. Whether my personality affects my perception, I can&#x27;t say.<p>I work with a lot of very introverted and quiet males -- and a small handful of overpowering, extraverted males. I&#x27;ve found myself doing this exact thing quite often. Weekly even. &quot;Let&#x27;s let him finish his point&quot;, &quot;I&#x27;m interested in hearing more from {quiet_guy}&quot;, &quot;{quiet_guy}, is {contribution_of_loud_guy} what you meant by that?&quot;, et cetera.<p>I would like to believe that if the panel person was a male, it would have elicited the same building irritation from the audience. Although, I&#x27;m less sure that someone would have spoken up. I think someone would have needed to feel personally antagonized in order to speak up, which is exactly what happened here.<p>Bit of a ramble, sorry. My bottom line is that we should all be looking out for those who speak up less, if we sense that those people are being out-talked. My feeling is that people in that category might be more female than not... but I&#x27;m also saying that it doesn&#x27;t matter either way.
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andaiabout 8 years ago
&gt; You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was rooted in sexism. Maybe I’m too naive, but I simply gave him the benefit of doubt that he was so excited by the newly-learned idea of the duality that he couldn’t resist, and that the same might have occurred had the panelist been a male instead of me. So it didn’t bother me.<p>...<p>&gt; Please understand that I’m not trying to say that sexism in science is a myth. It is real and we should all aspire to diminish it. But I am trying to say that it need not pose as much of an impediment as you might fear and that you might be in more control over its influence yourself than you might think. Just as you put up with long lines to see a great show, or with sore feet or mosquitos to have a great hike etc., the annoyance of otherwise abominable behavior diminishes in the larger perspective of doing something you really enjoy.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.facebook.com&#x2F;marilee.talkington&#x2F;posts&#x2F;10155051385188961?comment_id=10155053361413961&amp;comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D&amp;_rdc=1&amp;_rdr" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.facebook.com&#x2F;marilee.talkington&#x2F;posts&#x2F;1015505138...</a>
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ideonexusabout 8 years ago
If you see this kind of behavior in the workplace, I highly recommend the technique of &quot;echoing&quot; as a means of overcoming it. In meetings I&#x27;ve seen it happen many times where an introvert makes a brilliant point, which gets completely lost when some manager who likes to hear themselves talk follows them. When this happens, I find it incredibly powerful to raise my hand and say, &quot;I&#x27;d like to bring us back to [introvert&#x27;s] point that...&quot; The women in the Obama White House made this techique popular [1], and it&#x27;s extremely effective in getting quieter more thoughtful ideas the attention they deserve.<p>As an introvert myself, I support a workplace that is encouraging and respectful of women because that is a workplace respectful of introverts as well.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;powerpost&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;25&#x2F;how-a-white-house-womens-office-strategy-went-viral&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;powerpost&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;25&#x2F;...</a>
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birracervezaabout 8 years ago
The exaggeration of this post is infuriating. I saw the video, and while I do agree that Jim Holt was especially rude in asking questions and then start talking as soon as she started answering, that is all it is. Rudeness. Not sexism. He did it with the men too.
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masondixonabout 8 years ago
Everyone reading this please, please, please watch the video.<p>It is ridiculously not what it seems. I read the comments here, and the FB post and after watching it in full context you get such a different perspective.<p>And it is just as the lady on the panelist has said in her comment.<p>The moderator is trying to simplify things for the audience.<p>After introducing her he tries to create an analogy as to how to think about it and says:<p>&quot;I&#x27;m giving a very garbled caricature of it, you&#x27;re the expect, why don&#x27;t you tell us.&quot;<p>Why would he use self-deprecating language if he was being sexist? He is openly saying that she could explain it better.<p>He talks over her a few times, but he is in know way talking down to her, rather just trying to place everything in his overarching analogy which is the role of the moderator. To maintain a common thread running through the discussion.<p>Then he reframes it again, and concedes: &quot;I&#x27;m putting this in a provacative way. Please explain it to us properly.&quot;<p>Again, he is even acknowledging when he feels he is being provocative.<p>After the interruption:<p>&quot;That always happens to me...do I talk too much?&quot;<p>Which seems like he knows that he gets overly excited sometimes and talks to much.<p>Seriously people!
