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Startups should not use React

332 pointsby nbmhalmost 8 years ago

33 comments

cbhlalmost 8 years ago
It&#x27;s worth noting this &quot;you can&#x27;t sue us for violating your patents if you use our non-free open source software&quot; is working as designed.<p>Facebook claims that if <i>every</i> company adopted a React-like license, that software patents as we know it would basically die. It&#x27;s worth noting that both Google and Facebook&#x27;s patent lawyers are generally of the opinion that software patents are net bad, but differ in their opinions of how to express that intent without exposing their companies to additional risk from patent trolls.<p>If you want to be acquired, then this is the opposite of what you want. You file patents for every part of the product you can; you audit your dependencies to avoid copyleft (AGPL and GPL) and React-like licenses, so your software can be folded into a 100% closed source product or shut down or whatever your acquirer wants.<p>If you run a start-up, and you&#x27;re worried about the React license, you should be speaking to your own legal counsel about the best way forward.
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plumaalmost 8 years ago
Nerds shouldn&#x27;t write opinion pieces about subject domains they don&#x27;t understand.<p>Seriously, stop this. Sometimes you just need to admit you have no idea what you&#x27;re talking about and shut up.<p>The author honestly thinks using Preact or Inferno could protect them from patent lawsuits. Oh, wait, maybe &quot;Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs&quot; so better use Vue and Cycle.<p>Unless you actually know<p>1) which patents Facebook holds and<p>2) which patents are relevant to each framework&#x2F;library (i.e. React and various its alternatives)<p>stop giving people legal advice about which library they should be using.<p>The cosmic irony would be if Facebook didn&#x27;t hold any patents covering React to begin with but DID hold patents covering parts of Angular, Ember, Vue and Preact, over which they can sue who they like because Facebook never gave them a patent grant for those. Sounds far-fetched? It isn&#x27;t because we don&#x27;t know which actual patents these could be and who holds them.<p>Or for all you know Google might sue you. Or Apple.<p>This isn&#x27;t a discussion, this is literally just a bunch of nerds ranting on the Internet about problems they don&#x27;t sufficiently understand, playing Three Blind Men with the elephant that is Software Patents.
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franciscopalmost 8 years ago
The author is making assumptions about what Open Source is and what should or shouldn&#x27;t be. While many developers would like Open Source to be about &quot;creating communities to build better software together&quot; (myself included), open source just means that everyone can read the code.<p>Different developers and companies might use Open Source for different reason, included but not limited to: reduce Q&amp;A, brand relevance, increase hiring power, strategic positioning, ideals that code should be _libre_, etc. Some companies and devs might even want several of those!<p>In this line, Facebook is a private corporation who I think we all agree their main reason for releasing React.js or any code at all doesn&#x27;t seem to be purely idealistic. I would say strategic position (the best tool in the dev world, notably against Angular) and increasing their hiring power are really high within their reasons to release Open Source.<p>It is patently absurd to tell companies what to do and patronizing to tell developers what to do. Also, something that I don&#x27;t see anyone arguing for&#x2F;against is why so many big companies, even ones competing with Facebook, can use React.js freely and without worries? It&#x27;s a point that anyone arguing against React is conveniently ignoring but I&#x27;d love to hear about.
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scandoxalmost 8 years ago
Trust. Trust. Trust and Trust again. My brain becomes exhausted within seconds of reading a licence. Not just because I&#x27;m lazy, but because I know that however closely I think I&#x27;m reading it, I probably won&#x27;t be reading it closely enough to be 100% sure of my conclusions (viz. the differences of opinion here from people that actually have read this thing).<p>So what do I do? I trust certain organisations and I don&#x27;t trust others.<p>No-one in their right mind can trust Facebook. You might as well trust the Ocean.
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sheetjsalmost 8 years ago
There was a time when React was Apache v2! <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;facebook&#x2F;react&#x2F;blob&#x2F;3bbed150ab58a07b0c4faf64126b4c9349eecfea&#x2F;LICENSE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;facebook&#x2F;react&#x2F;blob&#x2F;3bbed150ab58a07b0c4fa...</a> shows that license.<p>Has anyone seriously explored forking React from the last Apache v2 version?
