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Angular 2/4 Is Too Little Too Late

168 pointsby Sujanalmost 8 years ago

35 comments

rpedenalmost 8 years ago
Re-post of what I wrote about this yesterday on Reddit:<p>I think Alan Kay was right: computing, at this point, is pop culture. Articles like this are are kind of like identity politics for programmers.<p>I don&#x27;t say that that to disparage the author, because stuff like this is nothing new. Programmers have divided themselves into warring tribes for almost as long have there have been programmers. You used to see C programmers saying that Pascal is for idiots, and Pascal programmers saying that C is for neckbeards. Or similar arguments between C++ and Visual Basic camps or C vs asembler. And there are dozens (probably hundreds or more, actually) of other examples.<p>So it&#x27;s not a new phenomenon, and I don&#x27;t expect it to go away. The way I look at it, it&#x27;s usually more productive to mostly ignore the pop-culturists and just pick tools that allow you to get things done quickly and happily. I&#x27;ve used Angular 2&#x2F;4, React, and Vue. I like them all, and I&#x27;d be happy to work on a project using any of them. Aurelia looks equally enjoyable.<p>At this point, I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s especially likely that a project will fail because you chose Angular over React, or vice versa. Pick what works best for you and your team, and don&#x27;t worry about what the chattering bloggers say you should be using. :)
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jamraalmost 8 years ago
This reads as react fanboyism to me. I used React&#x2F;Redux on a project and was unable to bring people up in my aging team. Now we are fully Angular 2+. It is much better for my newly grown team of 15. The action creator approach of Redux isn&#x27;t very readable or maintainable. The module system in Angular is better for us.<p>You can use webpack with Angular. RxJs is a great addition that will eventually be removed when Observables become implemented in JS. The declarative style of templates are different than JSX, but are not hard to deal with in practice. Native script allows for mobile dev, although I don&#x27;t personally use it.<p>Before I switched to Angular, I preferred React. Now that I use this framework approach, I am much happier and have more faith that my code base will be consistent. I read somewhere that google used Angular for adsense so I think it is good enough for production use for us.
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bdcravensalmost 8 years ago
&gt;&gt; Benchmarks for React consistently show its superior performance over Angular 2&#x2F;4: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;auth0.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;more-benchmarks-virtual-dom-vs-angular-12-vs-mithril-js-vs-the-rest&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;auth0.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;more-benchmarks-virtual-dom-vs-angula...</a>.<p>Intellectually dishonest. The article linked to was from January 2016, around the time the first beta of Angular 2 was released. That code has all sort of debugging code in it, and the architecture changed quite a bit between then and the release in September 2016. (To say nothing of the fact that those benchmarks don&#x27;t cover Angular 4, despite the preface in the article) With AOT in Angular 4, a site running in production is quite fast compared to JIT.
jashmennalmost 8 years ago
Here&#x27;s a litmus test for if you should use Angular or React: how do you feel about the fact that React has ~4 major routing libraries?<p>I&#x27;ve written a book on both Angular 2+ and a book on React. I&#x27;ve talked w&#x2F; hundreds of developers on both sides and I can tell you that people with different constraints (and backgrounds) will have a different response.<p>The author of this article cites &quot;more ReactJS libraries on npm&quot; to imply that React is the better choice. Some people love a la carte infrastructure and the power that comes from choosing each element in your stack.<p>Some people love to have those decisions made for them, because they just want to build their app.<p>It&#x27;s often cited that React is &quot;simpler&quot; than Angular, and if you look at just the core that&#x27;s true. But by the time you pick a data architecture, styling choice, router, etc. you&#x27;re back at the same level of complexity.<p>Actually in React, you&#x27;ve spent a lot of time researching which components you want (and if they&#x27;ll even fit together). The pro here is that you get just the stack you want! The competitive evolution of these libraries means that you _can_ have 4 routers and pick the best. But also, if you&#x27;d just picked Angular, you just use their router and move on.<p>Here&#x27;s another litmus test: Do you want &#x27;string&#x27; templates or JSX? (Now, I know it&#x27;s technically possible to do either in both frameworks, but it&#x27;s almost never done in practice.)<p>Almost everything that seems &quot;more complex&quot; in Angular is a result of string-based templates. DI, AOT, the *ngIf and `let` syntax, is all because you&#x27;re doing templates in strings instead of code. How do you feel about that? Would you rather write templates in JavaScript&#x2F;JSX? Then use React. Do you have designers doing HTML on your team? Then use Angular.<p>(Also the other opens by citing webpack, npm, and third-party libraries as a React-specific benefit, but that makes no sense because angular-cli uses Webpack, it&#x27;s on npm, etc.)
