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About This Googler's Manifesto

302 pointsby bmahmoodalmost 8 years ago

36 comments

tibiapejagalaalmost 8 years ago
I might partially or totally disagree with the original manifest, but this reply is repulsive. I would never want to have a &quot;senior&quot; like this.<p>So much emphasis on how senior he is, how junior you have to write something so wrong. How OP&#x27;s career is over. The 3rd point reads like navy seals copypasta but with HR instead.<p>If you don&#x27;t see any other way to deal with OP&#x27;s views than described in this belittling rant, than you are no more senior than he is.<p>And a minor nitpick about this rant&#x27;s top highlight:<p>&gt;Essentially, engineering is all about cooperation, collaboration, and empathy for both your colleagues and your customers.<p>This is a non-statement. Replace &#x27;engineering&#x27; with science, medicine, finance, customer service, politics, retail, programming etc., and it will sound as correct.
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pacalaalmost 8 years ago
&gt; And as for its impact on you: Do you understand that at this point, I could not in good conscience assign anyone to work with you? I certainly couldn’t assign any women to deal with this, a good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face, and even if there were a group of like-minded individuals I could put you with, nobody would be able to collaborate with them. You have just created a textbook hostile workplace environment.<p>Textbook thoughtcrime punishment. The heretic must be isolated and extirpated, with physical violence for good measure. Don&#x27;t you dare interact with him, or else you&#x27;ll be ostracized as well.
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edison85almost 8 years ago
Having read the full manifesto, I find myself agreeing with the author&#x27;s thought process for a bunch of his points and clearly disagreeing with others. He presented them well, not offensive at all, and if I had a discussion with him I&#x27;m sure he seems open to change certain beliefs if presented with ample evidence. I would generally love talking to this guy. Instead everyone shames him, tells him his mostly very valid thought process is sexist and his career is done. This guy woukd never discuss this with anyone and things will go on as they do today or worse he&#x27;ll ostracize the left completely and will go in his own bubble and no positive change. This is what happened with Trump, an acquaintance posted on Facebook how the gender wage gap was almost nonexistent at the same job, industry and role but how we should instead work towards empowering women to better deal with promotions and re entering work force after pregnancy and unanimously got destroyed by maybe a hundred fb friends. He removed most of them and started jut posting pro trump stuff and I don&#x27;t blame him
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zorpneralmost 8 years ago
<i>Perhaps more interestingly, the author does not appear to understand engineering.</i><p>This guy gets it. It&#x27;s a deep temptation to abstract engineering away from humanism, but the idea that code can solve problems is an immature understanding of software. People have the problems; people provide the solutions. Code is a tool &amp; intermediary, and hardly essential to the act of problem-solving.
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searealistalmost 8 years ago
&gt; You have probably heard about the manifesto a Googler (not someone senior) published internally about, essentially, how women and men are intrinsically different and we should stop trying to make it possible for women to be engineers, it’s just not worth it.<p>This sets the tone for the entire article: An emotionally driven rant that refutes nothing and argues against a strawman.
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Uhhrrralmost 8 years ago
This essay is just bad.<p>In section 1 the author presupposes that the facts presented in the original post are false (but then fluffs on presenting any evidence for this). Maybe he&#x27;s right! If someone else writes that piece, it would be a valuable contribution.<p>In section 2 he writes about the social aspect of engineering, which certainly exists, but pretends that being engaged and interested in the technical side of things doesn&#x27;t matter at all. Ignoring technical details while creating your planet-scale system is like trying to fly a C-130 in a vacuum.<p>Section 3 is straight bullying.
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Overtonwindowalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;m deeply troubled by the response to this &quot;manifesto&quot;. Pitchforks are out for this guy, and when they find him, it won&#x27;t be pretty. I think that&#x27;s wrong. He has expressed his opinion, and people are free to confront, and denounce him all they want. But this guy might lose his job. His career. All for voicing his opinion. I don&#x27;t think it matters that he did this internally. Had he stood up at a discussion in Palo Alto and said these words, the pitchforks would still be out. Our country has reached a dangerous fork in its evolution where the freedom to speak can literally ruin your life. There was a time when people were, and still are, shot for speaking their minds. Is this the natural evolution we are heading towards?
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TheCorehalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;d seriously like to know if the author meant this literally:<p>&gt; a good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face<p>If that&#x27;s indeed the case, isn&#x27;t that on itself a huge problem we should deal with? If someone is risking being a victim of physical violence on the workplace over disagreements on political positions we should be seriously concerned.