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jasonkesteralmost 8 years ago
I really like the idea behind this license.<p>They want to see a world where software patents no longer exist. So they write a term into their licensing that makes it really difficult for people who <i>do</i> like software patents to use their stuff.<p>I think I will move my projects over to a similar license. The only thing I would change would be to broaden it to invalidate if your company sued <i>anybody</i> over <i>any</i> patent.<p>If everybody did that, maybe software patents would finally go away.
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vim_wannabealmost 8 years ago
Does this mean I should primarily use services from startups that use React, so that they won&#x27;t get acquired and the service shut down?
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matthewmacleodalmost 8 years ago
FUD, FUD, FUD. Pure FUD.<p>There are, AFAIK, no known patents on React. This means you can go ahead and sue Facebook for patent violations to your heart&#x27;s content. The license they granted to you to use any of their patents applied to React (of which there are none) is terminated, and you can merrily continue using React.<p>If this is incorrect, and Facebook actually do hold patents on React, then all of the popular alternatives almost certainly infringe on them as well. So, the worst-case scenario is no different.
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chrisco255almost 8 years ago
Do most software startups even have patentable technology? I&#x27;m rather curious about this. Most consumer and SaaS apps I know of are built on non-patented software so I generally question this advice.<p>The fridge example was a case in point of how ridiculously low the odds of any company getting into patent litigation with Facebook are. To go to battle with FB you&#x27;re gonna need millions and it&#x27;s going to take years. That&#x27;s not a light decision.
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danielrhodesalmost 8 years ago
Are companies getting asked about React in M&amp;A due diligence or has any lawyer recommended this, because otherwise this post is pure clickbait.
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thomyorkiealmost 8 years ago
&gt; If all giants agreed to open source under the “BSD + patents” scheme, cross-adoption would grind to a halt. Why? If Google released Project X under “BSD + Patents”, and Amazon really liked it, rather than adopting it and losing their right to ever sue Google for patents, they would go off and build it on their own.<p>This seems like a reasonable argument, but it doesn&#x27;t seem to have deterred several big name companies from using React. Airbnb, netflix, and dropbox for example.
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plumaalmost 8 years ago
Aside from the validity of the article&#x27;s claims about patents (see my other tirades about that) I&#x27;m not sure the point even makes sense.<p>React, the library, is at its core a glorified templating system. It provides plenty of escape hatches that make migration as well as inclusion of foreign UI components and libraries a breeze. It&#x27;s stupidly simple to migrate away from.<p>If you are a high valuation startup looking to get acquired for your technology (rather than acquihired) I find it extremely unlikely your valuation hinges on your frontend code. And even if it does I find it extremely unlikely your frontend is tied so closely to React you won&#x27;t be able to spend, say, 1MM replacing React with Vue or what have you (maybe at the cost of a little pizzazz).<p>If your frontend is animation-heavy, that likely doesn&#x27;t live in React land. If your frontend is mostly static, it should be trivial to replace React as well.<p>If your startup is valuable, being sued over some frontend library is probably the least of your concerns. If the company looking to acquire you has enough cash in the bank to sue Facebook, they have far more than enough cash in the bank to replace React.
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ameliusalmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;m <i>not</i> using React for <i>another</i> reason. I don&#x27;t agree with the way they treat their users (i.e., as a product).
npadalmost 8 years ago
What happened to the &quot;software patents are ridiculous and should never be granted&quot; argument?<p>Now it seems that the same sort of people advancing the anti-patent argument are angry about FB&#x27;s licence. This seems like pretty muddled thinking.
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hoodoofalmost 8 years ago
&quot;So you&#x27;ve sewn up the market eh? Here&#x27;s your check for $500million.&quot;<p>&quot;But don&#x27;t you want to know what technology we built it with?&quot;<p>&quot;No.&quot;
epicidealmost 8 years ago
&gt; If there is no chance of igniting a community, there is no reason to open source.<p>I see most of this article as a dangerous way of thinking, but especially the above.<p>The mentality I get from this quote (especially combined with its context) is basically: I should only open source something I&#x27;m working on if I can build a community around it (that I control&#x2F;influence&#x2F;benefit from).<p>Open sourcing your software should be the default. If I make a tool or small library&#x2F;function, I would more look for a reason NOT to open source it. When I can&#x27;t think of one, I will open it up, regardless of whether or not there is a &quot;chance of igniting a community&quot;.