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anton-107almost 8 years ago
Angular 2+ user here: - Components have nice API and are pleasant to use - Dependency injection containers out of the box are good for those who value inversion of control in their codebases - Change detection is good and fast. Gone are the times of leaky abstraction of the digest loop - Tooling has caught up: Angular CLI for rapid start, server-side rendering works just fine. You are using npm, webpack, typescript (brings es2016 features to you), modern testing frameworks and what not - Redux works nicely with Angular2+ as well, it&#x27;s not exclusive to React - You can wrap pretty much any 3rd party browser widget into Angular component within maybe one hour of work<p>I guess when your open source library passes a million downloads per month, you are not worrying too much about marketing anymore. So i&#x27;m not quite sure why it&#x27;s so important for the author to declare one and only one winner in the race. Both React and Angular users are benefiting from the competition
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erokaralmost 8 years ago
I agree with the article&#x27;s main point. In the market share fight between React and Angular, React has won — and for good reason, I think.<p>Angular 4 is an improvement over Angular 1.x, but Angular&#x27;s main problem is still needless complexity, both in syntax and concepts added by the framework, and a totalitarian approach, in the sense that Angular seems to want to replace vanilla JavaScript&#x2F;DOM&#x2F;Browser API&#x27;s with it&#x27;s own slightly different and unnecessary versions. What you learn developing in Angular is therefore specific to Angular and not transferable to other domains. Personally I find that depressing and demotivating.<p>Angular 4&#x27;s HTML templating syntax is terrible. I get the feeling the deliberately set out to make it as complex and inconsistent as possible — it&#x27;s hard to phantom how else they ended up with such a mess.<p>Angular seems to have been inspired by the worst of Java EE from days of yore, it&#x27;s riddled with needless complexity and ceremony. No one should have to work with that with the nice alternatives we have today.
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forgottenacc57almost 8 years ago
&gt;&gt;time-travel debugging, hot module reloading, and simple and easy undo&#x2F;redo capabilities<p>These things are prime selling points of Redux and it&#x27;s interesting that they are simply unimportant bells and whistles not worth the massive increase in complexity and cognitive load that Redux brings to ReactJS applications. Use Redux and you have to write a lot more code, really for no good purpose when in most cases you can just store a (HERESY!) global variable and get straight on with the job without twisting your mind around actions and all the other Redux guff.<p>Redux is an anti pattern.<p>This article also breathlessly praises webpack, which is a massively complex and configuration heavy JavaScript tool and one of the prime culprits responsible for the JavaScript build tool ecosystem being so damn complex. Webpack needs to go the way if it&#x27;s predecessors and he replaced with something simple.
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jinderalmost 8 years ago
The prevailing opinion on HN seems to be that React is great, and monolithic frameworks are bad bad bad - especially Angular.<p>On a recent project I started for a client, we did a full evaluation of React + Redux vs Angular 2&#x2F;4 and NGRX.<p>Angular&#x27;s first-class support for TypeScript, and RxJS is incredible when leveraged properly. Integrate this with NGRX for Redux style state management, and you get a compelling solution that is miles ahead of the React&#x2F;Redux combo <i>if</i> you can get over the template syntax (instead of JSX) and the opinionated flavour of Angular.<p>It&#x27;s difficult to offer an alternative opinion in the HN echo chamber, but we&#x27;re having <i>excellent</i> results using Angular CLI + Angular 4 + RxJS + NGRX. It&#x27;s worth the steeper learning curve, IMHO.