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to_bpralmost 8 years ago
Is there any other professional industry as politically divided and toxic as tech has become?<p>Is there any other industry in which private companies shove their &quot;values&quot; down the throats of their employees in the manner we experience in tech?
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interpol_palmost 8 years ago
It&#x27;s just embarrassing at this point that an engineer at a well known company like Google even <i>thinks</i> like this. (The original author, not Yonatan.)<p>Reading the original manifesto felt like something my 17-year-old self would write. Too clever and completely oblivious at the same time.
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kyrrealmost 8 years ago
&gt; (1) Despite speaking very authoritatively, the author does not appear to understand gender.<p>&gt; I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1) ... I am neither a biologist, a psychologist, nor a sociologist, so I’ll leave that to someone else.<p>heh
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maehwasualmost 8 years ago
&gt; What you just did was incredibly stupid and harmful. You just put out a manifesto inside the company arguing that some large fraction of your colleagues are at root not good enough to do their jobs, and that they’re only being kept in their jobs because of some political ideas.<p>The author seems to assume this is obviously false, and neatly avoids the fact that in many companies, industries, and academic settings, there are indeed a large fraction of people who are not good enough to do their jobs, and are only kept in those jobs because of political ideas.
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cameldrvalmost 8 years ago
The irony is that one of the touted business case reasons for diversity is that it gives a diversity of perspectives and ideas, which can be useful to solving a problem. I agree with this analysis. If we listen to Yontan though, any team that has a member with a different perspective will be punched in the face. That&#x27;s a very clear argument for homogenous teams, at least as long as you don&#x27;t want a workplace with constant fistfights.
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throwaway72695almost 8 years ago
I posted this in another thread where the entire thread got flagged. This response on medium is scary and demonstrates what I’m concerned about. At this point the left has gotten to a point where witch hunts, blacklisting, exclusion, and suggesting that people could acceptably be subject to violence, for thought crime are accepted and encouraged tactics.<p>I’m a closeted conservative in tech, hence the throwaway account. Some of what the manifesto said is overly broad or wrong headed, in particular at least from my perspective generalizing views held by conservatives on climate change and similar issues, but one thing in particular stood out: The left and by extension Google do not tolerate diversity of viewpoint or worldview. Diversity of race or sex is viewed as critical but real diversity, that of the lens through which people view the world is to be stomped out with prejudice. If you don’t agree with the leftist secular view you are a bigot. If you are religious you must apologize for your bigotry and convince others it is only a social activity or something private that won’t affect how you behave or what you believe in other spheres. As a conservative orthodox Catholic and a devotee of Saint Josemariá Escrivá, I feel like I have to hide my faith and my views. If people understood that my devotion to doing my work as perfectly and as generously as I can is driven by my desire to serve God and mankind they would be shocked and disappointed. Even worse, my views on the existence of an absolute unchanging morality would be viewed as bigotry even though I don’t advocate discrimination and am willing to happily work beside those who believe and practice differently. It is not enough that we work side by side and treat each other with respect, I must believe and accept leftist dogma in my heart or I am a bigot and I am unfit to write code, work with others, or function in a management role. From my perspective the exclusion, demonization and intolerance from the left for those who dare to merely believe and live their own lives differently is terrifying. I don’t know how we come back from the current state of things to a liberal, open society where diversity of belief and viewpoint is prized.
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lsh123almost 8 years ago
&quot;It’s true that women are socialized to be better at paying attention to people’s emotional needs and so on — this is something that makes them better engineers, not worse ones.&quot;<p>Looks like the author of this blog post agrees with the author of the manifesto on his main point.
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seibeljalmost 8 years ago
I won&#x27;t say anything positive or negative about either the original post or the rebuttal because publicly touching any of this is career suicide. But I will comment that as assertive the original author was about things, citing various facts and studies, was not the rebuttal similar in repeatedly saying the original author was wrong and citing his own studies? Can anyone in social science really say anything is fact? Social science is about the weakest &quot;science&quot; there is in terms of absolute proof and sureities
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ahmedahamidalmost 8 years ago
Quite honestly, the most concerning thing to me about this whole manifesto is the outright dismissive reaction it is getting from everyone.<p>I know that some people agree with the author and I want to see his point of view studied, analyzed and critiqued in the most objective and thorough manner possible. For instance, do we have evidence on gender biases among different engineering roles? If the answer is yes, is this bias due to organic inclinations attributable to inherent gender differences? Is any part of such inclinations - if any - historically&#x2F;socially constructed? If it is something that has historical roots, is imposing diversity rules and regulations a temporary&#x2F;transient measure necessary to counter an existing imbalance until unfair advantage is extenuated? Or is it something we need to maintain indefinitely?<p>Without rigorous examination of the claims in this manifesto, we are running the risk of having a growing base of believers of an under-scrutinized opinion, individuals who do not speak their minds solely due to social pressure.