BukhariHalmost 8 years ago
Can someone please share what patents cover react?<p>Because if they&#x27;re revoking patents that don&#x27;t cover react then there should be no problem to continue using react right?
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skrebbelalmost 8 years ago
This is a badly written article full of FUD. It&#x27;s written by an angry backend engineer, not a lawyer, and it shows.<p>He goes from this:<p>&gt; <i>The instant you sue Facebook, your patent rights for React — and any other Facebook ‘open source’ technology you happen to use) — are automatically revoked.</i><p>To this:<p>&gt; <i>If you use React, you cannot go against Facebook for any patent they hold. Full period.</i><p>&quot;Full period&quot;, really? Because the first does not imply the second. This is now how patent law works.<p>Now, I&#x27;m not a lawyer either, but broad assertions like these should tell you that there&#x27;s emotion at work here, not reason. In his fourth update, he made a list of companies that add something about patents to their open source licenses, implying that somehow that that proves something.<p>So the thing that people confuse here is patents and copyrights. The BSD license grants you the right to use works copyrighted by Facebook people and contributors. The patents clause, further, promises that should Facebook hold any patents that cover the OSS, they won&#x27;t use them against you, unless you sue them first.<p>There is the whole idea floating around the internet that a BSD license somehow ensures that nobody will sue you for patent infringement. I really don&#x27;t understand where this comes from. Hell, Android is Apache Licensed (which includes a patent grant) and still anyone who makes an Android phone has to pay license fees to all kinds of patent trolls (Microsoft most notably). These things are totally separate.<p>So first, if you sue Facebook for patents, you lose their patent grant (so they can sue you back, which everybody always does anyway - it&#x27;s the only defense companies have in patent wars). But you don&#x27;t lose the BSD license or anything. That&#x27;s not how it works. All you lose is Facebook&#x27;s promise not to sue you because you use React.<p>Secondly, and this is the core point, patents don&#x27;t cover code, they cover ideas. Any patents that Facebook might have that, right or wrong, cover React, will surely be written broad enough that they also cover Preact, Inferno, Vue.js probably, and I bet also Angular. Not using React but one of these other libraries therefore makes no difference - in both cases, Facebook can use their React-ish patents to sue you.<p>To my understanding, patent lawsuits rarely get to the nitty gritty details of actual patents in reality. It does not matter whether a Facebook patent written broadly actually covers Vue.js or not - in practice, more often than not, companies will compare the height of the patent stacks they have, and agree on a settlement based on that.<p>All this patent grant says is that Facebook gets to use their patents that cover OSS to make their stack of paper a bit higher. Like they would if they hadn&#x27;t made a patent grant at all.<p>So, repeat after me: using open source does not shield you from patent infringment lawsuits.
CityWandereralmost 8 years ago
What makes the PATENTS file legally binding? If I install React via NPM&#x2F;Yarn, or even as a dependency of another project, I will not see this file.<p>LICENSE is a pretty common convention and you could argue I should seek out this file in every one of my dependencies&#x27; dependencies - but how would I know to look for PATENTS?<p>Are all statements in the code base legally binding? Could they be hidden in a source file somewhere?
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vladimir-yalmost 8 years ago
Can the title be generalized? Like don&#x27;t use anything from FB?
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codingdavealmost 8 years ago
Even if everything in this article were 100% correct, which is clearly arguable, think about how this would truly play out. Company X would sue Facebook. Facebook would sue them back for using React... and then... lawsuits would ensue. Attorneys would do their things. Cases would be argued out of court. Lots of legal stuff would be going on, and plenty of time would be had for the engineers to select and move to a new framework.<p>Yes, I think there are problems with the license, and I&#x27;m not using React. But do I really think those problems will result in some scenario where you have an overnight show-stopper of your business because of it? Extremely unlikely.<p>Startups need to stop fearing the law and start understanding it.
k__almost 8 years ago
What is the safe alternative here?<p>I mean probably FB got patents.<p>and<p>Probably they have at least one that covers things React can do.<p>Almost every framework moved to components and virtual DOM.<p>So there is a big chance that any framework out there could infringe some of these React patents.<p>So their either can<p>revoke your React license when you sue them<p>or<p>Sue you over patent infringement if you don&#x27;t use React
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afro88almost 8 years ago
There were a lot of people in the older thread about the patents stuff saying things like &quot;well, are you ever going to sue Facebook?? You don&#x27;t need to worry about the patents stuff&quot;.<p>But consider this: Facebook do something disastrous, like leak a bunch of private or financial data and it affects you really badly. There&#x27;s a class action against Facebook. Now you can&#x27;t join it, because you don&#x27;t wanna rewrite your app without React to ensure Facebook can&#x27;t counter sue over a patent that may or may not exist on React.