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dansoabout 8 years ago
The Observer has an article about this: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;observer.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;sexism-science-facebook-mansplaining&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;observer.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;sexism-science-facebook-mansplai...</a><p>The video of the event is here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.worldsciencefestival.com&#x2F;programs&#x2F;big-universe-bigger-questions&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.worldsciencefestival.com&#x2F;programs&#x2F;big-universe-bi...</a><p>edit: Youtube version, at the 1:02 mark where people apparently were getting irritated: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Er7qPv8jsZo?t=1h1m55s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Er7qPv8jsZo?t=1h1m55s</a>
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Tikiabout 8 years ago
Veronika Hubeny(the physicist who got interrupted) replied to the incident,<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;marilee.talkington&#x2F;posts&#x2F;10155051385188961?comment_id=10155053361413961&amp;comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;marilee.talkington&#x2F;posts&#x2F;1015505138...</a><p>Very humble woman.
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curiousgalabout 8 years ago
&gt;<i>he continued to talk over her and dominate the space for several minutes</i><p>&gt;<i>I&#x27;m still upset by the incredible sexism that has been demonstrated this afternoon</i><p>Now I feel bad for missing out on labeling every instance of a man being rude to me as sexism! &#x2F;s
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Houshalterabout 8 years ago
I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be &quot;assertive&quot;, than men. That is a stereotype, but sometimes there&#x27;s truth in stereotypes. I mean I recall studies that women are less likely to ask for raises or are worse at haggling.<p>So if a person is speaking over you and rambling on, perhaps a man is more likely to speak up or butt in at the first opportunity. The quote in the top comment sort of hints at this. That she didn&#x27;t feel as annoyed by his talking and so didn&#x27;t speak up. I haven&#x27;t watched the whole thing, but other comments mention he does this over male panelists as well.
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Quarrelsomeabout 8 years ago
he doesn&#x27;t interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out &quot;injustice&quot; and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you&#x27;re looking at the world through such a frame you&#x27;re gonna get false positives. Maybe this isn&#x27;t one but I feel a detailed and objective analysis might make it more close than the OP _feels_ it is through their frame that they view the world.<p>Did the host just fuck up or was it sexism? Maybe the host really loves her work and is read-up on it and got carried away? There are lots of possibilities. I&#x27;m not disagreeing with OP, I like that they chipped in. Everyone has the right to push around on their local environment to change it. I&#x27;m just wary of people viewing the world as a gender battle because it might turn it into more of a gender battle than it actually was.
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Klockanabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;m not sure that this has to do with her being a woman, everyone else on the panel have wikipedia pages while she doesn&#x27;t. In such a scenario there will obviously be a power differential irrespective of the genders involved.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;David_Albert" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;David_Albert</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;George_F._R._Ellis" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;George_F._R._Ellis</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Alan_Guth" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Alan_Guth</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Andrei_Linde" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Andrei_Linde</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Barry_Loewer" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Barry_Loewer</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Special:Search?search=Veronika+Hubeny" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Special:Search?search=Veronika...</a>
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macspoofingabout 8 years ago
I watched the video the other day and I did notice the Hubeny was not called a lot - part of the reason was that she was more introverted and soft-spoken then the other panelists and part of the reason was that the moderator monopolized the conversation - which is typical of the WCF where the moderator will try to contextualize and steer the discussion in a way that makes it broadly accessible (even to kids, who are the target audience as well).<p>I&#x27;ve seen panels moderated by Neil Degrasse Tyson and Lawrence Krauss and those guys are terrible because they really love to hear themselves speak and will monopolize the discussion.
glutamateabout 8 years ago
From <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vanityfair.com&#x2F;culture&#x2F;2012&#x2F;07&#x2F;jim-holt-why-does-the-world-exist" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vanityfair.com&#x2F;culture&#x2F;2012&#x2F;07&#x2F;jim-holt-why-does-...</a><p>&gt; Q: Bone to pick: your list excludes women.<p>&gt; Jim Holt: It wasn’t meant to be that way! I was going to include a Harvard physicist who’s not only a woman but she’s extremely attractive.<p>WTF?