Grue3almost 8 years ago
A good example of what senior managers at Google think of people who <i>actually write their code</i>. The manifesto writer is an idiot, but this Yonatan Zunger guy doesn&#x27;t paint himself in a good light here either.
Udikalmost 8 years ago
So basically Yonatan Zunger is saying that the fact the women are underrepresented among Google engineers depends entirely from the misogynistic attitude of the company, and that its interviewers are maschilist assholes. So, he says, it took him &quot;half of the past day&quot; to try to fix the mess caused by a guy that dared to suggest that <i>maybe</i> the company and its employees are not such misogynistic assholes after all. Excellent job!
evangelistaalmost 8 years ago
I do not like this article or the author&#x27;s approach to argumentation.<p>The author attempts to argue like this: &quot;I am so right I do not have to argue why I am right and even if I did, you would be too dumb to understand it. <i>waves hands around vaguely</i> there is lots of science proving everything I think is true. I am too lazy to cite any of it or even indicate what arguments you made specifically are wrong, online people back me up on this please. Therefore: SEXIST! YOU ARE A SEXIST PIG AND HAVE HURT PEOPLE&#x27;S FEELINGS AND I WOULD HAVE YOU FIRED!&quot; &lt;&#x2F;end article&gt;<p>This approach to arguing is exactly why I left the Democratic Party last year and won&#x27;t be coming back until it changes. The behavior of the online mobs supporting Liberal causes (especially in high tech) turned me off so thoroughly I can never return. Stereotyping everything you disagree with as racist, sexist or the general category of &quot;nazi&quot; no longer impresses me.<p>YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO START ACTUALLY BACKING UP YOUR ASSERTIONS, THE BULLYING APPROACH HAS STOPPED WORKING.<p>Anyways, so lets spend a minute talking about the piles of imaginary science the author believes to exist for a moment.<p>Are you sitting down? Zero. There is zero science, anywhere, stating that 50% of women MUST be engineers. There is none. The idea that 50% of engineers MUST be women is a WANT. It is a GOAL. It is a DESIRE. At no point in history has 50% of engineering EVER been done by women, WHY must we all agree that this is a rational objective?<p>Where the tech industry gets it wrong is that it has decided to RAM this opinion down everyone&#x27;s throats and force them to adhere to ever more stringent speech and behavioral codes and attempt to make everything in tech so bland, so PC, so placid, so devoid of argumentation or competition that perhaps we can vaguely tempt a woman or two into joining a bunch of sweaty engineers in a basement and chug Red Bull all night to push shitty code to a failing server on AWS.<p>Surely more training in micro-agressions is the problem keeping women away and not the disgusting pit stains. Right? After ten years of diversity summits, women who code, peer pressure, online mobs ranting...the net effect has been a completely imperceptible change in the number of women working at Facebook and Google. This approach and all the feel good antics and cheerleading surrounding it has failed.<p>Who needs imaginary science to show us that women don&#x27;t really want to be engineers when we have reality?<p>Yet we are all supposed to buy completely into the notion that at some point in the future, if all sexism and other barriers are removed, that 50% of engineers WILL be women. Why must that be true?<p>What I think the goal SHOULD be is that 100% of women should have mentorship, access to education, representation, engineering peers and early tutelage. Of the women who have talent at engineering, they should all be able to find placements in engineering if they do the work necessary.<p>And why is it always engineering? Why not coal mining? Why not nuclear engineering? Pig farming? Deep sea fishing? Plumbing? Carpentry? Why the incessant, unrelenting insistance from all corners that 50% of engineers MUST be women and no other profession?<p>Every time I ask this question, I am informed that: &quot;We have banned people from asking why 50% of nurses are not men.&quot;<p>Why have you banned people from asking this question? Have you banned them from asking this question because you are right? Or have you banned people from asking this question because the answer makes you uncomfortable and does not support your worldview?
