TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

'We can't compete': why universities are losing their best AI scientists

112 pointsby sasvariover 7 years ago

32 comments

notyourdayover 7 years ago
Let me see if I can summarize the response:<p>HTTP&#x2F;1.1 402 F_YOU. PAY_ME.<p>Very few things grind my gears more than academic fat cats whining about losing their slaves to those who make slaves lives better.<p>Schools want to retain talent? Pay it more money. It is that simple. Can&#x27;t afford it? Maybe you should spend less money on salaries of professors ( who need those slaves to actually do the work ), administrators, fancy buildings, marketing, sports programs, etc.<p>None of the professors would take 4&#x2F;5s pay cut and stay, why should those who do the work? Everything else is secondary.
评论 #15600660 未加载
评论 #15601073 未加载
评论 #15600583 未加载
评论 #15601090 未加载
评论 #15600696 未加载
评论 #15601340 未加载
评论 #15601165 未加载
评论 #15600591 未加载
评论 #15600815 未加载
评论 #15601244 未加载
评论 #15601051 未加载
评论 #15600933 未加载
评论 #15602677 未加载
评论 #15603037 未加载
评论 #15601036 未加载
CJeffersonover 7 years ago
Speaking as an AI researcher (although I don&#x27;t spend all my time in the current trendy bits), the problem is it seems at the moment what you need to do successful machine learning is:<p>* Lots of data<p>* Lots of CPU&#x2F;GPU power<p>That&#x27;s two places where Universities just can&#x27;t compete with the money which companies can throw at this problem. Also, all AI companies have no interest in working with academia, just taking the staff&#x2F;students, so there is no useful 2-way communication.<p>EDIT: I just wanted to expand one small point. The data and CPU&#x2F;GPU power seem to let you research and solve fundamentally different problems. Consider a classic AI technique, like SAT. If you have lots of computers, you can solve bigger SAT problems, but there didn&#x27;t seem to be an interesting research which required massive clusters of machines, or massive datasets. The big research improvements were all possible on a single reasonable desktop machine, and a selection of commonly available benchmarks.
评论 #15600524 未加载
LeifCarrotsonover 7 years ago
&gt; He had left for a six-figure salary at Apple.<p>&gt; “He was offered such a huge amount of money that he simply stopped everything and left,” said Maja Pantic, professor of affective and behavioural computing at Imperial. “It’s five times the salary I can offer. It’s unbelievable. We cannot compete.”<p>Glassdoor suggests that a salary for a machine learning or natural language processing engineer at Apple averages about $125k. It&#x27;s not like &quot;6 figures&quot; means $999,999. ...And this was five times the salary that the professor could offer, implying the grad student was valued at $25,000 a year. Here are Imperial&#x27;s salary guidelines [1]. Given that the student was one year prior to their PhD, it appears they were capped at £35,850, which is closer to $47k, so maybe Apple paid $250k, but $47k is still not as much as the person is obviously worth.<p>And then she advocates pay caps.<p>The reason that private industry is willing to pay these people so much is not some nefarious desire to monopolize the skills and outputs. It&#x27;s because their work is able to generate value in excess of that salary.<p>Universities need to offer professors and grad students a job with a value - salaries, benefits, and investment in their future - that makes it worthwhile for them to work there. They&#x27;ve been able to mistreat altruistically minded students who don&#x27;t know what they&#x27;re worth, and allow shortfalls in their education so they lack the skills to function effectively in the workplace, but while that may work in some sectors AI scientists are currently so valuable that it&#x27;s not using. Let&#x27;s fix the universities, not place blame on the companies who are hiring the scientists out of those universities.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imperial.ac.uk&#x2F;media&#x2F;imperial-college&#x2F;administration-and-support-services&#x2F;hr&#x2F;public&#x2F;salaries&#x2F;job-families&#x2F;AR---London-SP-Rates---2017-18.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imperial.ac.uk&#x2F;media&#x2F;imperial-college&#x2F;administrat...</a>
评论 #15600765 未加载
评论 #15601400 未加载
评论 #15602792 未加载
评论 #15605894 未加载
评论 #15600581 未加载
评论 #15605012 未加载
Lazareover 7 years ago
