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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

43 pointsby sillypuddyover 7 years ago

17 comments

adriandover 7 years ago
I&#x27;ve been an owner of a company for years now and I&#x27;ve always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company:<p>- I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc.<p>- I refer to them as &quot;women&quot;, never as &quot;ladies&quot; or &quot;girls&quot; or other nonsense.<p>- No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives.<p>- I don&#x27;t engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sexual or otherwise inappropriate conversations.<p>I will, however, happily go for lunch, have a drink, etc., as I would any other colleague.<p>Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts (&quot;looking good&quot;, etc.), but it&#x27;s different. (I maintain the rule about sexist&#x2F;sexual conversations across the board - talking about women with male colleagues isn&#x27;t cool either.)<p>I could probably break some of these rules with some of the women in my office without causing offence too, especially the people I&#x27;m closer with - e.g. by remarking on a new outfit or something - but I don&#x27;t want to be a creep so I just play it super safe with everybody.<p>It&#x27;s really not all that difficult: be a professional, don&#x27;t be a creep, and err on the side of caution. If you have to overcompensate like Pence, it&#x27;s still a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
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jenga22over 7 years ago
I am not sure why men go to happy hours with alcohol or go to social events where the chances of stepping over the line explode exponentially. Going out and hanging with your co-workers over a beer might have been a good idea six months ago but is no longer a good idea.<p>Why?<p>Any of those things you said or did, could be construed a million different ways. Was that one thing you said flirting? Did you say that one thing that offended someone who went thru this particular experience as a child you were unaware of? Did you talk about that actor you really liked that turned out to be a child molester today and now makes you look less than acceptable?<p>Your past behavior carries weight today. What was once acceptable might not be today and there are consequences today. You will lose your career and job over even the faintest claim. Here is the money paragraph:<p>&gt; Still, some workers said they were starting to follow “the Pence rule,” which was formerly known as the Billy Graham rule, after the evangelical preacher, but is now named for Vice President Mike Pence. Mr. Pence has said he does not eat alone with women who are not his wife or attend an event without her if alcohol will be served.<p>I would even arguing going to those &quot;game zones&quot; is all potentially risky behavior. I know I am not being politically correct, however just doing your job and leaving is a better solution. It is better than losing everything over it.
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sp527over 7 years ago
This has become almost cartoonish. The people being accused of sexual harassment did overtly and obviously abusive things. That doesn’t call for a referendum on the entire scope of male-female interactions. If you have to wonder whether you’re a sexual harasser and aren’t stupid or deliberately oblivious, then the answer is you are not one.<p>You may still be somewhere on the misogyny spectrum. You may even make women feel uncomfortable with some of the things you say and do. But the term sexual harassment should be reserved for obviously inappropriate conduct, and not be cheapened into some thin-gray-line class of transgression.<p>Also if our society starts treating flirting with or attempting to date coworkers as problematic behavior, people will lose the opportunity to potentially find mates in an environment to which they’re devoting increasingly larger shares of their lives. The only people who will win in that scenario are the therapists.
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telesillaover 7 years ago
20 years ago I walked into a server room where the walls sported naked&#x2F;semi-naked women and the inhabiting men looked at me like I was there to take away their wall candy. I chose to leave and made another career for myself, because I was too young and afraid to stand my ground. I don&#x27;t regret this, because I went on to have an amazing life, but I never again stepped foot in a room like that and I do regret never working with a massive Oracle installation or learning how to get the most out of a PERL app running on metal. I lost out, and I hate that I never had the opportunity to experience working at corporate scale.<p>I am willing to bet those rooms still exist, but almost all of the rest of my career I&#x27;ve found men welcoming and courteous, the same as the women I now work with. Things have changed and they are changing for the better - this is all just part of the discussion we gotta have.<p>It&#x27;s getting better folks - the fact that women can now speak out in public means we are less scared, and we&#x27;ll be able to interact more and you&#x27;ll have a lot more women as company down the road.<p>Here&#x27;s an exacting analysis by the ever-helpful Dan Savage on the Louis CK incident which covers similar ground (work-related harassment and power relations):<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thestranger.com&#x2F;slog&#x2F;2017&#x2F;11&#x2F;10&#x2F;25557816&#x2F;savage-love-letter-of-the-day" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thestranger.com&#x2F;slog&#x2F;2017&#x2F;11&#x2F;10&#x2F;25557816&#x2F;savage-l...</a>
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tabethover 7 years ago
I honestly don&#x27;t know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don&#x27;t ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc.<p>I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they&#x27;ll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately personal, do the same. If someone laughs, laugh back. To mimic behavior is to be human.<p>Be human.
