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Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

371 pointsby discombobulatealmost 8 years ago

28 comments

buttershakesalmost 8 years ago
This is a fight for control of Bitcoin. It is business interests on both sides fighting for a position of authority. SegWit2x is an attempt to remove control from the core dev team, which while technically strong is full of zealots with questionable motives and terrible management skills. Bitcoin ABC and Unlimited have their own parts to play as factions. It's getting tense, but it's been years in the making. Groups unwilling to compromise on the most basic points. I suspect that SegWit2x will end up taking over the network, but I'd rather see a pure large block faction like Bitcoin ABC. Either way the core developers are going to lose control of a 40 billion dollar network, possibly one of the biggest fails in modern technology. They will be left on a minority chain which will have little relevance going forward. I've said it before but anyone who put money into Blockstream has to seriously be wondering what the hell they are doing, there CEO should have been kicked out a long time ago, he has no relevant experience to actually running an organization and has royally messed it up.
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shp0nglealmost 8 years ago
The basic question is how to scale; off-chain or on-chain. The rest is just theatrics and typical nerdy hyperbole.<p>One side of the fight (Core &#x2F; blockstream) wants to scale off-chain, pushing transactions to side-chains and&#x2F;or lighting networks, and want to profit from off-chain solutions.<p>The other side of the fight (segwit2x &#x2F; miners) wants to scale on-chain, making the blocks bigger, and profit from block fees.<p>Both sides have pros and cons.<p>Pros of off-chain solutions - more scalable, don&#x27;t need expensive confirmations for each transaction, more long-term. Cons: the solutions don&#x27;t exist yet and might be vaporware; segwit etc are just stepping stones.<p>Pros of on-chain solutions - making the blocks larger can be done now, no need to wait for new software and new networks. Cons - makes the blocks larger, which makes running bitcoin nodes harder. Also cannot scale this way infinitely (you need to keep all the transactions on a disk forever).<p>The discussion about segwit is in reality just discussion about how to scale, and who profits.<p>As for me, I don&#x27;t really care, Bitcoin is inefficient either way
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apeacealmost 8 years ago
The days are counting down to the &quot;Segwit2X&quot; rollout, the idea supported in the &quot;New York Agreement&quot; (NYA)[0].<p>There is a contingency plan in place should the Core-supported User Activated Soft Fork become activated.[1]<p>Segwit2X has working code, has been tested in beta, and is now in RC.[2]<p>Without commenting on the merits of the different approaches, the current situation is thrilling to watch as a spectator. To call it a &quot;Civil War&quot; is not an exaggeration.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@DCGco&#x2F;bitcoin-scaling-agreement-at-consensus-2017-133521fe9a77" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@DCGco&#x2F;bitcoin-scaling-agreement-at-conse...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.bitmain.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;uahf-contingency-plan-uasf-bip148&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.bitmain.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;uahf-contingency-plan-uasf-bip14...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.linuxfoundation.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;bitcoin-segwit2x&#x2F;2017-July&#x2F;000145.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.linuxfoundation.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;bitcoin-segwit2x...</a>
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arcasteralmost 8 years ago
After working in the space for about a year, after being a developer and enthusiast surrounding crypto since the early days of BTC this &quot;bickering among core devs&quot; is nothing new.<p>Any press or &quot;talks&quot; that say otherwise are either being influenced with serious bias or are simply reporting false information.<p>I like DLT tech, however, if bitcoin has shown us anything it&#x27;s that once you solve the double-spend problem you&#x27;re still left with an even more grotesque problem of governance.<p>People pick fun at ETH since it has a &quot;single leader&quot;, but Vitalik is more of a back-seat conductor than a &quot;grand leader&quot;. Also, most arguments of &quot;bitcoin being a truly decentralized platform because our devs are decentralized&quot; can easily be diffused by vaguely looking into how BlockStream operates...<p>The political shit-storm being paraded by BTC needs to end soon, we really don&#x27;t need another 2-3 years of douchey BTC core devs arguing on the internet and bad-mouthing any project that isn&#x27;t BTC.
