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Former Facebook exec says social media is ripping apart society

555 pointsby SREinSFover 7 years ago

38 comments

bootszover 7 years ago
I&#x27;m always a bit ambivalent about confessions&#x2F;apologies of this sort by former execs and employees of these powerful companies. On the one had I&#x27;m glad they are speaking up and recognizing the harm being caused by the businesses they helped create.<p>On the other hand, it&#x27;s hard to ignore the fact that typically these people have already profited enormously from these companies and they will never have to face any sort of real ramifications or consequences for the net harm that may ultimately be brought to society.<p>It&#x27;s one thing to be sorry, it&#x27;s another to avoid being complicit in such ventures to begin with. But that&#x27;s the thing... where is the incentive to &quot;do no harm&quot; in Silicon Valley? There isn&#x27;t any.<p>It&#x27;s an interesting thought experiment to imagine what the world might look like if people were held accountable indefinitely for the externalities caused by the work they conduct.<p>Not saying this is practical or even desirable, but clearly it would change people&#x27;s priorities quite a bit. As a software dev there&#x27;s very little keeping you from accepting a fat job offer from Facebook unless you happen to have a particularly strong &amp; discerning conscious&#x2F;moral code. I&#x27;d like to believe that I&#x27;d turn it down... but I&#x27;m not so sure. No wonder the world&#x27;s brightest minds are working at companies like this.
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zapperdapperover 7 years ago
My new favourite person.<p>&quot;In his talk, Palihapitiya criticized not only Facebook, but Silicon Valley’s entire system of venture capital funding. He said that investors pump money into “shitty, useless, idiotic companies,” rather than addressing real problems like climate change and disease.&quot;<p>Amen brother. Nailed it.<p>I caught up with a friend the other day. He has a first class honours degree in Physics from Cambridge University. He went on to do a PhD in Quantum Mechanics. He is the smartest person I have ever met. He works for a company that trawls social media looking for &quot;trends&quot;. This is a guy who could probably be building the warp drive, or a nuclear fusion reactor - instead he spends his days writing code that helps clients sell people shit they don&#x27;t need - <i>because that is what this insane &quot;market&quot; puts value on</i>. It is a terribly toxic culture exacerbated by social media. I did a &quot;hard break&quot; from social media a year or two back and have never regretted the decision.
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dawhizkidover 7 years ago
I wonder if the same can be said for internet porn. I too used to think people who wanted to ban porn were just kooky evangelicals, but at some point realized myself how empty and depressed I felt after watching it.<p>I&#x27;m almost more curious about the societal consequences of young people (mostly male) being raised on abundant internet porn and its role (if any) it plays in how men emotionally and physically connect with women or other men.
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avenoirover 7 years ago
I always found it amazing how vastly different internet communities are from real-world communities. Skim through just about any YouTube video and the comments are filled with some of the most vile garbage. We&#x27;d all be murdering each other had this been the case in real-world communities. But, instead, we think twice about what we tell others we meet face-to-face and we deal with the impact of our actions right then and there. If we get angry, we might say something terrible to someone and quickly see the pain in their eyes before realizing the terrible thing we&#x27;ve done and regret ever doing so. The feedback is immediate and necessary for our personal growth. Social media just amplifies the worst in us without ever seeing the impact of the words that we put online. It pushes people in disagreement further apart who would easily understand each other by simply communicating face-to-face and sharing the emotions surrounding their differences. Instead, everything is lost in endless pile of Twitter or Facebook feeds which regurgitate apologies of &quot;caught&quot; offenders and cries of the offended. All of this, in all likelihood, would&#x27;ve never happened in real, physical world.
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mbestoover 7 years ago
No offense to Chamath (what I know of him, I think he&#x27;s generally pretty smart and likable), but this is a bit of a stretch:<p>&gt; He said that investors pump money into “shitty, useless, idiotic companies,” rather than addressing real problems like climate change and disease. Palihapitiya currently runs his own VC firm, Social Capital, which focuses on funding companies in sectors like healthcare and education.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.socialcapital.com&#x2F;portfolio&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.socialcapital.com&#x2F;portfolio&#x2F;</a><p>19 Enterprise software companies<p>10 Financial services companies<p>5 consumer companies<p>including companies like this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bustle.com&#x2F;about" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bustle.com&#x2F;about</a><p>These companies are focusing on &quot;real problems&quot;?