Traditionally, universities have paid less, but competed by offering an excellent environment, working conditions, tenure, etc.<p>More recently, the working environments of most universities have become much much worse; even exploitative. Tenure is much harder to get, more and more classes are taught by part time adjuncts, the administration bureaucracy becomes ever larger and more powerful. Horror stories are everywhere: The frantic scramble for jobs, the poverty wages, the professors sleeping in their cars or turning to prostitution to make ends meet, the politicised witch hunts, the grinding bureaucracy.<p>In Pantic&#x27;s story, their student was probably hired way for a salary in the $125k-$250k range. Yes, that&#x27;s high, yes it&#x27;s more than a university is probably able or willing to offer. But a lot of people are not motivated only (or even primarily) by money. If you pick a top phd candidate, and make it clear to him that there is a real, viable path towards him obtaining tenure, making maybe $60-80k, having a well equipped lab, and having grad students of his own, and that he&#x27;ll be a respected, high status individual in the campus hierarchy...many, many people would take that deal in a heartbeat. And that is something which <i>was</i> on offer 40 years ago, and is <i>not</i> an offer now, but could be. (Universities are still well funded; what&#x27;s changed is the priorities.)<p>There&#x27;s no shortage of people who want to be academics; the problem is that the deal being offered to them today is <i>terrible</i>; it&#x27;s no surprise that the few who have compelling options outside academia are tempted. Boiling it down to being all about money is tempting, but I think it missed the point. If the Guardian had bothered to track the student in the story down, I suspect money would be a part of it, but only a part. And maybe not the largest part either.
评论 #15601031 未加载
评论 #15601234 未加载
alvisover 7 years ago
As an Imperial&#x27;s PhD and having spent couple of years doing research there, I can say that big salary is not essentially the main factor. Certainly it is a factor, but probably not as big as Pantic thought.<p>The most important factor is the environment. All researchers love an environment which encourages idea exchange. But the university (&amp; the department) doesn&#x27;t seem to see the point. The environment is not comfortable to work in to begin with, not to be mention about productivity and exchange, though, to be fair, it is a common problems across all academic institutions. So, if you want to keep them, give them a good environment please.
wolfgkeover 7 years ago
To me the solution seems simple: if you were to ask some AI scientist whether he is still willing to work for the university, too, i.e. give lectures (but as block course, so that is is compatible with the job requirements of the main job) and additionally has the option to get a tenured position anytime, I believe there are few that would not agree.<p>The problem rather is:<p>- Why require the scientist to invest a lot of time (thus opportunity cost) before they can get (very unlikely) a tenured position when they have the alternative to earn lots of money in industry now?<p>- Even if they are somewhat idealistic and would actually like to give lectures - why not offer a format such as block courses (this format is not uncommon in Germany) that fits better the industrial obligations than one lecture per week over a semester?<p>I believe both issues can easily be solved by the university without having to invest lots of money.
adamnemecekover 7 years ago
The idea of a university needs to be restructured. Maybe this will motivate them to do so.<p>E.g. unbundling would be a great idea. Also make teaching a class less of a lifestyle choice and more of a &quot;we made sure this person knows his&#x2F;her shit&quot;. Taking classes from people who have a lot of industry experience would be dope.<p>Also setup research institutes like Inria of fraunhofer. a lot of good researchers become professors to do research but don&#x27;t give a fuck about teaching. Which sucks for everyone involved.
评论 #15600566 未加载
评论 #15600569 未加载
jdhnover 7 years ago
This reminds me of what happened during the fracking boom in North Dakota. Students in school who were learning how to drive or repair trucks would complete about half the course, and then leave because the pay was phenomenal. Eventually instructors started leaving as well due to the huge bump in pay they could make.<p>Personally, I think that Professor Shanahan did the best thing. He gets a major pay raise while still retaining his scholastic position which he can fall back on in case his private sector job goes kaput.
fatjokesover 7 years ago
I work in the field of machine vision where Maja Pantic also contributes. It&#x27;s deeply disturbing to hear her say that. I don&#x27;t know how she treats her grad students but proposing that their pay be limited so she can keep them like serfs is infuriating and really says a lot about the professor&#x2F;PhD-student relationship.
fatjokesover 7 years ago
Pay caps? I&#x27;m sure the companies would love that; make a legal requirement something they were fined for colluding on.