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xutopiaalmost 8 years ago
To me this whole process shows how great cryptocurrencies really are. The process is live, it is public and it is messy.<p>Compare with how our usual currencies are handled. Behind closed doors with powerful banks or private companies deciding for our governments.
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BenoitPalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;m starting to see a bit clearer on how a fork would pan out:<p>Miners: Hashing power has little influence. As long as there are miners, and two chains rejecting each other transactions will be processed. At first, transactions processing might take a while, but difficulty will adapt. This will create two legitimate currencies. Now everybody in possession of 1 BTC would have 1 BTCa + 1 BTCb.<p>Exchanges: Little power. They will trade both BTCa and BTCb, and accept commissions.<p>Trader of goods, in embedded devices: They might have to modify their client to accept both currencies, but they would have to follow the market rates. Otherwise they would have to suffer income loss from people using them to profit from arbitrating the markets.<p>BTC-rich individuals: They have now 1 BTCa + 1 BTCb. But there is transaction replayability. If they spend 1 BTCa, their BTCb can also get spend the same way. And they lose their BTCb. Chains have a strategic advantage to replay transactions getting to the other one because: 1) they get to keep the commission, 2) they ascertain themselves as more encompassing economically (not sure on this one maybe, they want to stay neutral).<p>Now, if BTC-holders can wallet-emptying-double-spend them to 2 different addresses they control on the 2 chains. And, compared to the ones who got their transaction replayed, they have kept both their BTCa and BTCb.<p>TL;DR: IMHO, come the technical fork, some BTC-holders will be tumbling until they irrevocably acquire their BTCa + BTCb, and use them to make runs on the markets, effectively materializing the economic fork.<p>----<p>I&#x27;d love the opinion of someone who lived through the ETH-ETC split, especially about the transaction replayability part.
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rwmjalmost 8 years ago
If Bitcoin splits, what do you predict would be the effect on holders of bitcoins?<p>- They have twice as much money (yay!)<p>- They have twice as much money but the value is split, so it&#x27;s worth approximately the same.<p>- One of the branches wins or mostly wins.<p>- The split does so much damage that some (all?) value of coins is lost.
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rihegheralmost 8 years ago
Already discussed a few days ago on HN <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14758587" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14758587</a>
Animatsalmost 8 years ago
The scary thing is that the developers want to go from initial release of new code to wide deployment in a few days. This on something where any security flaw can be attacked anonymously and profitably. What could possibly go wrong?
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nfriedlyalmost 8 years ago
What is Bitcoin and friends good for <i>right now</i> besides speculating with and trading for other currencies?<p>A while back there was a BTC marketplace where among other things, I spent 1 BTC on a steam key for the game Portal (a poor trade in hindsight).<p>But they shut down and the only other place that I can think of that accepts BTC is humblebundle.com - and presumably they convert it to USD right away.<p>Actually:<p><i>&gt; Bitcoin payments have been disabled for the Humble Capcom Rising Bundle.</i><p>So, yea, who accepts BTC right now?
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placeybordeauxalmost 8 years ago
I just moved ~20% of my crypto holdings from BTC to LTC. The rest I&#x27;ll likely keep close to 40% of my cryptoholdings in BTC, but move it onto my own wallet. If a fork actually happens, I&#x27;d prefer to be in control of the private keys.<p>It&#x27;s kind of odd that there is still so much FUD about segwit, as it has already activated on LTC. It hasn&#x27;t appeared to open any security holes.
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ihumanalmost 8 years ago
How is this different then what happened with Bitcoin XT and Bitcoin classic?
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badloginagainalmost 8 years ago
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why not both? It doesn&#x27;t appear that the two strategies are mutually exclusive. Is it just that SegWitX2 is considered too rushed? Is it just that miners have a vested interest in maintaining influence?<p>Personally it seems like smart contracts and other similar services beget an ecosystem that could swell the market cap by a significant amount, I assume miners would have a long term goal of doing just that.<p>As a disclaimer, I own Bitcoin, but I&#x27;m definitely a layman and I don&#x27;t really have a horse in the race. What I&#x27;m most concerned is what these changes are going to accomplish when looking back 10 years from now. I&#x27;m in BTC for the long-term, and this whole thing stinks of petty bias and tribal power plays.
