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Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

118 pointsby justinucdover 7 years ago

27 comments

aecorredorover 7 years ago
&quot;While coding boot camps had many course listings on JavaScript, Ruby, and web development, they had none that covered product management, wireframing, cloud computing, DevOps, or Agile methodologies&quot;<p>I have a 4 year computer science degree and I didn&#x27;t learn any of the listed topics either, so I&#x27;m not sure if the article is implying that other institutions do prepare new grads for these topics. The main advantage I see from bootcamps is that you basically code intensely for 4 months, learn the most important stuff to be productive (at least in small scale) right away, and then you&#x27;re able to tackle more in depth topics by yourself.
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Sivart13over 7 years ago
I think it&#x27;s a big leap from &quot;two large bootcamps have closed&quot; to &quot;the bootcamp industry is shutting down&quot;.<p>Like anything else, there was a big race to capture the market once Dev Bootcamp proved it could work, and now the market is correcting itself. No reason to think bootcamps are going to stop existing altogether.
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geebeeover 7 years ago
I think that bootcamps actually can work well for people who already have highly honed analytical and logical reasoning skills, but for whatever reason haven&#x27;t gotten involved in programming. For instance, a linguistics or philosophy major, or maybe a pure math major, who hasn&#x27;t done any programming. For example, in a math class on graph theory, we essentially did DFS and BFS, but through proof, not through code.<p>I think one of the reasons bootcamps may be closing is there just aren&#x27;t enough people like this to train. 6 weeks can do amazing things for people who come in with years of intense analytical training, but it&#x27;s not a curriculum that can create that core skill in 6 weeks - that takes years - actually, decades.
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randomdrakeover 7 years ago
I&#x27;m glad they&#x27;re going away.<p>&gt; While coding boot camps had many course listings on JavaScript, Ruby, and web development, they had none that covered product management, wireframing, cloud computing, DevOps, or Agile methodologies. In other words, they don’t teach students the other important entrepreneurial tech skills. This makes sense seeing how their focus is coding. But as I stated in my last article, many recruiters are not just looking for engineers, but DevOps engineers – those who have strong leadership, communication, and team-building skills. Being a coding god is one skill set, but knowing how to work collaboratively on a technical team and manage a product is another skill set in itself.<p>This type of belief in what &quot;coding&quot; is, is hugely responsible for both the rise and fall of these horribly designed, while possibly well-intended, &quot;bootcamps.&quot;<p>Being a good software developer has absolutely <i>nothing</i> to do with &quot;important entrepreneurial tech skills.&quot; Knowing how to tackle problems, envision loops and algorithms, write pseudocode, understand the basics of how requests on the Internet work, or how your computer accesses databases or files; these are skills of a good software developer.<p>The end goal of being a software developer is not CEO.<p>&quot;many recruiters are not just looking for engineers, but DevOps engineers&quot;<p>No, recruiters all over the world are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year because they can&#x27;t find any competent programmers anymore. There are hundreds of people who were taught how to write a conditional in Ruby on Rails available, but ask them to tackle a problem like: &quot;how would you store 1 million strings, search through them while caching results, and make sure only certain individuals can access certain strings,&quot; and you get a deer in the headlights look. So recruiters don&#x27;t ask questions like that anymore. They ask questions that can be simply memorized and regurgitated.<p>When there&#x27;s no difference between cramming for your History 101 mid-term and a technical interview for a software developer, we&#x27;re not in a good spot.<p>The sooner we can dispel the myth that programming and software is just &quot;coding,&quot; &quot;hustling,&quot; and &quot;entrepreneurial skills&quot; the sooner companies won&#x27;t have to pony up over $150k&#x2F;yr to find a competent software developer.
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sdenton4over 7 years ago
So I think this is completely wrong. Bootcamps are providing a route to jobs that doesn&#x27;t involve taking another for years it for a university degree; it&#x27;s a massive gain in efficiency.<p>By being smaller, bootcamps should have more ability to pivot content to match market demands, and give students advice on directions to persue. Front end development needs for entry level people are getting satisfied, so it&#x27;s time to how some new teachers and refocus curriculum. Camps need to market as great learning spaces, rather than throwing their whole rep behind a single specially.<p>The notion that the space is overcrowded is bullshit; it just depends where you set your sights. I don&#x27;t think we would call university education an overcrowded space, in spite of serving many orders of magnitude more students than the bootcamps currently are... One can argue that there are too many law schools, charging to much to create too many entry level lawyers. Hand wringing about these two camps closing is like worrying that there are too many law schools specializing in bankruptcy law.<p>Ultimately I think the closures are more about these two companies failing to adapt than any kind of general lesson about bootcamp education.