评论 #15600408 未加载
评论 #15600473 未加载
评论 #15600392 未加载
评论 #15600476 未加载
mrkstuover 7 years ago
Industry is going to have to be careful not to eat their seed corn. There won’t be high quality candidates for the next round of hires if they remove the best professors from circulation.
评论 #15600559 未加载
评论 #15601466 未加载
评论 #15600582 未加载
评论 #15601268 未加载
评论 #15600465 未加载
评论 #15605033 未加载
评论 #15600463 未加载
评论 #15600688 未加载
pteroover 7 years ago
I do not see such a big problem. There are always hot technologies (that sometimes turn into fads) for which industry tries to grab anyone they can find. This happened before (dotcoms, oil&#x2F;fracking, synthetic bio, etc.) and will surely happen again.<p>Those do not make a major negative society impact because they tend to be narrow -- e.g., the current one sweeps in just AI&#x2F;ML, not all of CS.<p>This means that while there are a few minor short term disruptions (e.g., a new student might find a scarcity of professors in his #1 choice area for a year or two), it opens up a bunch of opportunities, too (tenure spots, grants, etc.) and in the super-competitive world of modern research universities they quickly get a bunch of qualified applications.<p>My 2c -- best of luck to those who move to industry, but society impact will be minimal if any 10 years down the road.
k2xlover 7 years ago
Many of these top tier students are moving to the big companies not just because of the salary, but also because they often have resources that is better than any university can offer.<p>I don&#x27;t think innovation is being stifled. Every week there is a new amazing publication on AI&#x2F;ML, but instead of coming from University it sometimes comes from DeepMind , Google, FB, etc...<p>If you want to research self driving cars, wouldn&#x27;t you want to work at Google which has tons of data?
评论 #15600449 未加载
SomeStupidPointover 7 years ago
I&#x27;ve always been curious -- what&#x27;s the best way for people in industry to help with this problem?<p>I&#x27;m not going to compete for a lottery ticket to take a <i>huge</i> pay cut to go work as a professor, with fewer resources and a worse schedule than even mid-level SDEs have. That&#x27;s clearly not a workable solution for having the best and brightest train the next generations.<p>But I am concerned by the prospect of a brain drain in the training pipeline and am interested in helping with that. What are viable strategies to try and share some expertise back from industry?<p>Setting aside for a moment if my employer would agree or not, what should I even be pushing for as a collaboration&#x2F;training program?
sevensorover 7 years ago
Like jdhn elsewhere in this thread, this reminds me of recent history. I was an undergrad in computer engineering during the dot-com boom, and classmates would vanish halfway through, having been lured away by fat paychecks. I spent 1999 and 2000 wondering if I was making the wrong move by sticking it out. By the end of 2001 I was pretty happy with my decision.
YeGoblynQueenneover 7 years ago
In the UK, a degree is four years, a PhD three and a Master&#x27;s one so I don&#x27;t see the big advantage of leaving your studies <i>right now</i> to go work in the industry. Why not wait to get your degree, then negotiate an <i>even bigger</i> salary, with it at hand?<p>I guess there&#x27;s a huge amount of hype about statistical machine learning right now and some people will think they &#x27;d better capitalise on it while it lasts.<p>Still, that&#x27;s short-termist. If they hype ends soon, the majority of those students leaving their degrees will find themselves out of work _and_ without a degree. If the hype doesn&#x27;t end soon then there&#x27;s no need to rush.<p>So in any case, there&#x27;s no need to rush. You&#x27;ll get a better long-term deal if you stay where you are.
driusanover 7 years ago
For pretty much my whole life universities have been telling people that they need to go to university to get a better job (where &quot;better&quot; == &quot;higher paid&quot;, sometimes implicitly and sometimes explicitly phrased that way.) I can probably count on one hand the number of times I&#x27;ve heard anyone phrase university in terms of civics or pursuing knowledge for the sake of knowledge or anything other than &quot;you need to go to university to get a better job.&quot;<p>This seems to be a case of them getting angry at people for having listened to them. If you tell people that the reason to go to university is to find a higher paying job, it&#x27;s not their fault if they don&#x27;t value your university once they find a higher paying job.
