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What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

211 pointsby qiqingover 7 years ago

23 comments

rdlecler1over 7 years ago
I was a TA at Yale when I did my PhD there and I contrast that experience to when I was a TA at University of Calgary. Whether it’s a higher sense of entitlement or just grinding it out to maximize your official grade the contrast between these two schools was striking. At Yale you’d better think twice about honest grading because if you did there would be an army at your door with pitchforks ready. You then have to spend hours explaining why they didn’t deserve a higher grade. At the end of the day you’re worn down and there’s very little incentive to grade honestly as you get pain nearly nothing and you’re really there to finish your PhD.
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NumberSixover 7 years ago
The article ends with:<p>It’s a system that polishes privilege, its byproduct a contempt for earned authority. Many of the people who started with this attitude had it ratified and encouraged by perhaps the most prestigious university in the world — and <i>now</i> they’re running the whole show.<p>Emphasis on <i>now</i> added.<p>Who in their right mind thinks people who attend Harvard and a handful of other elite universities and prep schools haven&#x27;t been running the whole show since before the American Revolution?<p>See for example:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.harvard.edu&#x2F;gazette&#x2F;story&#x2F;2008&#x2F;11&#x2F;obama-joins-list-of-seven-presidents-with-harvard-degrees&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.harvard.edu&#x2F;gazette&#x2F;story&#x2F;2008&#x2F;11&#x2F;obama-joins-l...</a>
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alttabover 7 years ago
Here&#x27;s a working link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;posteverything&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;19&#x2F;how-harvard-helps-its-richest-and-most-arrogant-students-get-ahead&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;posteverything&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2017&#x2F;0...</a><p>The article is short, and only uses an anecdote to support its claim. While I can generally agree that places like Harvard work more in connections, networks, and money than intellectual rigor, the article is too short and missing enough detail to fall flat.
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Animatsover 7 years ago
Harvard&#x27;s graduation rate is 97.5%. Yale 97%. Princeton 96.9%. It&#x27;s <i>hard</i> to flunk out of the Ivy League.<p>Non Ivy League highly selective schools: Caltech 92.3%. Stanford 93%. MIT 92.2%. UC Berkeley: 90.9%. Low 90% success rate is normal there.
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ryandrakeover 7 years ago
The silliness, of course, is that if you are among the &quot;elite&quot; and &quot;privileged&quot; going to an Ivy League school, nobody is going to give a shit about your grades anyway. Your career and success is already pre-ordained. Why on earth would you bother arguing with your professor that your &quot;A-&quot; should be an &quot;A&quot;? You&#x27;re going to go to work at your daddy&#x27;s investment bank after you graduate either way! You think big name banks and consulting firms are going to say &quot;Gee.. he&#x27;s a Kennedy, but his grades are so bad! We can&#x27;t bring him in.&quot; Just party and get C&#x27;s and D&#x27;s--you&#x27;re already set for life.
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boredom_boredomover 7 years ago
Full Disclosure: I work at an Ivy League institution, but not with undergrads, nor is teaching my primary job.<p>I also went to another Ivy League school, many years ago. I wasn&#x27;t well off, but I wasn&#x27;t struggling to pay for school, either. I can tell you for a fact that the pandering to student complaints described in the article wasn&#x27;t the case when I was in school, but that was many years ago.<p>I TA&#x27;d while in grad school last century, at the University of Michigan, and I&#x27;ve TA&#x27;d recently at my Ivy League university&#x27;s extension school, where endowments aren&#x27;t a consideration. I can tell you that we get FAR more requests for grade adjustments now then we got we got decades ago. That seems to me to be as much a function of the change in the students over time as the change in institutional finance. What&#x27;s surprising to me, though, is that even in an extension school, instructors STILL entertain and indulge what I would consider frivolous student regrade requests, as described in the article - even without the monetary drivers the article&#x27;s author ascribes to the Harvard instructors.<p>So, why do professors pander to students&#x27; regrading requests, even if there is no apparent monetary motive? I believe that the cause is the rise in &quot;instructor review&quot; websites, and the easy communication between students. If an instructor is rated poorly by students, his class enrollments drop. If an instructor&#x27;s enrollments drop too far, and they aren&#x27;t tenured, they may be asked to find employment elsewhere.<p>So, while the monetary motive may be there, there is also the &quot;popularity&quot; motive. Word about poor or overly strict instructors travels very quickly among a student body. If students don&#x27;t have to take a class from an instructor they feel is too strict or a poor lecturer, they won&#x27;t. It&#x27;s the economics of the instructor market, not the university endowment, that I feel is often the motivating factor behind pandering to students
killjoywashereover 7 years ago
Cultivating this attitude in future leaders does in fact seem to help them gain power. I think it ties in with the need for A) impeccable credentials and B) the ability to cavalierly invite the CEO, world leader, whomever, to play golf.<p>In some people we call it charisma, in others we call it entitlement. I&#x27;m starting to wonder if it&#x27;s not only the person we describe, but also our own position and personal knowledge of them that influence the decision on which one to call it.