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tvaughanalmost 8 years ago
And this is what happens when all we care about is if a person can balance a b-tree from memory in a job interview.
zwischenzugalmost 8 years ago
&#x27;I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1); if anyone wishes to provide details as to how nearly every statement about gender in that entire document is actively incorrect,¹ and flies directly in the face of all research done in the field for decades, they should go for it. But I am neither a biologist, a psychologist, nor a sociologist, so I’ll leave that to someone else.&#x27;<p>Ironic that he confuses gender and sex here, further emphasizing his ignorance.<p>The general point about flying &#x27;directly in the face of all research done in the field for decades&#x27; is not only not true, it&#x27;s absurdly so:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?q=autism+extreme+maleness+baron+cohen" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?q=autism+extreme+maleness+baro...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;iancommunity.org&#x2F;cs&#x2F;understanding_research&#x2F;extreme_male_brain" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;iancommunity.org&#x2F;cs&#x2F;understanding_research&#x2F;extreme_m...</a><p>and this exactly is in the area of &#x27;systematising&#x27; and &#x27;empathy&#x27; that the original author tries to provoke discussion on.<p>I also find it interesting that the original memo discusses supposed gender differences arising from sex that &#x27;women in tech&#x27; discussion frequently puts forward, viz that women are less likely to ask for pay rises.
jackfraseralmost 8 years ago
What an incredibly intellectually lazy way of attempting to deconstruct that manifesto this is!<p>&gt; 1.I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1); if anyone wishes to provide details as to how nearly every statement about gender in that entire document is actively incorrect<p>&quot;This is wrong, I don&#x27;t have to tell you why&quot; is a pitiful statement in and of itself, and perhaps more importantly, is not an argument. The author merely positions himself against the document with this, with no justification other than to reference fields that have shown themselves to have bias against reliable statistics relating to the subject matter in question.<p>&gt; Essentially, engineering is all about cooperation, collaboration, and empathy for both your colleagues and your customers.<p>Yes and no. Specialties exist for a reason, and fields like &quot;ux designer&quot;, &quot;customer success coach&quot;, etc. exist because there&#x27;s a clear need for people with those skillsets. If engineers were adept at that - and yes, of course some are, but most don&#x27;t seem to be - then those professions wouldn&#x27;t have broken out into their own domains of knowledge as quickly and at as large of a scale as they have.<p>That aside, this entire line of thought isn&#x27;t much of an argument, because:<p>&gt; If someone told you that engineering was a field where you could get away with not dealing with people or feelings, then I’m very sorry to tell you that you have been lied to.<p>I don&#x27;t think the manifesto author ever said that men were incapable of empathy, or that they should never use it. He does suggest that being able to separate oneself from emotion is useful in a technical argument; I&#x27;ll concur that ego can get in the way of making the right choice (e.g. Not Invented Here syndrome). There&#x27;s a clear difference between your own emotional state, and your ability to empathize with another&#x27;s.<p>In an ideal state, we are calm and collected with our own emotions and avoid letting them make decisions for us, while considering the emotions of others. Neurotypical people of all genders are entirely capable of doing this; the approach may differ, but if the author is at all suggesting that we need women in order to be able to have empathy in an engineering context, he&#x27;s essentially saying men are incapable of the same, which is palpably incorrect.<p>&gt; It’s true that women are socialized to be better at paying attention to people’s emotional needs and so on — this is something that makes them better engineers, not worse ones.<p>An unfounded assumption. Women are not merely socialized to be better at this; they&#x27;ve evolved to be better at it. This is true across every civilization in history; the gender role is an outcome of the evolved behaviour, which has teleological value in terms of its benefit to interpersonal relationships and successful propagation of family lines. Suggesting that it&#x27;s merely a &quot;socialized&quot; thing is part of a chain of argument that leads down the path of believing that all humans are blank slates oppressed into particular behaviours, which runs contrary to all the research. Stephen Pinker is a great resource if one wants to find out more about this.<p>&gt; What you just did was incredibly stupid and harmful. You just put out a manifesto inside the company arguing that some large fraction of your colleagues are at root not good enough to do their jobs, and that they’re only being kept in their jobs because of some political ideas.<p>Ad-hominems aside, the argument here is that people with different political ideas should simply stay quiet. The original manifesto author made it clear that he&#x27;s on-side with the growing number of people in the Western world that are becoming increasingly tired of being told that they aren&#x27;t allowed to present their opinions. The original essay was not mean, hurtful, hateful, or scathing; it may have been wrong, in one&#x27;s view, but to call it harmful implies the exact kind of emotion-based reasoning that we need to be able to avoid when dealing with sensitive or ego-bound topics.<p>&gt; I am no longer even at the company and I’ve had to spend half of the past day talking to people and cleaning up the mess you’ve made.<p>This isn&#x27;t your job, and nobody made you do that; if anything, you&#x27;ve been part of the Streisand Effect, whereing more and more people talking about something in order to &quot;clean up the mess&quot; simply spreads the mess wider.<p>&gt; Do you understand that at this point, I could not in good conscience assign anyone to work with you?<p>Do you think that the manifesto author is going to act like a Mad Men caricature and harass women or refuse to work with them? What evidence has made you think so? Is having a strict personal adherence to a corporate-approved philosophy a requirement at this workplace? How is that justifiable?<p>&gt; good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face,<p>How is physical violence even remotely a reasonable thing to suggest in response to an essay? I have got to assume that Zunger was actually _angry_ at the time of typing this, because the emotion - bordering on hatred - is evident in this last segment.<p>&gt; But our company is committed to maintaining a good environment for all of its people, and if one person is determined to thwart that, the solution is pretty clear.²<p>&quot;All of its people&quot; is a set that is known to contain a non-zero number of people that agree with this manifesto author. If the way that you maintain a good environment for your chosen group of people is to simply remove everyone that doesn&#x27;t perfectly fit the mold, it may be dishonest to use language that makes you sound magnanimous or ecumenical when the true goal really is division and a lack of diversity.<p>All in all, a poor response, not much better than the official one from the company, that does nothing to address the legitimate concerns raised and rather seeks to sweep the problems back under the rug for the comfort of all involved. It might work this time, and the next time, but eventually if there&#x27;s going to be any settled truth to this matter, we&#x27;ll have to have open discussions about it instead of simply shutting it down.