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obstacle1about 8 years ago
What&#x27;s really interesting is that the author only became &#x27;boiling&#x27; with rage when this socially-unaware moderator talked over the woman on the panel, not when he talked over the other men.<p>This kind of behavior is extremely common in STEM, and happens to everyone. If you don&#x27;t talk with confidence, purpose, and animation, you&#x27;re going to get talked over by the alpha nerd of the group. Man, woman, or purple elephant. Problem? Yes. Sexism? No.
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unicornpornabout 8 years ago
Facebook posts are more or less unreadable to me without a Facebook login. This is what it looks like to me: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;ZQNexgi.png" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;ZQNexgi.png</a><p>Does anybody else outside Facebook space find it annoying?
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tomxorabout 8 years ago
I dipped in an out of the video hunting for this &quot;event&quot; a bit harder to find than I expected. Initially I didn&#x27;t realise who the moderator was, and eventually I realised this guy kept adding dumbed down clarifications to everything, unnecessarily annotating things, almost every time talking over someone who was in the middle of trying to make a point or explain something... Maybe deep inside he did have a sexist attitude, but when I found &quot;the event&quot; what I saw was just a worse versions of the same explanation hijacker in previous parts of the video, It was nowhere near as well defined exclusion as the post made out... It was fucking frustrating sure but memory is coloured with your feelings, and this video shows it.
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sonecaabout 8 years ago
It is hard and subjective to assess if the moderator behavior was just indiscriminately rude or sexism by mansplaining. That&#x27;s why I don&#x27;t expect the comments here to be as interesting and enlightening as for other common topics at HN.<p>But I would like to just point out what, I believe, it&#x27;s a strong signaling that it was sexism: the whole audience reaction to when the woman shouted: &quot;Let her speak please&quot;. There is a genuine, spontaneous and loud ovation. Contrast that with the fact that through the rest of the video, the moderator doesn&#x27;t act the same way to other panelists; and it makes clear to me that the whole audience was considering the moderator&#x27;s behavior inappropriate and motivated by her being a woman. So, for subjective assessments, there is some wisdom of the crowd worth considering (especially as this was not a &#x27;feminist&#x27; crowd or even a female-biased crowd, on the contrary, I believe).<p>Now, to give the moderator some credit, after some awkward moment where he does not know how to keep it cool, he does take the hint and shut up.<p>EDIT: I would like to give some more credit to the moderator. At the video moment that lorenzhs pointed out below (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Er7qPv8jsZo?t=1h1m55s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Er7qPv8jsZo?t=1h1m55s</a>), the moderator explicitly state that Veronika Hubeny was not given a chance to speak about her knowledge. This, I believe, is an indicator that the moderator is not a bad person and his sexism is not conscious or originated by strong believe that women are not as capable in the field as men. I still believe he is patronizing and is being sexist, but in a way that he can get the feedback and change his behavior, as he is not a sexist. He was being sexist, he is not one. My point is: he seems to be a nice person, not a villain, that is influenced by a sexist environment. And changing that environment should be our goal, not pointing fingers. As Marilee Talkington did, politely and publicly.<p>EDIT 2: After reading Hubeny&#x27;s comment I&#x27;m more in doubt if it was sexism. Actually, I&#x27;m more inclined to believe it was not sexism. As I said, it is a subjective call, and her opinion matters most than others as she is the subject and used to being surrounded by men in her profession. Her comment is very kind and smart also in itself, worth reading.