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Bretts89over 7 years ago
I&#x27;m working on an edtech startup and with it I&#x27;ve been spending a lot of time at Princeton University. From my experience with Princeton, Ivy League school are VERY overt about promoting elitism within their communities. I understand the thought behind it but a lot of these students are in for a rude awakening when they go work for an investment bank and find out that their Ivy League elitism means nothing if they can&#x27;t produce in the workplace.
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positivity89over 7 years ago
Do enough people really have a subscription to the Washington Post? Or is this trending purely because a lot of people agree with the opinionated title?
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bllguoover 7 years ago
I had a different experience at an Ivy, but I&#x27;m not rich. Wouldn&#x27;t say arrogant either, although I should probably leave that up to others to judge.<p>My point is that &quot;rich&quot; and &quot;arrogant&quot; are key words here. Such people tend to get preferential treatment in our society, at Harvard and elsewhere. It&#x27;s hardly specific to Harvard.
cprover 7 years ago
This calls to mind the amusing Harvey Mansfield, who used to be the only &quot;conservative&quot; (arguable) professor in the government dept. (I missed him in my time there epochs ago.)<p>He gave two grades, the official, inflated, career-preserving grade, and the real (his true assessment) grade. You could come ask him for the real grade if you wanted to know the awful truth. ;-)
pcurveover 7 years ago
Cornell wasn&#x27;t like this... (at least in the 90s).<p>3.2 would get you on dean&#x27;s list.<p>There were freshman weed-out courses to winnow out dumb and lazies.<p>I remember getting D+ on a paper that nearly gave me a stroke, and professor stood by it. Asked TA to re-grade it and gave me the same grade.<p>Some guy in my dorm got a letter from school with threat of expulsion if he didn&#x27;t improve his 1.7 GPA, after just 1 tough semester.<p>I once made the mistake of taking a comp sci course as an elective where most of the students were comp sci majors and already new the materials. Never went to so many TA office hours in my life, just to get B+.
grzmover 7 years ago
Likely the intended URL is:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;posteverything&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;19&#x2F;how-harvard-helps-its-richest-and-most-arrogant-students-get-ahead&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;posteverything&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2017&#x2F;0...</a><p>Also important to note is that it&#x27;s apparently an opinion piece.
boredom_boredomover 7 years ago
Full Disclosure: I work at an Ivy League institution, but not with undergrads, nor is teaching my primary job.<p>I also went to another Ivy League school, many years ago. I wasn&#x27;t well off, but I wasn&#x27;t struggling to pay for school, either. I can tell you for a fact that the pandering to student complaints described in the article wasn&#x27;t the case when I was in school, but that was many years ago.<p>I TA&#x27;d while in grad school last century, at the University of Michigan, and I&#x27;ve TA&#x27;d recently at my Ivy League university&#x27;s extension school, where endowments aren&#x27;t a consideration. I can tell you that we get FAR more requests for grade adjustments now then we got we got decades ago. That seems to me to be as much a function of the change in the students over time as the change in institutional finance. What&#x27;s surprising to me, though, is that even in an extension school, instructors STILL entertain and indulge what I would consider frivolous student regrade requests, as described in the article - even without the monetary drivers the article&#x27;s author ascribes to the Harvard instructors.<p>So, why do professors pander to students&#x27; regrading requests, even if there is no apparent monetary motive? I believe that the cause is the rise in &quot;instructor review&quot; websites, and the easy communication between students. If an instructor is rated poorly by students, his class enrollments drop. If an instructor&#x27;s enrollments drop too far, and they aren&#x27;t tenured, they may be asked to find employment elsewhere.<p>So, while the monetary motive may be there, there is also the &quot;popularity&quot; motive. Word about poor or overly strict instructors travels very quickly among a student body. If students don&#x27;t have to take a class from an instructor they feel is too strict or a poor lecturer, they won&#x27;t. It&#x27;s the economics of the instructor market, not the university endowment, that I feel is often the motivating factor behind pandering to students.