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romanovcodealmost 8 years ago
I am using Angular4 and am pretty happy about it. Especially I am happy of the fact that Angular is opinionated framework thus it is easier to work in teams on one project because there is usually just one way (angular way) of doing things instead of 100 different ways in React.<p>Also, author is praising features like rx, time travel, webpack but does he know that all these are baked in angular as well? ngRx is very solid maintained project that actually works with all time-travel debuggers. And webpack is built-in in every angular project.
Wintamutealmost 8 years ago
I agree with this. It&#x27;s a mistake to characterise this solely as Angular vs. React though. It&#x27;s really about these things,<p>- Declarative UI as a pure function of state<p>- One way data flow<p>- Frameworks that use plain language features and functions, rather than template-like DSLs<p>No need for framework holy wars, but objective speaking these sorts of approaches are objectively the right future for UI development imo.
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aeturnumalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;m a mostly-backend dev that&#x27;s been pressed into service on the frontend recently and I&#x27;ve worked on React and on Angular.<p>In my experience, I like the React way of defining components and functionality a lot better. The errors that Angular spits out from the HTML-templates are difficult to parse. There&#x27;s also an unfortunate combination of a fractured community and incomplete first party documentation that makes Angular hard to ramp up on.<p>That said, Angular has a huge advantage that has made developing in it a lot faster for me. It&#x27;s got everything right there. Angular doesn&#x27;t have unique functionality, but it starts you off with a standard set of design patterns that stand you in good stead. React is just a frontend and when you&#x27;re new to the space you don&#x27;t know what else you need. Frequently, the productivity gain of not having to think about how to solve a problem is greater than solving the problem the &quot;right&quot; way.<p>Realistically, most teams solve this problem by having a senior team member who can pick technologies and design patterns. I haven&#x27;t had that luxury on this last project, so I appreciate the Angular ecosystem. Javascript is great, but it&#x27;s still very wild-west like.
water42almost 8 years ago
How to get upvotes on hackernews: write yet another clickbait medium article on how bad angular is.<p>I don&#x27;t think the OP has ever used Angular CLI or followed Angular development. If he had then he would have not written this article since a majority of his claims about Angular are wrong.
laichzeit0almost 8 years ago
I moved to Vue from Angular 1 instead of React when I started a new project last year.<p>I regret nothing.
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mnm1almost 8 years ago
React won and those of us stuck on Angular 1 are mostly fucked. From that perspective, you&#x27;d have to be absolutely fucking insane to even consider Angular 2 after how badly the Angular team fucked up Angular 1 and all its users, leaving them in the dust. It&#x27;s not about tech. Tech is irrelevant. I cannot trust this team to stand behind their software. Maybe that&#x27;s because they build really shitty software. Fool me once and all that ... but IMO, you&#x27;d have to be a fool to use Angular 2+ after this fiasco.
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GiorgioGalmost 8 years ago
It&#x27;s hard to take this post seriously when this guy has barely 5 years in the industry.<p>If you&#x27;re building a large enterprise app with lots of engineers not familiar with either framework, Angular 2&#x2F;4 wins hands down.
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skylarkalmost 8 years ago
I can&#x27;t help but feel like all of these posts are a bit overly dramatized.<p>As much as people complain about Angular, I think it&#x27;s completely fine for the majority of use cases at large scale. So is React. So is Vue. Even Angular 1 is fine. In practice I&#x27;ve never run into most of the issues people preach about. Two way data binding isn&#x27;t the devil. One way data flow isn&#x27;t a panacea.<p>My developer happiness has always been contingent on the quality of my coworkers, and not on the framework itself (all of which, I feel, are great in their own ways.)
addictedalmost 8 years ago
Occasionally I have thoughts like these. And I often write them down. But rarely (never) publish because I am always hit by the idea that no matter how bad a certain framework&#x2F;project is (especially open source), unless it&#x27;s actively malicious, there are real people who are actually putting time and effort building and maintaining these projects.<p>There is absolutely no reason to dismiss all their efforts.<p>I can provide a critique and state my preferences for a certain framework over another without demeaning the project I don&#x27;t find preferable.<p>The O&#x2F;S
Draikenalmost 8 years ago
I stopped reading at<p>&gt; mature ecosystem of tooling and libraries<p>That tells me the author is either blind or so lost in his world that he thinks this is actually true.<p>This fanboyism around languages and frameworks is apparently ever-growing. Haven&#x27;t we learned by now that everything is about trade-offs and there is no One True Way?