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asmosoinioabout 8 years ago
Since for some reason (flagging) this has fallen of the first page, I posted the Observer article also: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14505232" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14505232</a>
microcolonelabout 8 years ago
This only seems sexist if you think that people only speak when <i>allowed to speak</i>. People speak when they speak, the rules of politeness are universal, and she had every right to speak up, and every right to pipe down. She could have just as easily been a bit uncomfortable, or just more interested in listening. The host was overbearing on the whole conversation from what I see. There could be any number of reasons why the host might interrupt the string theorist; and the argument that it <i>must</i> be sexism is just <i>so</i> just-so.<p>I don&#x27;t see why people should be expected to all be equally sonorous, when clearly people are not equally interested in it.
_jcwuabout 8 years ago
Why do activists like these always have to write that they &quot;shake&quot;? I usually stop reading and taking them seriously.
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y0ghur7_xxxabout 8 years ago
If you want to know what happened by watching the video yourself, here it is: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Er7qPv8jsZo?t=3920" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Er7qPv8jsZo?t=3920</a>
jancsikaabout 8 years ago
I remember a sociologist once remarking that prejudice (racism in the case we were discussing) exists <i>quite</i> apart from an individual&#x27;s intentions.<p>Most of the comments here appear to assume that prejudice is determined solely (or mainly) by the moderator&#x27;s intentions-- hence the endless quests to somehow prove what is or isn&#x27;t lurking in the moderator&#x27;s soul.<p>That <i>seems</i> irrelevant in this case, but I haven&#x27;t read the relevant sociological literature so that&#x27;s all I can say.<p>Are there any sociologists here that can flesh this out (with citations)?<p>Edit: clarification
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jotadambalakiriabout 8 years ago
How is this sexism? As a quiet man that happens to me a lot too and I hate these kind of people.
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munificentabout 8 years ago
I don&#x27;t know if Holt behaved the way he did out of sexism, enthusiasm for the subject, generally liking the sound of his voice or what. Regardless, I think the narrative of this exchange between him, Hubeny, and Talkington can function as a nice morality play that most of us can learn from.<p>But I think it only works if we don&#x27;t jump demonize or defend Holt and try to simply use him to score points for our side. Instead, if I empathize for all of the characters, there&#x27;s something to be gained from each.<p>When I imagine myself in Holt&#x27;s shoes (which, to be honest, is unfortunately a little <i>too</i> easy for me to do), it&#x27;s a reminder to be more of a listener and less focused on filling silence or letting my own inner monologue take over. I&#x27;m overly sensitive to pauses in conversation and tend to rush to fill them. But some people are naturally quieter, more pensive, or have a different preferred cadence. It&#x27;s important to cater to them. This is true regardless of their gender, but is particularly true for women where society has trained them to be the conceding person when two people — deliberately or accidentally — start talking at the same time.<p>Hubeny handled the whole thing with remarkable grace, both during and after. She didn&#x27;t get irate on stage and tried to respond to Holt and go with the flow to keep things moving, even when she had every right to be frustrated. She certainly would have been justified in pushing back on him, but she demonstrated another important social skill, which is giving people some benefit of the doubt. Good engineers never forget about tolerances and safety factors and our social interactions need those too. We&#x27;re humans. We make mistakes. When others around us handle those tactfully, it helps the whole machine run smoother.<p>It is, of course, totally unfair when women find themselves having to do a disproportionate amount of this social lubrication. But that&#x27;s why it&#x27;s useful for me (a man) to empathize with her in this interaction. It helps remind me to pick up that role more than I probably do now.<p>And, then, of course, Talkington&#x27;s description is a perfect encapsulation of how frightening, but also important and rewarding it is to stand up for what you believe in. The applause she received afterwards shows that while most in the audience didn&#x27;t have the courage she had, at least most of them did have their <i>hearts</i> in the right place. That&#x27;s a sign of progress to me.
korijnabout 8 years ago
This reminds me an awful lot of Zimbardo&#x27;s talk on how we should encourage children to learn to speak&#x2F;act when the crowd does not.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ted.com&#x2F;talks&#x2F;philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil&#x2F;transcript" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ted.com&#x2F;talks&#x2F;philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_...</a>
overgardabout 8 years ago
It seems like the other perspective has been lost here. The host has now been publicly branded as a sexist on &quot;evidence&quot; that at best is ambiguous. To the people upvoting this: Shouldn&#x27;t claims like this that are extremely damaging to a persons reputation require more evidence?