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hellbanneralmost 8 years ago
I see a lot of mention of 51% attack; the selfish miner attack could be done with closer to 33%(!):<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;1311.0243v4.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;1311.0243v4.pdf</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoin.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;38273&#x2F;have-bitcoin-developers-applied-the-solution-for-selfish-miner-attack" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoin.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;38273&#x2F;have-bitco...</a>
JohnJamesRamboalmost 8 years ago
Can someone show some math on how much more expensive it would be to run a node if block size is allowed to increase from 1 MB? It sounds like a silly made-up excuse.
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kanzurealmost 8 years ago
Not really a &quot;civil war&quot;-- basically, bitcoin will keep working, even without the segwit upgrade if it gets delayed another year or two, and there might be some new altcoins that could be spun off from the current bitcoin, and there might be some brand confusion for a while as people wonder whether something incompatible with the bitcoin network is still bitcoin.<p>Here is some background:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.coindesk.com&#x2F;bitcoins-segwit2x-scaling-proposal-core-developers-react&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.coindesk.com&#x2F;bitcoins-segwit2x-scaling-proposal-c...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@jimmysong&#x2F;segwit2x-what-you-need-to-know-b747e6326266" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@jimmysong&#x2F;segwit2x-what-you-need-to-know...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinmagazine.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;major-exchanges-will-consider-bitcoin-unlimited-new-asset&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinmagazine.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;major-exchanges-will-co...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinmagazine.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;countdown-segwit-these-are-dates-keep-eye&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinmagazine.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;countdown-segwit-these-...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14758587" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14758587</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;sound8bits&#x2F;comments&#x2F;5xre70&#x2F;the_origins_of_the_modern_blocksize_debate&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;sound8bits&#x2F;comments&#x2F;5xre70&#x2F;the_orig...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Bitcoin&#x2F;comments&#x2F;6mz19j&#x2F;potential_network_disruption&#x2F;dk5pftg&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Bitcoin&#x2F;comments&#x2F;6mz19j&#x2F;potential_n...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Bitcoin&#x2F;comments&#x2F;6mgecw&#x2F;frankensegwit8x_testnet_irrecoverably_forks_a&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Bitcoin&#x2F;comments&#x2F;6mgecw&#x2F;frankensegw...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinmagazine.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;bitcoin-unlimited-miners-may-be-preparing-51-attack-bitcoin&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinmagazine.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;bitcoin-unlimited-miner...</a> or <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@WhalePanda&#x2F;verified-chatlogs-why-jihan-and-jiang-want-to-block-segwit-at-all-cost-bbf068c5ce0f" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@WhalePanda&#x2F;verified-chatlogs-why-jihan-a...</a><p>how about some peer review yo, <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.linuxfoundation.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;bitcoin-dev&#x2F;2017-July&#x2F;014709.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.linuxfoundation.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;bitcoin-dev&#x2F;2017...</a> and <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.linuxfoundation.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;bitcoin-dev&#x2F;2017-July&#x2F;014710.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.linuxfoundation.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;bitcoin-dev&#x2F;2017...</a>
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jancsikaalmost 8 years ago
Can someone please ELI5 why ASICBOOST would be considered an exploit?<p>Especially considering Satoshi clearly got caught off guard by the quick rise in GPU mining-- which led to the bootstrapping mechanism putting Bitcoin in fewer hands than it otherwise would have. But I never saw Satoshi call GPU mining an exploit.
lamontcgalmost 8 years ago
From a technical analysis perspective (yeah i also do palm reading and seances), Bitcoin&#x27;s chart looks like a perfect triangle continuation pattern.
narratoralmost 8 years ago
This is why I&#x27;m bullish on Litecoin. Already has segregated witness, lightning network, low transaction fees, and a low drama community.