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jacalataover 7 years ago
The amount of hysteria on display by men in this article and elsewhere is ridiculous. What happened to the skeptical &quot;treat each person as an individual&quot; attitude that created &quot;Not All Men&quot;?
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erikbyeover 7 years ago
A woman at work constantly speaks in tones of sexual innuendo, when she comes over to someone asking for help or whatever, she leans over you and places her hand on your shoulder or thigh. As a man in today’s climate the double standard is painfully obvious. Follow her example and you’d be on your ass fast.
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mindvirusover 7 years ago
My partner is a software engineer, and she has experienced an enormous amount of inappropriate behavior - everything from &quot;was that inappropriate, am I being too sensitive?&quot; to a person getting fired and walked out by security for their behavior toward her (extremely justifiably). None of this has ever happened to me, though.<p>Even in the more innocuous cases, it leads to a ton of self-doubt. Part of the problem is the volume of it - these aren&#x27;t one-off instances, but repeated questioning of one&#x27;s worth as a human being and member of the team.<p>I like unconscious bias as a model for addressing this because it lets you flip the equation around on these cases. Imagine someone who tells women at work to smile. By accusing them of being sexist, the argument becomes about whether they&#x27;re being sexist - and they&#x27;ll inevitably argue that they&#x27;re not, they&#x27;re just being nice, people are being too sensitive&#x2F;PC and in the end nothing happens. And it&#x27;s really not the individual instance of it that&#x27;s the problem, but the volume of it - and not just from that person, but from everyone. And this really serves to diffuse responsibility.<p>Unconscious bias would say to recognize your own biases, and rather than have the argument about whether or not you&#x27;re sexist&#x2F;racist&#x2F;whatever, to think about how you can treat people equally, and correct for your biases. And then, rather than trying to apply labels to people, we can have a real conversation about behavior - and correct ones behavior and build systems to accommodate for these biases.<p>For example, if someone repeatedly interrupts someone in a meeting, they might not even know it (hence, _unconscious_ bias). If you accuse that person of being sexist, the conversation stops there. But if people subscribe to unconscious bias, it can be a learning experience &quot;hey, I noticed you interrupted X a few times in that meeting&quot; it can be a chance to understand ones biases - &quot;oh, I didn&#x27;t mean to. I&#x27;ll be mindful of that in the future.&quot; And you can even go a step further, and create systems to compensate - have a rule that one person can talk at a time (say by holding a ball), or a culture where you explicitly acknowledge any ideas you&#x27;re building on before you suggest something.<p>Obviously there&#x27;s no silver bullet to solving this, and there are bigger issues than people being interrupted in meetings, but I&#x27;ve found when people subscribe to this philosophy of self-reflection and mindfulness, it goes a long way in creating a positive environment where people are treated like people.
debacleover 7 years ago
I&#x27;ve overstepped with women. Women have overstepped with me. There is definitely a graciously wide gray area of &quot;That came out differently than I meant it.&quot;<p>The key is to:<p>1. Understand your own intent when saying&#x2F;doing something.<p>2. Consider the potential negative ways something you may say could be perceived.<p>3. Understand the additional social responsibility that comes with being someone&#x27;s superior, explicit or implicit.
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Mzover 7 years ago
I don&#x27;t think it is helpful to pretend there is no gray area. Talking about how to avoid grey areas is good. Pretending they don&#x27;t exist is potentially dangerous and strikes me as toxic and blamey.