justin_vanwabout 8 years ago
Like half of this was talking about how the male was not letting the female asking the question (the male sounds like a bad interviewer for sure), and the other half was about how everyone &#x27;literally applauded&#x27; what the author did. Sadly none of it was about the woman who was not allowed to speak or what she said... I get the point, the rest of the audience didn&#x27;t say anything, but on the other hand &#x27;literally shaking&#x27; is maybe not a reasonable response to someone being (probably inadvertently) rude, really no matter why the person is being rude.<p>I don&#x27;t know how to write this without sounding like I in any way would defend sexism in any form, I mean maybe I should show I&#x27;m not sexist by piling on the male on stage and breaking out the pitch-fork or something.
aaron695about 8 years ago
This is written straight out of Buzzfeed, why did it not stay flagged?<p>I wish people could stop supporting these articles about serious issues that are so emotive build purely to play on&#x2F;abuse human emotions? It just hurts every cause.<p>Veronika Hubeny on the other hand wrote a response very worthy of HN.
prbuckleyabout 8 years ago
Good on her for speaking up but I would postulate that minority groups gets talked over by the majority group and that this is not sexism. Should people try to be more mindful of the people around them? Absolutely, but jumping to the conclusion that it is sexism is just counter productive.<p>Anecdotally as a man any time I am in a group that has a majority of woman the men get talked over by the woman all the time. I grew up in a family that was a majority woman and the same thing happened all the time, I would say generally in social settings where one sex has the majority they tend to talk over the opposite sex and control the conversation. It is human nature. However we can and should be better then that but it is hard.
23inhouseabout 8 years ago
This video is great. I&#x27;m glad I watched it and as soon as I finish writing this I&#x27;ll be looking for more like it.<p>&quot;Let her speak please&quot;, there are some many things wrong with this, starting with live tweeting this panel&#x27;s discussion.<p>Just watch the video! There are so many more interesting and inspiring things to discuss. Listen to what they are saying. They are talking about the nature of reality and if it&#x27;s possible for us to understand it.<p>Edit: I just got to the point where the audience member yelled out. What a disgusting display, who do they think they are, they should &quot;check their privilege&quot;. This type of forum is not the place for aggressive behaviour like that. It&#x27;s not good enough.
MattBearmanabout 8 years ago
Having watched other parts of the video, I would say this was sexism.<p>While the moderator had a bad habit of talking too much and answering his own questions to all panelists, he didn&#x27;t talk over the other (male) panelists, he only seemed to do that to Veronika Hubeny.
Tech1about 8 years ago
I was at this event. Marilee was seated directly in front of my girlfriend and I (the stage &#x2F; panel and the back of Marilee&#x27;s head pictured: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;GEapw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;GEapw</a>). The interruptions were real. I was one of the men in Marilee&#x27;s facebook post making comments about the sexism. Immediately following Marilee&#x27;s comment, the entire place erupted with applause. On the way out, several people asked my GF if she was the one who made the comment, with one person saying &quot;That was the most important thing to happen here today&quot;.
differentViewabout 8 years ago
This guy seems like quite the blowhard. I do, however, need to know if he also does this to men. I&#x27;ve had a few co-workers that just talk on and on without letting other people get a word in. They do this to everyone.
adamseaabout 8 years ago
Throwing in my two cents: a) the intent of the moderator is less important, in this specific instance, than the systematic and structural sexism which we know to be present. Who knows, perhaps the moderator was secretly grateful because they were unconscious of the impact of their behavior? Perhaps not. Outcome is a more useful measure than intent here.<p>b) In a perfect world, if the same thing was happening to a man, I would hope someone would speak up for him as well. Not only was the authors behavior an example of feminism in action, we could also say it was an act of human decency.