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gnlalmost 8 years ago
The amount of emotionally charged black and white thinking that permeates this debate is mind-boggling, as is the ability of the outraged side to create a straw man out of thin air through cherry-picking and blatant misinterpretation. Truly one of the most impressive displays of mental gymnastics I have seen and I&#x27;m not sure which is more terrifying - the idea that this is done unconsciously or consciously.<p>From the original manifesto:<p>&gt; [...] I value diversity and inclusion, am not denying that sexism exists, and don’t endorse using stereotypes. [...]<p>&gt; [...] Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. [...]<p>&gt; [...] If we can’t have an honest discussion about this, then we can never truly solve the problem. [...]<p>&gt; [...] Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story. [...]<p>&gt; [...] Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions. [...]<p>&gt; [...] I hope it’s clear that I’m not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn’t try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority. [...]<p>&gt; [...] I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism). [...]<p>Gizmodo&#x27;s summary:<p>&gt; In the memo, which is the personal opinion of a male Google employee and is titled “Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber,” the author argues that women are underrepresented in tech not because they face bias and discrimination in the workplace, but because of inherent psychological differences between men and women.<p>From Zunger&#x27;s post:<p>&gt; You have probably heard about the manifesto a Googler (not someone senior) published internally about, essentially, how women and men are intrinsically different and we should stop trying to make it possible for women to be engineers, it’s just not worth it.<p>How any person of average intelligence possessing a modest grasp of the English language can draw these conclusions is beyond me.<p>Granted there is an argument to be made for the manifesto&#x27;s author not doing the best possible job of expressing himself in such a way as to increase the likelihood of sparking a civil debate on what is clearly a very sensitive issue. I am also not the biggest fan of his preoccupation with the one-dimensional and in my opinion overly simplistic left&#x2F;right political spectrum.<p>I will not argue for or against the specific conclusions he draws in regard to the role of genetics in the different distribution of traits among men and women, as I have neither the time nor the interest to look into the research (nor the opportunity, really, as a number of links have been apparently omitted from the publication, which, one might assume, lead to sources the author was basing his arguments on).<p>What I do find fascinating however, and the reason I&#x27;m writing this, is that I see someone basically going &quot;guys, have we actually stopped to consider that maybe <i>that</i> could be one of the reasons why we&#x27;re observing <i>this</i> and if not why not - here&#x27;s what I think&quot; while doing everything humanly possible to emphasize that they are in no way denying that there is a problem and in no way suggesting that <i>that</i> is the only reason. And instead of getting &quot;yes we did and here&#x27;s what we concluded and why&quot; or &quot;no we didn&#x27;t, let&#x27;s talk about it&quot;, they&#x27;re viciously shamed and attacked for entertaining the very thought.<p>A comment here referred to this as thoughtcrime punishment and I couldn&#x27;t agree more. This is plain and simply dogma at work, and the way I see it, it has no place among intelligent people engaged in science and&#x2F;or engineering. And yet here we are.<p>We have no problem accepting that differing trait distribution between different genetic groups can be a significant factor in a disproportionate representation of some groups in certain fields - soldiers in combat roles, construction workers, athletes, etc. And yet when it comes to the brain, suggesting a similar difference is suddenly taboo.<p>Even before doing any research, the idea that the brain is somehow exempt from all of this seems highly questionable and would merit the most rigorous examination to confirm or reject.<p>Here&#x27;s a thought though - it doesn&#x27;t matter to this debate. We could talk about if&#x2F;why men are on average better&#x2F;worse than women in whatever and throw around studies until we are blue in the face, but in the end when someone wants to do a job, the only thing that should matter is - can that person deliver. We need to be focused on making sure that this is indeed the only thing that matters and let natural tendencies and capabilities produce whatever representation of genetic groups they produce and if it&#x27;s similar to the general population that&#x27;s fine and if it&#x27;s not, that&#x27;s fine too.