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gueloalmost 8 years ago
This doesn&#x27;t convince me. As a consumer patents and patent lawsuits are almost always bad. Patents reduce options in the market, lawsuits between companies waste resources, startups being acquired reduce market options. The only real argument is that it will prevent communities from forming. But I don&#x27;t buy it. Open source needs competition too, monolythic ecosystems are bad. As an example, Apple didn&#x27;t want to contribute to gcc so they created LLVM which is a boon to everybody.
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tchaffeealmost 8 years ago
I wonder if Facebook&#x27;s claims that they are doing this in order to make patents useless would have legal standing. In other words, if they become &quot;evil&quot; about this patent clause at some point in the future and try to enforce this in the bad ways that people are imagining <i>might</i> happen, then doesn&#x27;t Facebook&#x27;s clearly and publicly stated intentions hurt any claim they would make which goes against those intentions?
williamle8300almost 8 years ago
Facebook is like the Disney in the tech world. They want to be that trove of intellectual property.<p>They take free-to-use stuff (Disney is cheap ripoff of Hans Christian Anderson&#x27;s fables), and create &quot;magical&quot; stuff that they protect with their arsenal of lawyers.<p>If Facebook is able to pull the wool over our eyes this time... OSS is gonna be in a bad place in the next century just like how Disney single-handedly lobbied to change public domain laws in America.
blackoilalmost 8 years ago
Someone with knowledge should bring clarity to all this noise!<p>My understanding is, if I sue FB for some patents, they can sue me back with any patents they may hold on React. We do not know of any such patents they own. So practically I am no safer if I use preact&#x2F;vue or even Angular, since they may own some patents that cover those tech.<p>tldr; Do not sue FB unless you have muscles.
bitLalmost 8 years ago
It truly seems non-mature businesses should stop relying on open-source with &quot;baggage&quot; and utilize only free software (AGPL3+) that has dual-licensing for commercial use with support as e.g. in Qt, unless you are 100% sure for your product lifecycle you won&#x27;t get into direct business collision with the &quot;baggage&quot; author.
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hoodoofalmost 8 years ago
&quot;Look, we were going to buy you for $500million but our thorough due diligence has turned over a rather nasty stone that you probably wished we didn&#x27;t look under. You know what I mean don&#x27;t you? YES - we found out your dirty little secret that you&#x27;re using ReactJS. Due to this, we have decided to pull the deal in favor of your competitor who uses AngularJS. What you need to understand is that although you&#x27;ve cornered the market with your superb software and business model, we are dead serious about never buying companies that have built on ReactJS. We have a deep, and we think entirely valid, concern that Facebook will, at a point in time, suddenly pull the carpet from under you and Mark Zuckerberg will be laughing at us saying &#x27;suckers... we sure got you with the whole ReactJS ruse didn&#x27;t we!&#x27;&quot;<p>&quot;We&#x27;re also not very enthused about you building on Amazon - surprised you&#x27;d take a risk like that, it doesn&#x27;t indicate much business sense.&quot;<p>&quot;Sorry to say, but your business, due to the ReactJS decision, is worth $0.&quot;
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jlebrechalmost 8 years ago
my reason is that your app doesn&#x27;t need the whiz bang reactiveness of react of any other frontend framework just yet. it&#x27;s just extra overhead.
halfnibblealmost 8 years ago
I&#x27;ve been saying this for months. Don&#x27;t use React!
notaboutdavealmost 8 years ago
Easy workaround: Install Preact. No code changes required, at least not for me last year.
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dimillianalmost 8 years ago
Yeah because small startups will totally go after Facebook. Make sense. Wow.
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