paulmdabout 8 years ago
Knowledge of this social construct (that women are socially expected to be &quot;seen and not heard&quot;) is one of the simplest life-hacks for small-group interactions, because once you&#x27;re mindful of the dynamic it&#x27;s fairly obvious when someone is getting talked over.<p>It also applies equally well to other introverts, it&#x27;s just a good social rule in general. Let people finish their thoughts.<p>Most times people aren&#x27;t doing it to be an asshole, they just are focused on a point or are extroverted and are unintentionally dominating the conversation.
acomjeanabout 8 years ago
I was at the world science festival though not at this talk. If it&#x27;s like the others it&#x27;s a panel discussion but a lot pre planned. For the Brian Greene quantum physics panel discussion he went from person to person to discuss the double slit experiment. The fact that videos were involved indicated that it wasn&#x27;t just a random discussion.<p>There was the Alan Alda &#x2F; Tina Feye talk about communicating that was quite good. If your waiting to say your thing instead of listening..
sigi45about 8 years ago
This facebook post sounds like a murder.<p>I do understand that it isn&#x27;t nice or anything but that post blows it up to much which leads to disliking it.
openasocketabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;m suprised no one has brought up that men talking over women is a well-studied phenomenon in childhood and adolescence. Girls tend to contribute less to discussions or conversations in mixed gender settings than they do in single-gender settings. My parents even noticed it when my brother and I moved out of the house, and suddenly my little sister was a lot more talkative at the dinner table. The exact mechanism or reason for this is not well understood.<p>I&#x27;m not sure if this phenomenon has been studied in adulthood, but I wouldn&#x27;t be surprised if some remnant of it remains. Could this simply be an example of that phenomenon in action? Which isn&#x27;t to say this isn&#x27;t sexism, I wouldn&#x27;t consider those two things mutually exclusive.<p>EDIT: to be clear, I&#x27;m not absolving the moderator of blame, or placing any fault on the woman. I&#x27;m simply linking this behavior to a broader social phenomenon that is fairly well studied. I personally think what he did was sexist, whether or not that was his intent.
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ixralmost 8 years ago
Started reading her post, got to &quot;The panel was made up of 5 men and 1 woman.&quot; and the agenda instantly became clear. Finished reading, in a masochistic attempt to confirm my suspicion and indeed, I was right. Give. Me. A. Break.
mbfgabout 8 years ago
Has Jim Holt or World Science Festival commented officially after the fact? I would have thought this would be a priority by both parties. I don&#x27;t see anything, but perhaps i&#x27;m just missing it.
miesmanabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;m sure the moderator wasn&#x27;t even remotely conscious of what he was doing because this is so endemic in our society. The only way this will change is for more people to speak up like this.
xchipabout 8 years ago
I am a male and when I am talked over I have to say something like &quot;hold on let me finish&quot; and that fixes it :D It&#x27;s not a male vs female thing, it&#x27;s just that everyone gets too excited, it happens to me too sometimes :D<p>The moderator talks too much along the whole video. Not a sexist thing though.<p>A link on how to handle interrupts: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marionspeaks.com&#x2F;_blog&#x2F;Marions_Communication_Tips&#x2F;post&#x2F;WHY_PEOPLE_INTERRUPT&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marionspeaks.com&#x2F;_blog&#x2F;Marions_Communication_Tips...</a>
porkyabout 8 years ago
Noticed that too, also on other WSF videos. These is pretty common in the academics world as a rule, even between males (visible on this video)
alexpetraliaabout 8 years ago
ITT: Sexism _must_ be intentional to be true!<p>If someone&#x27;s implicit biases (or given the circumstances, like having ten or hundred men in the room versus one woman) cause them to act differently toward women than men, it&#x27;s still sexism - intentional or not. I&#x27;d encourage the men in this thread to exercise a bit of empathy and imagine what it&#x27;d be like to be the only man in a room full of 100 women (eg. Miley Cyrus concert) - not particularly comfortable!