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thegaynglerover 7 years ago
These bootcamps are too basic for starters. They never take you beyond the basics. Secondly, the industry has changed. You need to know more things than you did previously. Even computer science grads aren&#x27;t necessarily &quot;ready&quot; for the workforce. Education is behind in general instead of ingrained into the community with which it wishes to operate. They are always lagging behind or even way behind.<p>On some level I feel as though businesses need to get real and just pick someone for the job even entry level. There is nothing wrong with a business investing in its talent rather than expecting everyone to come in with prepackaged with everything you want them to know. Most of the people hiring these days didn&#x27;t know how to do any of the stuff people are doing when they come out of bootcamp when they started their careers.
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eric_bover 7 years ago
Why do people think a 12 week course will make a non-technical person ready for a junior developer role? Most developers I know have years of deep experience with computers before becoming professional programmers. (Things like fixing driver issues, installing linux, patching games etc).<p>I have several friends who went to bootcamps had no deep technical interest beforehand. They just heard that computer programming was good money, and they enrolled. To me, the ideal bootcamp student would be the person who dabbles with programming or programming-tangential technologies on the side, but just needs that little extra boost. That is a very small number of people if experience is any guide.<p>I just don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s reasonable to go from 0 to junior developer in 12 weeks if you don&#x27;t have that technical history. It&#x27;s why you can&#x27;t become a doctor in 12 weeks, generally. The four year degree programs force exposure to programming and programming-thinking for 4 dedicated years. This is enough to close the gap for non-technical people, but 12 weeks is surely not.
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mtmailover 7 years ago
I noticed a couple (4) &quot;No agencies, recent bootcamp grads, or visa candidates.&quot; on this month&#x27;s &quot;who is hiring?&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15148885" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15148885</a>
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nxsynonymover 7 years ago
I&#x27;m not all that surprised. The biggest advantage to a Coding Boot Camp is the intense, focused study for the duration of the program - and possibly any industry experience any of the teachers bring (although I&#x27;m sure the quality of that experience varies greatly from camp to camp).<p>The biggest downfall I see in the idea behind the Boot Camps is that they are great at pumping out entry level coders, but don&#x27;t seem to offer much in terms of career growth or learn trajectory outside of the basics. I&#x27;d be much more inclined to pay for one of these programs (which is another issue when you add the cost of tuition on top of regular living expenses + time away from work) if they offered some sort of career mentor-ship for a designated time period after landing that first role. They could offer counseling for career growth, additional classes, etc. I think that would create more return on invested from a student prospective.<p>Overall I think the boot camp space got way too crowed too quickly, which is understandable considering the amount of people trying to land that entry level paycheck.
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pascalxusover 7 years ago
I&#x27;m not surprised that Google would turn down applicants from boot-camps with less than 3 years of experience. they turn down qualified engineers with over 15+ years of relevant experience.
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corbett3000over 7 years ago
We&#x27;ve found that coding boot camps do not produce highly skilled devs. They output over priced junior talent who believe they&#x27;re all of a suddenly highly sought after &quot;full stack engineers&quot; worthy of $70k+ salaries because the boot camps tell them that&#x27;s what their worth - and then they take a 20% recuiting fee. If we see a candidate apply that has a coding camp on their resume it&#x27;s almost always a pass.
eighthnateover 7 years ago
The reason why boot camps are shutting down is because money is drying up. They are either predicting we are about to head into recession and&#x2F;or that the hiring of entry level developers is going to dry up in the coming months&#x2F;years.<p>Go back to 2004-2007. There were tons of &quot;training schools&quot; for developers. They all cashed out right around the time of the financial crisis.<p>Then around 2012, they all resurfaced as &quot;boot camps&quot;.<p>Rising interest rates, saturated employment environment and 10 years of insane growth probably means that they don&#x27;t see much room for growth in the near term so they are closing shop.<p>They&#x27;ll be back in a few years under different branding once the environment changes.
sotojuanover 7 years ago
Bootcamps are just too short.<p>I think the sweet spot for a coursework in programming is a year to two years. That&#x27;s essentially how long my university degree was if you remove the non-CS required classes.