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adamvalveover 7 years ago
Link had a bad char at the end:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;posteverything&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;19&#x2F;how-harvard-helps-its-richest-and-most-arrogant-students-get-ahead" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;posteverything&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2017&#x2F;0...</a>
11thEarlOfMarover 7 years ago
There is a recurring theme of incentives becoming out of alignment with purpose. This happens in business, medicine, government...<p>It&#x27;s become a real focus for me, and CEOs should consider this very carefully. What are the company&#x27;s goals, really, and are the incentives offered, all the way from the janitors up to their own compensation, in alignment with those goals?<p>The professor stated blatantly: The students are paying too much for us to fail them. Said another way: The students bought their grades.<p>Does anyone have knowledge of incentive structures at universities that they&#x27;d defend as being in strong alignment with the goal of turning out the best educated students? What was that incentive structure?
kafkaesqover 7 years ago
The original title was way better. It may have sounded a bit splashy - it wasn&#x27;t out of line with the overall narrative of the article.<p>And there&#x27;s certainly no need to soft-peddle Harvard&#x27;s moral and intellectual cowardice, as revealed in this episode.
jtrafficover 7 years ago
It&#x27;s an interesting <i>anecdote</i>, but makes conclusions about the <i>aggregate</i>. Give me almost any university, and with time I could probably find at least one story like this.<p>I&#x27;m not saying it isn&#x27;t true, just that this evidence is weak.
arx1422over 7 years ago
I didn&#x27;t go to Harvard and I&#x27;ll freely admit that when I come across Harvard people, they are as a general pool, stunningly impressive in whatever discipline they are in.
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jformanover 7 years ago
This article has very little basis in reality based on my experience at Harvard as an undergrad and at Princeton as a grad student and TA.<p>Yes, students are arrogant and push for grades quite a bit. But I saw zero evidence of systemic catering to them as a whole or to any specific sub-population. I imagine the Development Office (the folks who would cater to the ultra powerful) <i>may</i> get involved in extreme cases? But it would be a huge to-do among the faculty (tenured faculty at Harvard and most elite institutions are incredibly powerful) and I never heard of it happening.<p>As an undergrad, I pressed for grade changes twice and was denied, reasonably, both times. As a TA at Princeton I was often pressed for grade changes and all were denied.<p>What almost certainly happened in this person&#x27;s case is that the Professors either a) weren&#x27;t tenured and couldn&#x27;t bother with student push-back given a sea of work and anxiety (or mistakenly thought student perceptions matter), or b) were tenured and didn&#x27;t care to deal with student push-back.
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atrichesover 7 years ago
First world problems...
csaover 7 years ago
That was an... interesting read. Some comments:<p>1. I imagine the author just became a PNG in terms of faculty hiring at any elite university. There&#x27;s no way I would hire her due to what I consider her tone deaf response to her experiences.<p>2. The only potentially misleading part was the professor talking about grade inflation. Most people know that declarations like this are largely a formality -- grading hard creates nothing but trouble for no benefit but plenty of potential loss. Lost time dealing with complaints, fewer enrolled students&#x2F;majors, lower ratings, etc.<p>3. Most of the real insiders know that a &quot;Harvard A&quot; means nothing. Back it up with a good recommendation, and it starts to mean something. Note that there is a code in recommendation letters so that professors never need to be negative and expose themselves to lawsuits and&#x2F;or criticism. &quot;[student] took my class [class name] and got an A. All work was completed on time and met the high standards for an A that are set in my classes.&quot; translates to &quot;OMG, stay away.&quot; On the other hand, the above with added specific examples about how the student exceled or showed exceptional promise are the premium recommendations.<p>4. IMHO, fighting grade inflation is something best done in required courses or lower level courses. Grades for third year classes should err on the high side. I have seen this system work a lot. I have seen systems that did not do this founder frequently.<p>5. This has nothing to do with privileged students -- they don&#x27;t need great grades for jobs or grad school. Seriously. This probably does have more to do with arrogant students. My thought? So what? Educating arrogant students is collateral damage for (usually) having great peers and having access to great resources.<p>6. There actually <i>are</i> students at Harvard who are smart, humble, and work hard. In fact, there are quite a few of them. I personally would not let a few bad apples rain on my party.<p>7. As far as passing someone who scored &quot;in the teens&quot; on a final, the so-called gentlemen&#x27;s C is a real thing (especially in weeder courses). The best part of said C is that it usually keeps the student out of other courses (e.g., pre-med), so the pain of their presence usually stops there.<p>8 Lastly, not all students at elite schools are comparable to Guggenheim Fellows like the author. In fact, I usually say that only 20-30% of most students at elite schools would be widely considered impressive, &quot;really smart&quot;, or &quot;interesting&quot; (my subjective view, but it is shared by many of my peers). Students at elite schools are not gods. A random individual from an elite school is not likely to be the smartest person you know -- not even close. I strongly suggest that people not kiss the asses of elite school students, and do due diligence just like they do with everyone else. That elite school degree may mean that there is a higher chance that the holder is exceptional, but it is nowhere near a guarantee.<p>Just my 2 cents....
wand3rover 7 years ago
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