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mannykannotabout 8 years ago
Thanks! - to the vast number of commentators who have taken the time to explain to me what Jim Holt was probably thinking.
blahman2about 8 years ago
By making everything so dramatic you will end up scaring all women away from science.
komali2about 8 years ago
I feel like the details in the post make it fodder for alt right cannons. &quot;I was literally shaking&quot; and &quot;everyone went silent and then burst into applause&quot; are dirt-common memes on alt-right discussion boards. Until I saw the video I thought this was an elaborate alt-right prank.
peternickyabout 8 years ago
Looks like she missed John Gruber&#x27;s post on Facebook last week. :(
gpawlabout 8 years ago
Talkington, quite the aptonym for this article.
sebbeanabout 8 years ago
link?
jbmorgadoabout 8 years ago
It baffles me that moderators keep blocking the community and remove flags form these kind of totally non factual and opinionated posts, and then go and themselves flag highly voted fact based posts that make it to the first page of HN - like they did some weeks ago about the code capabilities of IT grads in India.<p>It is almost like the moderators in HN have a clearly defined and very limited political range of ideological opinions they believe in and that they only allow anyone else to express - or even discuss about - their personal opinions if they mirror those of the moderators.
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vjvjabout 8 years ago
Can someone paste the contents here?
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marvinabout 8 years ago
Aaaaaand it&#x27;s flagged. No surprises there. I was refreshing every five minutes to see how long it would take.<p>[Edit: Thanks to the mods for taking responsibility for allowing this discussion].
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mememaestroabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;m literally in tears and shaking with anger.<p>How could he?!
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dating_adviceabout 8 years ago
Not contributing, am I? But that kind of voting is contributing, so much so that you have to get a bunch of karma to be allowed the privilege, right? Dear god. Yeah, I&#x27;m not allowed to talk about votes, but if you&#x27;re going to give random people the ability to grey out comments of others anonymously, that&#x27;s just tough luck. I don&#x27;t care about the POINTS, I care what they&#x27;re trying to say, and to that I will respond without fail.<p>In case of someone getting confused by my handle, I was going to reply &quot;Not on the first date though&quot; in response to the sentence &quot;Most people would prefer to hear something along the lines of &#x27;I love you and want to marry you.&#x27;&quot; in this comment <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14499533" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14499533</a> earlier today, but then thought better after I had already made the account, but didn&#x27;t bother to log out either. If you don&#x27;t understand something, assume there&#x27;s a super cool reason that&#x27;s not for you to know.
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theWatcher37about 8 years ago
Outrage culture front and center. Time to pull out our morality antennas and virtue signal how pious we are in support.
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chris_wotabout 8 years ago
Can someone please pass that note to Joe Scarborough also? He was interviewed by Colbert, and not once was this raised. Seriously, watch Morning Joe and he just will not let Mika Brzezinski speak, and you can see her suppressing her frustration.<p>Scarborough doesn&#x27;t even appear to know he&#x27;s doing it, and Brzezinski seems to be powerless to stop him.
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smirksirlotabout 8 years ago
This thread is basically people stumbling over themselves trying to defend how this is NOT sexist or justify the varying degrees of sexism.<p>Some of the fun examples: - men get talked over too! (doesn&#x27;t mean this isn&#x27;t sexist) - he&#x27;s just an asshole (doesn&#x27;t mean he&#x27;s not a sexist asshole) - that woman is just looking for a social justice moment (how about the rest of the audience?)
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crawfordcomeauxabout 8 years ago
I&#x27;ve seen a lot of people denying the moderator is exist. I don&#x27;t care one way or another.<p>The real question is was this behavior sexist in this context?<p>That&#x27;s much easier to answer: yes. How we know:<p>A woman said she was seeing a discrimination pattern.<p>But what if she&#x27;s wrong?<p>Then we&#x27;ll overcorrect for sexism, realize it, and ideally find a point of moderation. Guess what...we&#x27;re probably going to do that anyway because no system is perfect so the likelihood of moderately correcting sexism without over-&#x2F;under-correcting is low.<p>All we need to do is let the women speak and give their perspective equal footing.<p>This can more easily be resolved without attempting to force objective judgments. I know that can be a hard idea for science-minded people to swallow. Unfortunately, science has become too objective and still lacks solid frameworks for dealing with the subjective experience, which sexism is so clearly intertwined with.