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brooksideover 7 years ago
Bootcamps rode a wave of phenomenal publicity at their inception. Articles in the NYTimes and the like made me aware of Flatiron &#x2F; General Assembly as alternatives to grad school, which I had just enrolled in at the time.<p>These &quot;Bootcamps Are Dead&quot; stories will to some degree be self-fulfilling. Regardless of any realities in the junior dev job market, exposure to this wave of (sinking?) submarining would give me great pause were I making the same school decision today.
dmitri1981over 7 years ago
The article fails to mention that both dev boot camp and iron yard were acquired by some large for profit cos. The discussion on HN regarding their closure seemed to highlight that both companies had their quality of teaching severely cut post acquisition which no doubt aided their demise. Also, many of their boot camps were in secondary locations that could not support on-going employment for all their grads
zebraflaskover 7 years ago
I think this is for the best. These have typically struck me as analogous to people taking an overpriced amateur cooking class and then hoping that qualifies them for work in a gourmet restaurant.<p>And it&#x27;s hardly a new idea, but why pay when a quick Google search provides a mountain of free training material? Self-taught coders are a bit more impressive.
postitover 7 years ago
I believe boot camps got a bit of traction because of the price point compared to a college degree. Once people realized they didn&#x27;t learn enough and didn&#x27;t get that sweet three figure silicon valley job, the hype started to fade.<p>We don&#x27;t see the same trends in Europe, where university degrees are mostly cheap or free.
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stuartaxelowenover 7 years ago
Map draws `closing` on top of `still open`, hiding reality.
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jorblumeseaover 7 years ago
Learning to code in 3 months != properly trained engineers
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seangroggover 7 years ago
&quot;While coding boot camps had many course listings on JavaScript, Ruby, and web development, they had none that covered product management, wireframing, cloud computing, DevOps, or Agile methodologies&quot;<p>As a bootcamp grad (Hack Reactor) this is only partially true; while you can easily skate by without needing to learn any of these things there are many who elect into them.<p>Anecdotally, from my cohort:<p>* Testing and version control were a part of the entire curriculum from the first sprint to our capstone code freeze. Basic git was drilled into us, as well as exploration of more involved git workflows when we began our project phase. We learned about TDD and BDD and had a sprint dedicated to setting up our own tests (with tests against our tests).<p>* People could elect to take product management&#x2F;scrum master roles in their project teams (of which there were 3); some people elected to take these positions every project, some avoided them, but most served in a managerial capacity at least once.<p>* Deployment (admittedly most to Heroku, only one to AWS) was a soft requirement of every project and it was part of one of our sprints.<p>Outside of my cohort, many people spent extensive time working with things that weren&#x27;t a core part of what we did. During my database sprint my partner and I decided against the offered MySQL sprint and wrote our own Postgres branch. Many people took deep dives into algorithms and data structures - bloom filters, red-black&#x2F;b-trees, various sort implementations, etc. Some project teams built CI pipelines and deployed on AWS&#x2F;GCS&#x2F;Azure. Overall, while these things aren&#x27;t a part of the core curriculum you&#x27;ll find many people electively choose to take on far more than what&#x27;s mentioned.<p>And I learned _none_ of that in my _full year_ of CS.
gumbyover 7 years ago
Wow, they cost $26K!!?? For what they offer that seems like an outrageous amount -- and largely unaffordable for most of the target customer base.<p>Since the for-profit education industry had rushed in, I assume they just went for their typical milk-the-student-loan-system scam
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ravenstineover 7 years ago
&gt; Bloomberg ran an article stating many students were still not prepared for the tech industry even after their extensive training.<p>If you look at bootcamps as an education&#x2F;career on a platter, sure. But they&#x27;re no different than how a typical school should work; you get as much out of the experience as you put in. My experience at Dev Bootcamp was that those who put in the effort and had the right perspective were the ones who made it into the field after their graduation. Some people, actually many, simply don&#x27;t have what it takes to be a programmer, and that shouldn&#x27;t be seen as a failure on the part of bootcamps. It&#x27;d be one thing if few to none of the graduates from bootcamps succeeded in their profession, but that&#x27;s simply not the case. I and many people I know wouldn&#x27;t be where we are now if we didn&#x27;t have the kind of bootcamp style education where we could dedicate our time to educating ourselves and hacking on shit. Yes, yes... we might have been able to do that without paying a bootcamp, for &quot;free&quot;, yet we&#x27;d be paying the overhead of organizing people, consistently getting people together to spend time hacking on projects, etc. I was lucky enough to get one other person to hack on a project with me after bootcamp – everyone else was either too busy or out to make money from the free work of others. I&#x27;d much rather spend $20k to go to Dev Bootcamp and be able to hack with people on Node.js &amp; Ruby projects, be in the bay area, and go to hack-a-thons every other night than spend far more than that sitting through a bunch of non-tech classes I hate to come out with some abysmally outdated skills in PHP &amp; Java.<p>Just because some bootcamps have shut down doesn&#x27;t mean that the model itself is a failure. Though I had some minimal experience coding on my own prior to bootcamp(let&#x27;s just say I could make Hangman in Python but had no idea what object-orientation was), I was able to become proficient enough to build a live YouTube chat(before YouTube had that) with shared video controls... as a result of the experiences I had through Dev Bootcamp. You CAN learn to code in a few months, but you have to want it enough. Strange as it may seem, not everyone wants to succeed as much as others. Even if 80% of bootcamp graduates didn&#x27;t become programmers after the course, that&#x27;s no reason to see the bootcamp model as a failure. Not everyone is cut out for it, and yet it has changed the lives of numerous people. Though I&#x27;m sad that Dev Bootcamp is no more(which I&#x27;d still argue is a result of terrible management both prior to and after the Kaplan acquisition), I hope the idea of coding bootcamps can evolve to be more successful.