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Nekorosualmost 8 years ago
Though I do think Angular 2&#x2F;4 is inferior to React&#x2F;Redux combo this article is very biased and not good for a constructive discussion and comparison of those frameworks.
theodorejbalmost 8 years ago
I strongly disagree with the claim that &quot;React Is Much Simpler.&quot; React on its own may be simpler, but by the time you add libraries for routing, HTTP, dependency injection, date&#x2F;currency formatting, animations, and all the other stuff that Angular provides out of the box, the complexity starts to look pretty similar.<p>Furthermore, because you have to rely on third-party libraries for all the features that React doesn&#x27;t provide, you have to worry about separately keeping them all up-to-date. What if there&#x27;s a critical bug fix in the latest version of your HTTP library, but it&#x27;s only compatible with the latest version of React, which isn&#x27;t compatible with the router version you&#x27;re using? In my experience it takes a lot more time to keep dependencies up-to-date and working together with React than with Angular.
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pjmlpalmost 8 years ago
I doubt we will ever do React.<p>All the SPA projects at our company are Angular based and I don&#x27;t see any plans to change it.
bob1029almost 8 years ago
My experience with Angular is that it was sort of the gateway drug of SPA architecture.<p>Back in 2010-11 I first tried out Angular to experiment with the SPA concept. This was hard to reason with back in those days, as most client DOM was still server-generated (at least for initial requests). It was really a big paradigm shift for a lot of developers, myself included. I found that Angular&#x27;s foundations (directives, services, controllers, etc.) helped to constrain my thinking in ways that made the SPA concept more clear. The angular ecosystem in those days was really a haven of SPA-oriented thinking that couldn&#x27;t really be found elsewhere on the web.<p>Fast forward to now, SPA architecture is essentially the norm. Almost every web-enabled device now has a full javascript runtime. Additionally, it has actually become an anti-pattern in some cases to force server-generated DOM on the client, as each clients&#x27; JS runtime is usually better suited for interacting with its specific DOM quirks and handling device features.<p>Now that SPA has become a more mainstream way of thinking, developers have begun to seek out ways of implementing this architecture with fewer constraints (and arguably bloat) than Angular could bring to the table. Frameworks like RiotJS are starting to explode in popularity because developers still want some fundamental SPA-style framework, but also want to maintain the ability to interact with the DOM in a more direct and vanilla way. When working with Angular, I found myself constantly trying to find (or god forbid write) the angular-compatible directive wrapper for whatever 3rd party javascript component I wanted to add to my project. Being able to simply include something like moment.js directly in my project and use it exactly as their documentation indicates has been a massive productivity gain for me and my team.<p>I took a few cracks at Angular 2, but there was something that always felt off about the component system and how more complex pages were composed. Their attempts to bring typescript into the fold only served to confound things even further for me. I know this is a hugely-subjective thing, but it was basically the end of the road for my Angular experience. It took me 5-6 weeks to get my team truly productive on Angular 1.x. I was able to bring them up to speed on RiotJS in a single afternoon (the router being the hardest bit).
sopooneoalmost 8 years ago
This article includes a statement I&#x27;ve seen several time before: &quot;flux is more of a design pattern then a library or framework&quot;. This statement drives me to unspeakable levels of fury. What does that mean? It&#x27;s like saying &quot;Alvins ball is more a boulder in Yosemite than a mid century school of literary criticism&quot;. They&#x27;re two totally different things!<p>Someone who understands the statement, could you help me? Does it mean that there is a design pattern so light that some particular library which implants it would be trivial to recreate?<p>Any answer, I beg you, please clearly distinguish between the very different concepts of design patterns and named code projects which implement them.