BeetleBover 7 years ago
Every so many days we get a submission on how difficult it is to get a TT faculty position at <i>any</i> university, let alone a top one. We keep hearing how saturated academia is.<p>So why the concern here?<p>What will these PhD students gain by staying, when it is so saturated? It appears this is more about tenured professors not being able to pump out papers as easily as they could in the past. For them, the students are merely tools to do so.<p>As someone else commented: Where is the student&#x27;s perspective in this piece? Many, many PhD students, if given a much better prospect at a TT position at a university, would reject large salary offers.
nanodanoover 7 years ago
It&#x27;s the same reason they can&#x27;t get good security experts to teach at universities. There was a study of 121 top universities and none of the top 10 require a course, top 3 didn&#x27;t even offer an elective. Only 3 of the top 50 required a single security course.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cloudpassage.com&#x2F;company&#x2F;press-releases&#x2F;cloudpassage-study-finds-u-s-universities-failing-cybersecurity-education&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cloudpassage.com&#x2F;company&#x2F;press-releases&#x2F;cloudpas...</a>
nshmover 7 years ago
Universities should sell scientists like clubs sell soccer players - best ones for many millions. That would help to support the rest ;)
Ericson2314over 7 years ago
Deep learning is alchemy so...oh well. Let the next winter fix this. Until then, milk &#x27;em the best you can, grad students!
kryptisktover 7 years ago
This is great, the usual problem in academia is senior faculty clogging all the positions and blocking young researchers.
julianmarqover 7 years ago
Just throwing this out there, and it might be overly optimistic and even utopic, but wouldn&#x27;t laxer intellectual property laws help with this? It could mean that these people could share (more of) their work, no matter where they&#x27;re working.
hourislateover 7 years ago
I know this was a UK School but when a University can pay a football coach several million a year but can&#x27;t pay a doctoral student doing research a living wage, well there is a problem.<p>I just wish the Apple, Facebook, Amazon, MSFT, Google could get together somehow and provide an alternative to the system we have now. The disruption would be welcomed among the millions of students and tax payers with open arms.
RestlessMindover 7 years ago
&gt; Beyond getting the companies to pay their taxes, Pantic said the government might have to consider pay caps...<p>Today, you are losing top talent to another company in your country. Tomorrow with that kind of attitude and &quot;solutions&quot;, you will lose them to another country. For better or worse, money is one of the top motivators and the society just has to deal with it.
jhbadgerover 7 years ago
This happened in the 1990s too. With any sort of computational talent not just AI. Professors were leaving for industry all over. But then 1) the dot-com bust happened 2) A lot of former academics realized that despite the nice salary, working on a platform to sell pet food online or whatever wasn&#x27;t exactly intellectually stimulating. So it sorted itself out in the end.
tbhocover 7 years ago
The article is very dramatized and partly fictional. Pantic had no students that left for Apple, dropped their PhD at the last year or earn 100k.
pfortunyover 7 years ago
The consequence of turning academia into a competition against private companies.<p>No more no less.
limaoscarjulietover 7 years ago
Flip side: if AI research is hurt, AI will not take over the World anymore! :)
away2017throwover 7 years ago
Always puts a smile on my face when a smart person gets the money he deserves!
评论 #15600487 未加载
top256over 7 years ago
it&#x27;s comparing apple to oranges. At the risk of stating the obvious, academia is not a good way to get rich imho. That is hardly new :)
rdlecler1over 7 years ago
Not only Univiseristies, but startups are at risk. If I develop AI talent and then Google steals them away with a $500k signing bonus what will this do to the startup ecosystem?
评论 #15601529 未加载