solidsnack9000over 7 years ago
&quot;Shutting down&quot; or &quot;consolidating&quot;?
YCodeover 7 years ago
It&#x27;s funny, until recently I thought boot camps were for people who already were working in a field who wanted to sharpen a particular skill in that field.<p>At least, the few my work paid for some years back were essentially that.<p>From the sounds of it though a lot of places are abusing these to create micro IIT Techs that hand out near worthless certificates.
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jefflombardjrover 7 years ago
As someone who went to a boot camp, this doesn&#x27;t surprise me at all. I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s worth it for most people. BUT, I don&#x27;t see them going away entirely. I&#x27;m thrilled with the boot camp I went to, and would do it all over again. Hear me out...<p>&gt; Are Coding Boot Camps Worth It?<p>- If the first time you&#x27;re touching code is at a boot camp, it&#x27;s not worth it. By the time I had started a boot camp, I had been reading books and doing tutorials on and off for 2 years. Thinking in terms of product life cycle, and your programming skills are the product, you want to go to a boot camp at the beginning of the growth phase.<p>- If your instructor or TA is a graduate of the program, it&#x27;s not worth it. We had instructors who had worked at F500 tech firms and a small class size. To me the real value was having 3 months worth of access to someone who in many cases made hiring decisions at those companies.<p>- If the boot camp focuses more on their curriculum more than their people, it&#x27;s not worth it. Curriculums are garbage, it doesn&#x27;t matter what language you learn, you should be learning how to think like a developer. It&#x27;s not all about focusing on the instructors too, if you&#x27;ve been self-studying for 2 years, and your peer doesn&#x27;t know how to open a text editor, they&#x27;re going to hold you back. You want a boot camp that is selective with their applicants.<p>- If you&#x27;re doing it for money, it&#x27;s not worth it. You&#x27;re not going to make an average salary right out of the school. In fact, you probably won&#x27;t even be a full-time employee, plan on being a contractor for the first year. If you don&#x27;t know how to find work on your own or research how to, knowing how to program isn&#x27;t going to change anything.<p>- You&#x27;re starting at the bottom, every opportunity good or bad is an opportunity to learn. Paid or unpaid take it, eventually, you will have enough opportunities to start saying no to less valuable opportunities, but until you&#x27;re 100% booked, you&#x27;re a yes man or yes woman. In fact don&#x27;t wait until graduation.<p>- If you can&#x27;t afford to take 6 months off and devote them entirely to programming, it&#x27;s not worth it. I had saved for 2 years, paid off my debt, and instead of using the remaining money for a down payment on a house, I paid for tuition&#x2F;living expenses to dedicate 3 months of uninterrupted time. I know I was fortunate enough to have this opportunity, but if you&#x27;re going to do it, you need the resources to do it right. Otherwise, continue with self-study and find a mentor at a meetup.<p>- If you&#x27;re not in a tech hub, it&#x27;s not worth it. San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, Portland, Chicago, New York, Toronto, Vancouver, Denver, or Montreal are good. Maybe Boston or Atlanta, don&#x27;t know enough about the tech scenes there.<p>- If you have medical&#x2F;family issues, it&#x27;s not worth it. It is stressful if you have any other things going on in your life sort them out first.<p>I&#x27;ve seen a lot of people fail, but it is still very much worth it for some people. I went to a boot camp to accelerate something I was already doing. What is said about boot camps applies to education in the broader sense as well. In many cases college isn&#x27;t worth it, but it doesn&#x27;t mean you shouldn&#x27;t go.
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nhorob67over 7 years ago
Anyone have any boot camps they think are &quot;best-in-class&quot;?
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autokadover 7 years ago
how do people feel about specialized bootcamps like data science? has anyone done them?