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rokhayakebeover 7 years ago
I watched the entire interview previously.<p>Chamath makes a very good point. Basically that the same brain you are using to respond to constant interruption from social media and its feedback loops is the same brain you are using to do supposedly great works. The former tasks train you brain to think in a pattern that is opposite to the way needed to do meaningful work. In other words, social media products &quot;machine teach&quot; your brain whether you like it or not. Take back control.
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bogomipzover 7 years ago
His LinkedIn profile states:<p>&gt;&quot;Responsible for overseeing core growth components, building new systems to maximize adoption and virality and growing Facebook adoption throughout the world.&quot;<p>Then he&#x27;s quoted in the article saying:<p>&gt;&quot;The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works,” he said, referring to online interactions driven by “hearts, likes, thumbs-up.” “No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth. And it’s not an American problem — this is not about Russians ads. This is a global problem.”<p>Yes its a global problem sir, why wouldn&#x27;t it be? This was exactly your mission according to your LinkedIn summary.<p>It&#x27;s interesting that these folks never seem to have moments or self-reflection or concerns for the greater good while they are sitting in strategy meetings and taking these company&#x27;s money and stock options. How convenient for him that he can now make such headline-grabbing pronunciations for his own self-promotion.
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wencover 7 years ago
I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s social media itself. Social media merely amplifies who people are. How one handles this amplification determines the utility one derives from social media.<p>The HN crowd tends to be dismissive of social media (a lot of &quot;get off my lawn types&quot; around here), but I came from the world of BBSes, and to me social media is simply an evolution of what BBSes were. For years I tried to figure out how to reproduce the sense of community that BBSes brought about, but never found the right niche. Then I realized Facebook was actually a evolved version of a BBS.<p>I am friends on social media with complex people (who understand nuance) who tend to use social media carefully. They use it to share events, describe experiences (in pictures and words), and once in a while write insightful status messages. They usually don&#x27;t have extreme views, and tend to debate issues in an even-handed way. I find being on social media with these folks to be enriching because I get to learn a thing or two.<p>If you follow the right folks on Twitter, you&#x27;ll get to overhear a lot of conversations about the important issues in Python, R, or what have you, and gain a context that eludes most people who learn programming languages from books. Social media is good for that.<p>Less complex people tend to share on whatever they found on Reddit, their favorite political website or whatever trashy site that supports their preconceived notions. They tend not to write a lot of prose, and when they do it&#x27;s not very well-thought out. Many of our older less tech-savvy relatives tend to fall into this category. We tolerate these people because we&#x27;re related to them, but they are the ones who use social media in a somewhat unhelpful fashion. And before social media they found entertainment in forwarding fake news emails without verifying them on Snopes. But we mostly dismiss them because their believability factor is low anyway.<p>In the middle are the really dangerous folks, the really intelligent but extremely partisan folks. I won&#x27;t name names, but if you follow certain celebrities in the AI world, they will often share partisan and unexamined articles that reveal their political bias. You would think the more intelligent someone is, the more of a critical thinker they would be, but it turns out that most people who are good at one thing aren&#x27;t usually good at everything.
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SpikeDadover 7 years ago
It&#x27;s not necessarily social media it&#x27;s people&#x27;s belief in what they see in social media. Our ability to analyze from a skeptical point of view has not kept up with our ability to distribute information.<p>Sadly MSM did not help us in that matter as they adopted the &quot;get it out first&quot; and &quot;clicks are the only thing that matters&quot; point of view.<p>Finally I put a lot of blame on the Murdoch&#x2F;Fox propaganda machinery which was very good at getting out media which was specifically designed to confirm the hateful opinions of their audience. It made it possible for people to embrace &quot;double-think&quot; - distrust of media while at the same time trust in their media.
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remirover 7 years ago
If this is problematic today, imagine how things will be in 20 years. It will be nightmarish.<p>You&#x27;re on Facebook, you have a baby, you post photos of your child on Fb and he&#x2F;she becomes an entity in Fb&#x27;s database. Your child grows up and eventually creates his own Fb&#x2F;whatsApp&#x2F;Instagram&#x2F;whatever account and the cycle continues with his own children. This is just the beginning, folks.