rickcnagyalmost 8 years ago
Having just seen a whole bunch of React shops when interviewing for a front end position, a _lot_ struggle with React but also really enjoy it. Definitely don&#x27;t see a significant difference in the end from Angular, they&#x27;re really similar frameworks.<p>I think the ones that really have invested in making React work in their org but move a _bit_ faster, but Angular making strong decisions and providing really good patterns out of the gate is extremely valuable.<p>Both are great frameworks, so adopt works best for your company, your team, and your product!
javiercralmost 8 years ago
From the article:<p>&gt; We can be almost certain that React &amp; React Native are a competitive advantage. We can see evidence in how Facebook simultaneously launched Snapchat-like “Stories” across four applications (WhatsApp, Messenger, Facebook, and Instagram) in its product suite.<p>&gt; It’s not hard to infer that React was a key reason why Facebook was able to do this so rapidly.<p>Is there any actual evidence that React &#x2F; React Native was used to build the Stories feature for any of these apps?
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bla2almost 8 years ago
<i>At the peak of JavaScript fatigue in 2013</i><p>I don&#x27;t think JavaScript fatigue peaked in 2013. FTA:<p><i>it is quite easy to maintain a large, flexible, well-engineered SPA with React, Vue, or other lightweight JS libraries, even at enterprise companies with large teams.</i><p>Vue&#x27;s initial release was just over three years ago. Other technologies used by enterprise companies has usually proven itself for a decade or two. Articles like this don&#x27;t help with JavaScript fatigue.
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colonelpopcornalmost 8 years ago
This article ignores the power of Microsoft backing Angular in ASP.NET as a first class citizen with typescript. Most companies don&#x27;t care about what stack they use, and if their Microsoft partnership agreement offers free Angular + TypeScript training? Most companies will go with Angular if they don&#x27;t have specific performance needs.
Achsharalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;ll just be the sad puppy sitting in the corner writing everything in vanilla es2016&#x2F;17. I never had any problems and everything works. The amount of code I write is no more than the angular code I write at work. Never used react but it looks like a jumbled mess. Vanilla JS is pretty sweet and has everything I could ever need.
ratbeardalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;d agree that angular 2 was a letdown. Seems like most people are like me and like typescript, the cli, and a better router, but those could have been incrementally added instead of starting from scratch.<p>It still boggles my mind thinking about the massive amount of effort google&#x27;s large team spent on ng2, library authors spend porting ng-bootstrap, plus every app that will be rewritten, plus the interim confusion of having 2 versions of libraries, documentation pages, etc. For improvements in some areas, more complexity in others. And I think to the point of the article, it feels far behind react in a lot of advanced development features as it is still trying to get a solid footing. Just saving a file and waiting a few seconds for a full page reload is much worse than the gulp then webpack browserupdate system I setup for ng1 apps, and the cli is not _that_ much better than a custom gulp task I setup to generate new components and services in ng1.<p>My theory is the primary motivation for ng2 came from the angular team not wanting to maintain a js and dart version of the library, so they wanted to move it to a single codebase that could compile from nativescript&#x2F;typescript to both, and it was an easy sell to all the people who identify in the angular tribe.<p>Some specific things I don&#x27;t like in ng2:<p>- Too many ways to do forms. Template driven vs reactive, with some things like mdAutocomplete I could only get working w&#x2F; reactive. You can do [ngModel] + name attribute, [ngModel]=&quot;name&quot;, [(ngModel)], formControl, formControlName. Little things like adding `Validators.required` isn&#x27;t picked up by the view, so you have to specify required there too to get the little (*) asterisk in the view for mdInput<p>- Testing got much harder to do, with mocking every dependency. Just when ng1 made frontend unit testing pretty painless to do, it feels like a step back.<p>- The DI system in general feels like waaay too much complexity for the much smaller benefits it brings now that `import`s are available. I was reading the docs to try to figure out an equivalent to a factory function and I realized even if I could figure it out, another developer or myself in 6 months would not understand it. Mocking imports for testing would be good enough, I think.