<p>Let me emphasize again, that <i>we&#x27;re already doing this</i> in many fields. Everyone is not born equal. We know that&#x27;s true, we know enough about genetics to recognize that differing distribution of traits among genetic groups are a thing and yet we&#x27;re so terrified of being seen as racist or sexist, that we&#x27;ll keep a few precious blindspots no matter what and defend them to the death whenever someone dares suggest that we might want to shine a light on them.<p>Another thought - there are children growing up right now that don&#x27;t understand race. I guess some might even be lucky enough that they don&#x27;t understand gender. They see different people with different skin, hair, features, body shapes, genitals, skills, manners, likes and dislikes. They&#x27;d do perfectly fine going through life with the simple understanding that &#x27;yes, people are different&#x27;, but then we get to them and explain how, you see, this group of people is oppressing that group of people, these people are like this and those are like that, and instead of seeing individuals we teach them to see the emotionally charged baggage-ladden labels that we insist on slapping on everyone - black people and white people, men and women, gay and straight, African American, Hispanic American, Chinese American, Native American and so on.<p>Significant, lasting cultural change doesn&#x27;t happen overnight, it takes decades and it takes children looking at the world with fresh eyes and adults capable of recognising their biases and making sure to die without passing them on in order to make place for someone better.<p>Of course, discrimination is a problem that needs some solution now rather than in decades. It&#x27;s likely too late for the adults among us to erase our biases. We can recognize we have them, we can minimize them and we can put measures in place to make sure they can&#x27;t do too much damage - blind paper reviews&#x2F;auditions&#x2F;tests as well as bias awareness training strike me as solutions that can only do good.<p>Among other things, we&#x27;re most definitely missing out on brilliant female engineers in CS due to sexism and an often toxic environment, which is clearly a lose-lose situation for everyone. I think it&#x27;s worth considering that we might just be missing out on brilliant male engineers as well, due to affirmative action, which is also sexism.<p>Forcefully engineering and moulding society into whatever shape someone decided it&#x27;s supposed to have through positive discrimination isn&#x27;t change. It&#x27;s the appearance of change, while fueling social conflict, hurting economical, technological and scientific progress and drawing the lines that divide us, thus reinforcing the very foundation of racism, sexism, religious intolerance and any of the countless other stupid reasons we come up with to fight each other - seeing people as members of a group rather than individuals.<p>I&#x27;d like to suggest we take a step back and reevaluate whether we&#x27;re more interested in pragmatic solutions that genuinely lead to a stronger, happier and more harmonious society or in playing make-believe and indulging in some justice fantasy with a very questionable basis in reality.
lsh123almost 8 years ago
When people I manage ask me about career advice, I always start from &quot;Love what you do, do what you love&quot;. Over the years I saw a few examples of people who were pushed into mathematics, computer science, etc. by parents or environment but who didn&#x27;t like it. Some changed their careers (my high school classmate opened a backery after a few years at Google - she absolutely loves it and would never go back to technology.<p>I believe we are all different and this is a good thing. The real hard social issue I think is that not all jobs are considered lucrative by the society (which is also reflected in the pay). In the ideal world, there would be good well paying jobs for everyone to fulfill their dreams.
smithsmithalmost 8 years ago
This point has been already made by Eric Raymond in his article &quot;Women in computing: first, get the problem right&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;esr.ibiblio.org&#x2F;?p=2118" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;esr.ibiblio.org&#x2F;?p=2118</a>
es2017almost 8 years ago
I am a female engineer and I partially agreed with the original manifesto. To be pragmatic, I rather work with a qualified SWE than someone hired by lowering the hiring bar due to political correctness. I am also fed up with the empty assumption that diversity will bring positive productivity. What is the problem with meritocracy? I think any competitive SWE (regardless of the gender) will not be intimidated by such manifesto.
elevenfistalmost 8 years ago
Wow, I can&#x27;t believe these comments. I give. HN is stupid. Programmers are by and large stupid, we just have a set of specialized skills.<p>I&#x27;m starting to understand now why so much code is documented so poorly.<p>And yet, there&#x27;s smart posts like these that give me some glimmer of hope. Thanks for stemming the tide. I hope those of us not totally brain dead can figure something out.