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simonsarrisover 7 years ago
I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping?<p>* Telling someone they look good today<p>* Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up<p>* Inviting someone for a drink after work<p>* Telling someone they should dress better<p>* Telling someone they are too uptight<p>* Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more<p>* Inviting a co-worker to a party with lots of alcohol (example given in article)<p>You might think, &quot;This is easy, clearly XYZ above are fine whereas ABC are not or could be questionable.&quot; But here&#x27;s the problem: For a man talking to a man, <i>all of the above are just plain fine.</i><p>Some may think that even in very low risk interactions, &quot;why take the risk, if it could be misconstrued?&quot; In a very tiny way even asking these questions opens me up to the risk of someone suggesting I&#x27;m some kind of sexist&#x2F;bigot&#x2F;etc, even though I&#x27;m only trying to be descriptive and not normative here, because someone may misinterpret a position here. In fact I&#x27;m sure there are plenty of people who would never comment on an article like this. But I bet they&#x27;ll talk to their male co-workers about it, in private.<p>Which is kind of the rub. The net result of this round of men-wondering-of-they-are-overstepping may be even more boys club behavior than before.<p>How is it possible for men to treat women equally with other men, if it introduces such risk? I&#x27;ve seen all sorts of people advocating positions that boil down to &quot;Don&#x27;t make any friends at work, work is a place for work and nothing else.&quot; This seems like a losing strategy.<p>Not all difficult problems have broad solutions. Sometimes, spraying a pesticide increases the level of pests.<p>&gt; Still, some workers said they were starting to follow “the Pence rule,” which was formerly known as the Billy Graham rule, after the evangelical preacher, but is now named for Vice President Mike Pence. Mr. Pence has said he does not eat alone with women who are not his wife or attend an event without her if alcohol will be served.<p>Maybe it is worth noting that Women are more likely than men to endorse Mike-Pence-style inter-gender workplace norms. From the NYT: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;07&#x2F;01&#x2F;upshot&#x2F;members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;07&#x2F;01&#x2F;upshot&#x2F;members-of-the-opp...</a>
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throwawayn0w4yover 7 years ago
This situation is completely blown out of proportion and ridiculous.<p>When you have members of the opposite sex sharing space every day, sex is a factor, and there really needs to be some amount of reality brought back into this discussion.<p>The prevailing attitude reminds me of religious parents acting as if their teenage children are not going to have sexual relations, and refusing to educate them on sex as a result.<p>The majority of jobs I&#x27;ve had exposed me to sexual harassment and assault in various forms.<p>I&#x27;ve had female office managers hanging their arm around me and petting my hand while I try to eat lunch after weeks of my ignoring their verbal advances.<p>I&#x27;ve had female sales women grinding their breasts against me while rinding to a company offsite team-builder in a shuttle bus.<p>As far as I&#x27;m concerned this is par for the course when you stick women and men in the same space. I don&#x27;t feel like these women crossed a line worth making a big deal about, it&#x27;s not as if I was raped. They were mildly annoying, but we&#x27;re adults, and I&#x27;m not deluding myself into believing we&#x27;re going to be robots in a coed office without ever letting our sex enter the picture.<p>In all my experiences, the women gave up pretty quickly. It&#x27;s as if they were just going out of their way to make it blatantly obvious they were interested, because my acting aloof and ignoring their more subtle advances weren&#x27;t convincing enough. They probably assumed I was being shy (quiet, introverted, software engineer).<p>I personally feel people need to calm down a bit on this topic, and yes I&#x27;d like to see the double standard go away. Attraction happens, if people are civil about it and not too persistent, I&#x27;d rather there be a reasonable threshold of tolerance on both sides of this.
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hamandcheeseover 7 years ago
&gt; After-work events are “the front line” when it comes to harassment, and companies want “more safety precautions” now, she said.<p>This makes me sad. I feel like letting your guard down and getting a little wild can lead to some pretty good camaraderie and friendship.
rhelmerover 7 years ago
I&#x27;m not sure why this is hard... why is any amount of flirting, or innuendo etc. at work OK?<p>I do realize that people spend much of their time at work, and it&#x27;s a place people meet.<p>Personally, now that we have dating sites and such I would not risk my career by trying to initiate a relationship with someone I am working with...<p>I&#x27;d rather avoid even just the mild awkwardness of someone being uncomfortable at me asking them for coffee or dinner, and having to then work with them after that.
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porfiriumover 7 years ago
All these incidents will end up causing segregation and unwillingness to hire&#x2F;work with women.
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xor1over 7 years ago
I treat all interactions with coworkers (male or female or otherwise) as if I were under surveillance by the KGB or Stasi, and any sort of misstep would mean imprisonment or death. I also refuse to ever drink with coworkers. It&#x27;s worked out so far.
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aerovistaeover 7 years ago
I thought this was talking about the band, singers of the timeless &quot;Land Down Under.&quot;