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Americans don’t need more degrees, they need training

264 pointsby sylvainkalachealmost 8 years ago

17 comments

Animatsalmost 8 years ago
This is from the operator of a coding school. They have an interesting payment plan. &quot;There is no upfront cost to join Holberton school. We only charge 17% of your internship earnings and 17% of your salary over 3 years once you find a job.&quot; That&#x27;s more interesting than anything in the article. The school takes the financial risk on students not getting a job. This is the reverse of most for-profit education, which relies on loans and doesn&#x27;t guarantee a job.<p>I wonder how this is working out for Holberton School.
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msluyteralmost 8 years ago
&quot;<i>There was a time when most people could make a career out of a skill, or stay within the same type of job, but workers today constantly need to adapt. They must become lifelong learners: Teach a student one skill and you got him one job; teach a student to learn and you got him lifetime employment.</i>&quot;<p>It&#x27;s far from clear to me that any beyond a small percentage of people generally, but perhaps Americans in particular, have the capacity to become lifelong learners. Not saying folks are stupid -- the problem isn&#x27;t a lack of raw cognitive capacity, IMHO.<p>What actually makes someone a lifelong learner? Curiosity. If you don&#x27;t _want_ to learn, it&#x27;s going to be very difficult to do so, except perhaps while under the gun for short periods of time. And, unfortunately, our education system seems ideally tailored for stamping out children&#x27;s natural curiosity. If that sounds overly pessimistic, I&#x27;d welcome a demonstration to the contrary.<p>I feel that the answer is basically &quot;let&#x27;s fix our education system,&quot; which I -- again, perhaps overly pessimistically -- believe to be politically impossible.
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WheelsAtLargealmost 8 years ago
Yes, this is very true. Most companies aren&#x27;t going to keep you long enough to spend lots of money to train you. In the old days you expected to be at the same company until you retired. These days you&#x27;re lucky if you are there for five. Training should really start at the high school level. It&#x27;s a disgrace that most students graduate from 12+ years of school without the training to get a good job but they can attend a codecamp for 1 year and get a starting job as a coder. It&#x27;s no wonder we have a large number of workers that feel the american dream is slipping away. They never learned the skills they need to survive and thrive in our current economic system.<p>What&#x27;s even sadder is that leaders are not focusing in this part of the problem but instead in silliness like who uses what bathroom. Things need to change.
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wcummingsalmost 8 years ago
I cringe when I hear about plans for &quot;tuition-free&quot; 4-year college. I went to a fancy private high school, with a bunch of kids who graduated and went to fancy private universities. From what I can tell, it&#x27;s done very little for them. The people who aren&#x27;t working in tech or finance are literally on food stamps, extending their time in college, doing something like Teach for America, or working retail jobs. <i>With 4-year degrees</i>.<p>As if that weren&#x27;t agitating enough, universities seem to relish their role in &quot;not providing job training&quot; and being &quot;not a vocational school&quot; and &quot;producing well-rounded students&quot;. The government shouldn&#x27;t be footing the bill to send people to these schools (through subsidized loans or other mechanisms), which for most students are glorified daycare centers for young adults who don&#x27;t want to join the workforce yet. It&#x27;s a huge waste of money, as the current levels of student loan debt attests to.<p>I don&#x27;t know all the details here but an apprenticeship program seems like a step in the right direction. The federal government should forgive student loans (lay the cost on the universities)
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panicalmost 8 years ago
You could make the same argument from the worker&#x27;s perspective. Companies don&#x27;t need to hire graduates, they need to offer training for their employees! Why are we focused on what people should do when companies are the ones setting the bar?
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PeterStueralmost 8 years ago
Jobs are for machines, life is for people. How many of the &#x27;jobs&#x27; realy contribute to a better world? You can&#x27;t blame people wanting them regardless as we tied in their whole right to live with &#x27;employment&#x27;. I&#x27;d say especially Americans could do with a broad scientific and cultural renaissance style education.
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eksemplaralmost 8 years ago
I agree to some extend, but for a lot of jobs the degree is your skill. I employ a lot of low level coders who are trained to do what we want them to do. Haven&#x27;t had trouble finding those.<p>What I do have trouble finding is someone with the theoretical knowledge on how to utilize machine learning patterns, which design patterns, paradigms, techs and libraries we should use and why and so on.
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jliptzinalmost 8 years ago
Education in this country needs to be totally reformed. High school is basically day care in most places. No reason the average 4 year degree cannot be completed at ages 14-18. Then if people want to get a masters they can go ahead, but it shouldn&#x27;t be expected like going off to college is.
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acscottalmost 8 years ago
No evidence to support the thesis. No special personal perspective to share the secret sauce.<p>The unfilled job number of 6 million is an interesting data point. I&#x27;ll give them that. But a job does not equal having a good life.<p>In short, the only data point to take away from this is waste of time. Am I being harsh? Not as harsh as un-empathic, presumptive declarative what people in America need (by the way you need to provide evidence and support to make claims like this at least).
PaulHoulealmost 8 years ago
Job training has been universally popular among US politicians for a long time, but the evidence that it helps people find work is weak. See<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ITT_Technical_Institute" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ITT_Technical_Institute</a>
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jseligeralmost 8 years ago
A useful point and one I make in this essay on boosting apprenticeships: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;seliger.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;16&#x2F;rare-good-political-news-boosting-apprenticeships&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;seliger.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;16&#x2F;rare-good-political-news-boost...</a>. The &quot;College for all, all the time and everywhere&quot; mantra needs to end. College is great but is not a panacea.
Aoyagialmost 8 years ago
I heard that most American degrees are, in terms of knowledge and whatnot, worth a high school diploma from some European countries. Any truth to that at all?
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Kenjialmost 8 years ago
&gt;Companies, especially in the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) industries, are shifting their recruiting process from “where did you study?” to “what can you do?”.<p>But are they really? Go look at job openings. You will find more often than not &#x27;X degree required&#x27; (or at least recommended). If you don&#x27;t have a degree, your application will often go straight into the trash, before the question &quot;what can you do?&quot; is asked.
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dpflanalmost 8 years ago
There is a New York Times article today (6&#x2F;28&#x2F;17) about the idea of skills vs. degrees.<p>&gt; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;28&#x2F;technology&#x2F;tech-jobs-skills-college-degree.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;28&#x2F;technology&#x2F;tech-jobs-skil...</a>
remotehackalmost 8 years ago
When I was in High School, I went to 2 years of Vocational School at the same time and took advanced studies for college so I&#x27;d have something to fall back on one way or the other.
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DiNovialmost 8 years ago
These articles for the most part live off of an imagined past. It wasn&#x27;t hard to train someone to work an assembly line, which used to be all you needed to do.<p>Skilled employment such as plumbing electrical had and still have apprenticeships...
rbanffyalmost 8 years ago
Can critical thinking and debate skills be taught? Throw in some geopolitics and I can support the idea...