<p>- Unless you plan to be an &quot;ng2 developer&quot;, dipping into the 100+ ;) rxJS observable methods is a good way to confuse your teammates or future self. Have fun remembering what mergeMapTo vs switchMap vs forkJoin do. Observables are cool, but imo another case of too much complexity and too many ways to do things for the benefits. I haven&#x27;t seen good guidelines of at which point in your app do you transition from observables (returned from http request) to plain objects - should you pass observables down through components for things that can change, or rely on the component seeing its input property changed? Should I implement a snapshot property on my objects that can change, similar to how they do routes? It is silly to me an http request response is modeled as an unending sequence of events, instead of a promise. The only benefits I see like being able to specify `retry(3)` could be implemented as an option in your api service that wraps http, and would probably be more consistent that way.<p>- A lot of small things are gone, like a capitalize pipe, ngFor iterating over objects. A little slower when getting started on an app when you have to add them yourself. They got rid of things like http interceptors and route resolves, and are adding them back in now after people complain. Even stuff like adding a query param to a url required a bad java-like api and multiple lines of code. They improved that since, but why start w&#x2F; a step back from ng1?<p>- Speak of route resolves, they have gone from a simple 1 liner in the route definition to being a 10 line standalone service, which you have to import and add to your providers array.<p>- Hasn&#x27;t been an issue for a while, but having your global ng-cli which housed the webpack and typescript config(?) go out of sync w&#x2F; your local version, and your angular&#x2F;core version, was a really confusing and painful upgrade.<p>- I like typescript, but it does have strange errors where it seems to have an older version of a file cached and you need to restart the server to fix it. Seems to happen more when importing a class that isn&#x27;t @Injectable()?<p>- It is slower. My livereloading browsersync ng1 apps were faster and more fun to work on.<p>- It is a huge pain to rename things or reorganize your files. VSCode was rename symbol which is nice, but to stay consistent when renaming a component you need to rename: each of the 4 files+directory, all the imports, the `selector` and all tag references to it across the app, the `.my-component` css classes. I do a lot less refactoring of component names or directory structure in ng2 than a glob import style ng1 app, where you don&#x27;t need to manually requiring everything.<p>Hmm, maybe should write a blog post about this.
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emodendroketalmost 8 years ago
What I&#x27;d like to see is really mostly for them to just keep maintaining Angular 1.x. I don&#x27;t care about &quot;microlibraries;&quot; I want a sane set of components that work well together, even if they&#x27;re not all necessarily the absolute best in class.
ernsheongalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;m hoping Polymer 2 will gain more traction. Anyone out there hoping for the same thing?
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luordalmost 8 years ago
&gt; Two way data-binding was a feature in 2013 and Facebook said it was a bug. It turns out they were right. Ember, Angular, Vue, and others would later adopt the one-way model.<p>No, they weren&#x27;t. It&#x27;s just a different way to manage state. And VueJS employs two-way binding so I&#x27;m not sure what was the intent here.<p>&gt; Redux brought predictable, functional, maintainable state management to JavaScript.<p>Stopped reading here. Too sensationalist.
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gregorsalmost 8 years ago
Chocolate vs Vanilla argument here<p><pre><code> while(true){ if(dislikeAllCurrentFrameworks?()){ inventNewFramework() } }</code></pre>
brawnyalmost 8 years ago
This is why I like Aurelia, its much lighter in terms of speed and amount of code, while still being a fully flared framework like Angular. Sure theres React&#x2F;Redux Vue&#x2F;Vuex but why do that setup when you can literally go au new hit enter about 4 times and your app is ready to code and build.
Manageralmost 8 years ago
Article is basically why use React over Angular.<p>One thing though - Facebook succeeded because of the sheer amount of money plowed into the team. Our team is succeeding with Angular at the moment and feel pretty strong that it solves our front end rather splendidly.<p>Disclaimer - I do like React, it has its place.