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sbarreover 7 years ago
Is this the same debate as &quot;rock and roll is the devil&#x27;s music&quot; or &quot;TV is rotting our kids&#x27; brains&quot; that we have every generation, except now it&#x27;s social media?<p>Not saying I disagree with the overall position, but I feel like there&#x27;s always something to point to that is &quot;ripping apart society&quot;...
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StanislavPetrovover 7 years ago
The flaws in the assertions made by this Facebook exec are exactly the same as those who assert that Russia &quot;attacked our Democracy&quot; using &quot;social media&quot;. In both cases the issue isn&#x27;t &quot;social media&quot;, its our sick society where most people are thoughtless, lack critical thinking skills, and are easily influenced. When people are vapid and whimsical they are extremely susceptible to any kind of external stimulus much like someone with a compromised immune system is susceptible to disease. Unfortunately, by the very nature of our national disease, introspection is absent. Consequently, instead of dealing with the root cause of social strife (the nature and intellectual capacity of our citizens), we seek to externalize the blame (&quot;It was the Russians!&quot; .. &quot;Social media is to blame for our national discord!&quot;). Critical thinking, awareness and presence of mind are not lacking due to some widespread genetic problem. These are skills that have to be honed and developed from childhood. Paradoxically, this problem only gets worse because those who sit at the top of the pyramid of our society don&#x27;t want a nation full of critical thinkers. They want a nation full of people who are constantly worried about where their next rent payment, credit card payment, or insurance premium are coming from. The last thing they want is a nation full of people willing and capable to challenge the status quo. As a result, things will continue to deteriorate as the vast majority of citizens are more concerned with when the new Iphone is released or what trouble the Kardeshians have gotten themselves into this week.
arca_voragoover 7 years ago
I think the real rot of social media is the filter bubble it creates (along with social media merging with news, ala google censorship).<p>I remember my early days on BBS&#x27;s and IRC, when if you were an idiot you got called out for it. It was a generally more hostile atmosphere with less patience for idiocy, which at first doesn&#x27;t seem like a positive, but by creating rules like the one HN foisted with little user input on us of arbitrary enforcement of &quot;don&#x27;t be unecessarily negative&quot;, I feel we actually create a worse space by coddling users. The same applies for users self-coddling via filter-bubbles they put on themselves, or filter-bubbles imposed on them by whatever company. (for example, reddit censorship and manipulation has been getting out of hand for years, and it&#x27;s obvious they have been angling towards IPO, which will be their death I hope.)<p>This is why I still like irc and usenet to this day.<p>The secondary rot of social media is the surveillance dystopia it has created and is enabling.
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notadocover 7 years ago
I strongly believe social media in current forms is bad for society and for people individually, it is a digital addiction that feeds the worst of human nature with no redeeming quality.<p>Everyone I know who still is used by the service always reports their experience as some variation of outrage, gossip, fake news, distraction, attention draining, rumor, innuendo, hearsay, time wasting, conflict, narcissism, vanity, boasting, egotism, or at best some ultra staged portraiture intended to signal how wonderful someones life is in a completely artificial self-selected setting. Does any of that sound like a good thing?
bob_theslob646over 7 years ago
&quot;The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works.&quot;<p>Was there not a 60 minutes on this topic?<p>I wonder if being addicted to a smart phone will actually be a disease in the future.
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chrischenover 7 years ago
This guy’s legit. It’s refreshing to see a tech leader admit to the part luck plays.
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pitchupsover 7 years ago
More than social media by itself, the real force that is accelerating the harmful effects of this new &quot;addiction&quot; is the mobile phone - due to the fact that it is with is all the time, everywhere. That together with push notifications, and ease of use complete the instant gratification feedback loop that feeds off and drives the addiction. So much of our attention is consumed by it, that even in social gartherings, it is hard to have a conversation with some one without being interrupted or distracted by the device. It has almost become a joke - family gatherings and social get-togethers become places for people to congregate huddled over their mobile phones...