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bleairalmost 8 years ago
It appears the emotional power of &quot;money&quot; coincidences with zealotry. It must be exciting to have your money tied into something that could split. If the split does happen and both forks keep running won&#x27;t the world economy of bitcoins simply doubled? I assume someone will provide an exchange to move to&#x2F;from bitcoin-zeal vs. segwit2
deletiaalmost 8 years ago
This just in: centralized authorities worried about the deflation of our fiat bubble and crypo currencies position as the next generation of digital commodities capitalize with FUD propaganda two weeks before a software patch (proposed last year) is rolled out exactly* in the way it is intended to.
someSvenalmost 8 years ago
I was a bit surprised by the crash, I would have sold and buyed back cheeper. But I thought the information was already in the price. I could imagine someone tried to make it crash hard by selling a lot and creating a panic, and failed.
jgordalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;m not sure why SegWit is put forward as a &quot;scaling solution&quot;. It does make some room by moving signature data out of the main block, which may allow 2.5x as many transactions - but thats a one time improvement, afaict.<p>The real problem is simply that the blocksize is way too small. At peak daily loads we are trying to put 20MB of transactions into a single 1MB block. Of course the unprocessed transactions pool up in the &#x27;mempool&#x27; waiting for the next block, and are eventually cleared later in the day in off-peak times.<p>The reason they don&#x27;t just pool up indefinitely, and crash the server, is due to economics - people pay higher transaction fees to get their important transactions into the next block. Miners earn part of their income from those fees, so they put the best paying transactions into the block first.<p>Most people who might like to use Bitcoin to pay for actual things, will balk at paying 3$ to send 500$, which means less people use the system, or they only use it for important big trades - thus, an equilibrium is set up where transaction volume is kept low.<p>Keep in mind bitcoin blocks occur on average every 10 minutes. A global rate of 3 trans&#x2F;sec is clearly not a large number for a system used by millions, all across the globe.<p>Litecoin has the same architecture, but doesn&#x27;t have this bottleneck problem - they have 3&#x2F;4 the blocksize, process 4x as frequently and handle less that 1&#x2F;10th the volume of transactions. So there is no mempool, fees are low etc.<p>The max blocksize is set to 1MB in code [ think #define or static const ], so increasing it means releasing new software - old versions will not be able to process large blocks, so this means a &quot;hard fork&quot;.<p>I would argue that a blocksize increase is urgently needed and justifies a prudent hardfork - because it is currently preventing Bitcoin from growing. Not only do we need a 2MB block yesterday [ some say 8MB ], but we need a clear block size upgrade schedule for the next few years so Bitcoin can handle steady growth, without the need for many future hardforks.<p>Blocksize increase over the next few years could yield a 20x to 200x increase in throughput using the current architecture ... this releases the stranglehold on transaction flow and user growth, and buys time to build out all the other nice new technologies that can augment, or scale beyond, the linear architecture of the blockchain.<p>This issue has been delayed and debated for 2.5 years, so now it really is urgent and people on both sides are pretty angry. Sadly, its metastasized into an ugly political civil war .. but I think at heart it is a fairly normal engineering issue that could have been resolved routinely. Maybe having a ton of cash riding on your code makes easy choices hard.
xiaomaalmost 8 years ago
Standard. This is what bitcoin leaders do.
faragonalmost 8 years ago
TL;DR: Bitcoin is popping, and Ethereum is going to be the new bubble.
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m777zalmost 8 years ago
With this much uncertainty, paying ~$2000 for 1 bitcoin seems insane to me. But that&#x27;s why I don&#x27;t invest in cryptocurrencies; too much volatility for my taste.
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pteredactylalmost 8 years ago
Bitcoin continues to evolve. With that comes growing pains. And internal struggles as it is mostly an open source project.<p>But for Bloomberg to use a &#x27;civil war&#x27; hyperbole signals fear from the establishment. Established capital more specifically. And really, that is bitcoin&#x27;s biggest threat.<p>Disclosure: I own bitcoin.
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gremlinsincalmost 8 years ago
If I wanted to grab an altcoin like Nxt&#x2F;Ardor -- would it be safer to buy bitcoin now, or wait till Segwit when it could become cheaper? Nxt&#x2F;Ardor and all crypto&#x27;s are downward spiral now--because of the bitcoin split coming, so I feel now&#x27;s a buyers paradise.. and Nxt&#x2F;Ardor chains look very promising from a tech standpoint.
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