andy_pppalmost 8 years ago
Ugh... having staff is going to be a pain the the arse isn&#x27;t it :-&#x2F;<p>I&#x27;m guessing if this guy knew everyone he worked with, say ~ 50 people, he would not <i>dare</i> to write something like this.<p>And yes I&#x27;m talking about <i>both</i> of these manifestos.
gnlalmost 8 years ago
Something just occurred to me, which isn&#x27;t directly related to the original article, but is I believe relevant to the debate that ensued around it. Apart from any ethical, social and economical considerations, one of the easiest arguments to make against sexism is that even from the point of view of pure self-interest it is plain stupid. Passing on a perfectly qualified candidate because of what&#x27;s between their legs (assuming that&#x27;s not directly relevant to the position in question) is completely irrational and self-sabotaging.<p>While there may be high quality studies proving a preferable distribution of certain relevant traits in men or women, that information gives you at best some minimally higher chance that if you were to pick someone at random from the group with the better distribution they might be slightly more capable in that one particular way, maybe, which may or may not result in a higher qualification for the position depending on countless other factors and their combination or interaction with the trait in question. In other words it&#x27;s completely worthless compared to the much more precise and specific information that you can gather from directly evaluating the individual in front of you.<p>Here&#x27;s a thought experiment on the topic of enforced diversity. Disclaimer - I&#x27;m pulling the numbers out of the air and they aren&#x27;t relevant. The example is also a little contrived for the sake of argument, I&#x27;m just trying to illustrate a principle.<p>Let&#x27;s say we have a medical university that admits 100 candidates. The admission tests are administered and evaluated blindly, the professionals responsible for the evaluation aren&#x27;t aware of anyone&#x27;s gender, ethnicity, age, looks, they don&#x27;t have any information beyond the content of the tests. They have also undergone bias awareness training, just in case, because why not.<p>The 500 candidates who apply are ranked according to their test results. In addition to these anti-bias measures, the university has a diversity goal of admitting 50% women (medicine is probably not the best example for this, but bear with me here). Now whether the enforcement of those goals is written in stone or strongly recommended with whatever pressure&#x2F;incentives behind it, the result is quotas.<p>As it happens, for whatever mix of reasons, genetical, prenatal, environmental or social, at this particular time in this particular place only 40% of the top 100 happen to be women. The diversity goals however dictate that 50% must be admitted, so 10 men will be refused admission in favor of ten less qualified women. Let&#x27;s say for the sake of argument that they all graduate successfully.<p>And now let&#x27;s say I have to undergo a medical procedure and pick a doctor. I know for a fact that all 10 doctors available to me have been to the very same university. Not being an MD myself and not having any recommendations, I am in no position to judge their qualifications, so all I have to rely on is gut feeling and metadata. And I know for a fact that there&#x27;s a higher chance that a female doctor from that university has been admitted on quotas instead of skill and I&#x27;d know that chance is higher even without the information how many women were in the top 100 because of the very possibility which does not exist for men. And now I end up in a position where gender mainstreaming and diversity efforts, in particular quotas, somehow managed to make sexism a reasonable, rational basis for making a decision, which wouldn&#x27;t have occurred to me in a thousand years.<p>Without quotas, I have no good reason to care about my doctor&#x27;s genitals or the color of their skin. With them I just might.<p>If that&#x27;s not shooting yourself in the foot, I don&#x27;t know what is.
dlwdlwalmost 8 years ago
There&#x27;s a bit if immaturity in the manifesto despite it being very rational and well-reason. In my mind, it&#x27;s the immaturity of a rich kid who is very intelligent, having had the best teachers, and also well meaning and trying to do good.<p>To understand what affirmative action actually tries to do it must be understood that there are 2 primary types of moats. One is a &quot;Test Moat&quot; that tests required abilities. A firefighter being able to carry 100 pounds is an example. The other is a &quot;Privilege Moat&quot;. This is primarily based around gating access to resources to a privileged few to create abundance. This gating is socially created and maintained.<p>These moats have a lot of overlap. Asking a candidate if they know what a &#x27;function&#x27; is is a simple type of test moat. Asking a web developer to create a red-black tree on the fly is a privilege moat.<p>(Google is in a bit of a strange spot as there is a widespread belief that web developer who DOES know how to create a red-black tree on the fly is better than one who doesn&#x27;t. Most companies do not have the attraction or excess capacity to actually care about this, they take what they can get. (or stupidly mimic the Google process) They don&#x27;t have the bandwidth to care about privilege moats.)<p>The moat being sacred is the capstone for the delusion that allows selfishness to be hidden and prevents growth of moral guilt. Privilege moats not only gate access but also must assuage guilt.<p>Test moats naturally grow into privilege moats over time. Especially as the tested skill becomes commoditized. The existing base naturally feels threatened.<p>Affirmative action is about de-sacredizing privilege moats. It is primarily destructive in nature. There&#x27;s no nice way to shit over something. It&#x27;s primary purpose is to destroy specific types of culture. Even today, the culture of &quot;White man&#x27;s Burden&quot; is still being destroyed and is generally considered a good thing that it is.<p>In Google&#x27;s case, de-sacredization may primarily be about recognizing that certain skills are nice to have but not NECESSARY. It lowers the bar because new candidates will no longer be able to keep up with passionate Haskell discussion during lunchtime on break from adjusting CSS.<p>Going a step further, it is de-sacredization of the idea that your work must be your life. That you must live and breath code to be a &quot;real&quot; coder. This idea CANNOT co-exist with the idea that coding needs to become a core competency. I don&#x27;t live and breath reading and writing but I still read and write.<p>This touches on the author&#x27;s valid point that certain positions have more stress and that the development of male gender roles to be more feminine has lagged behind. (I have a pet theory that this is driven by lack of economic incentive and is due to Americas obsession over money. Cultures that value psychological and familial happiness&#x2F;health may be further along in developing the flexibility of male gender roles)<p>However, this valid point is mixed up with the real privilege moats that should be adjusted. The author is overall well meaning and representative of valid thoughts and ideas and deserves none of the flak he has taken. He simply had more courage. Bring up these ideas and absorbing them to create a counter-idea is what can inspire real change. Many self-described liberals are very hypocritical in this respect, creating privilege moats based on capacity for self censorship.<p><i></i><p>What I&#x27;ve mostly described here are bars that are lowered because they are needlessly high. However another motivation for lowering bars are their second order effects. It creates role models and opens up a potential life path in the eyes of children. It makes a domain seem friendlier and more enforced (less unsaid social requirements).<p>It can also be somewhat apologetic in extreme cases. The affirmative action movements for African Americans in the U.S. and the lower castes in India come to mind. Without affirmative action, the initial momentum and privilege for certain subgroups would continuously compound and maintain tiers of ability&#x2F;people. All tiers would theoretically grow together, but the relative distance would grow. Capitalism does this too via the initial capital allocation.<p>Growing relative distance creates a sense of unfairness and unless there is infinite abundance, market auction dynamics will cause the upper tiers to have almost everything. Very poor people can have instant connection to their friends via facebook but still be fighting a headwind when trying to pull themselves out of poverty. (There is expectation that the government maintains a decent privilege moat so that its citizens can live abundant lives, enforced with guns if necessary. The only governments that can&#x27;t do this are those where moats of ineffective because the issue is already within the moat. China&#x2F;India have their hands full.)<p>Notice how affirmative action for things like education (candles lighting candles) is much more accepted than affirmative action for capital (zero sum). The tech-gender-gap story is somewhere in the middle. Does tech create enough abundance that it can effectively be infinite for all people int he bay area? Is it artificial scarcity due to greedy execs? Will lowering the cultural bar for Google cause it to become uncool and cause the cool smart people to leave?<p>who knows...
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lol2143651almost 8 years ago
The easiest way to see the article is just fighting a strawman of the original manifesto is to notice the article never directly quotes the manifesto.
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CalChrisalmost 8 years ago
[flagged]<p>Mods, you can have all of my points if you&#x27;ll unflag this story. It is extremely well written by someone who could well have been in the OP&#x27;s chain of command and who knows the company culture.<p>Edit: thanks mods, the article has been unflagged.
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carsongrossalmost 8 years ago
As with the original post, I look forward to the thoughtful, tightly reasoned and unemotional discussion that this post will generate.
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lol2143651almost 8 years ago
Not an argument
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Scaevolusalmost 8 years ago
&quot;(2) Perhaps more interestingly, the author does not appear to understand engineering.&quot;<p>The manifesto&#x27;s author has a degree in Biology, not Computer Science. He probably learned enough programming on his own time to pass a technical interview, but never learned the &quot;softer&quot; parts of a CS degree that address working effectively as a team.<p>Programmers without degrees miss bits of the standard curriculum, often rigorous algorithmic analysis, but deciding that empathy is irrelevant to such a communal enterprise is a unique deduction!
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