dmodeover 7 years ago
Social Media has been terrible for society. I say this as someone who spends considerable time on social media. But it&#x27;s full impact has only starting to unravel. We have seen nothing yet, the end result of social media, IMO, will be magnitudes of order more ghastly than what we have seen. In developing countries, social media is playing havoc in sowing division among very fragile social order. The kind of forwards, memes, jokes my dad receives from his Whatsapp community is shocking. And at age 75, he has no capacity to distinguish between real and completely made up propaganda. The effects are slowly been realized.
bjt2n3904over 7 years ago
&gt; We are living now, not in the delicious intoxication induced by the early successes of science, but in a rather grisly morning-after, when it has become apparent that what triumphant science has done hitherto is to improve the means for achieving unimproved or actually deteriorated ends.<p>Huxley
whiddershinsover 7 years ago
I recently marked 4 months with zero acces to my Facebook news feed. I used the hacker news plugin to prevent the feed from showing on my laptop, and when I realized how much I was still looking at the app on my phone, I deleted the mobile app.<p>I can’t overstate how much of a positive change this has been for me. It was a level of life altering freedom and a return of free time and mental clarity in the ballpark of abstaining from alcohol.<p>The number of times it has inconvenienced me is precisely once. I still have messenger for those people who like to reach out that way. I still can log on and see events and notifications.<p>But the addictive news feed is gone from my life and I couldn’t be happier.<p>That’s my n=1 but I will never go back.
jokoonover 7 years ago
I often browse &#x2F;r&#x2F;4chan and I have to admit than even though 4chan is not a website I often go to or use at all, it seems like it&#x27;s a much more attractive and fun place to go to.<p>I really don&#x27;t understand the point of stating your real identity on a social media. Internet security is already not perfect to this day, so what&#x27;s the point? Facebook doesn&#x27;t even let you meet new people outside your network, or even interact with friends of your friends in a trustful manner.<p>4chan is like the local pub, facebook is like a bar where everyone has their name and interests written on their face. Evidently 4chan seems more natural.
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rad_gruchalskiover 7 years ago
As I mentioned here a number of times before, I already removed fb from my phone years ago. The best thing I did yesterday was to log out from fb on the computer.
forapurposeover 7 years ago
I think people doubt the power and threat of social media (and online porn[0]) because of their physical properties: They are images on a screen - how much harm can such things do? They are not intravenous drugs.<p>But what if social media, or some aspect of it, or online porn had the same cognitive, emotional, and&#x2F;or physical effects on people as heroin? In fact, isn&#x27;t that what online businesses spend so much on, and a generation of smart people work so hard on - addictive engagement? If someone developed engagement that powerful, do you think they&#x27;d stop themselves and say, &#x27;this is too much&#x27;?<p>My point is not that social media and online porn have the same effects as heroin; they do not. Whatever their effects, they are at least different. My point is that we shouldn&#x27;t dismiss their danger based on our preconceptions about the medium by which their effects are delivered.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;11&#x2F;16761016&#x2F;former-facebook-exec-ripping-apart-society" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;11&#x2F;16761016&#x2F;former-facebook...</a>
djroombaover 7 years ago
Its exacabating the problem of social division but I dont think its the root cause.<p>We simply have two nations with radically different belief systems in one nation.
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mikenewover 7 years ago
I remember the first few years of facebook (back when you had to have a university email address to sign up) and I genuinely think it was a positive, value-added-to-the-world kind of experience. I had good friends on there and we would share things, discuss different topics, and in general just interact with each other in a way we weren&#x27;t able to before. There wasn&#x27;t even a &quot;news feed&quot;; you just visited someone&#x27;s page and looked at what they had posted or posted something there yourself that you thought they would appreciate.<p>Facebook is nothing like that anymore, and while there&#x27;s certainly a lot that&#x27;s changed, I think there are two specific things that turned it into what it is now.<p>1) Every single thing you do; posting videos, sharing your thoughts via text, leaving comments, joining a group, etc. runs on a point system. Everything is scored via &quot;likes&quot;, and not only do <i></i>you<i></i> evaluate how good a post was based on the score it receives, but Facebook does too. The higher the score the higher your post will appear in other people&#x27;s feeds and the more friends it will be shown to. Facebook even shows a post to a subset of your friends to judge how well it will perform, and if it receives a lot of likes it will be pushed out to a broader audience. You are, quite literally, playing a game.<p>Not only does that change your value system from &quot;hey I found something that &lt;friend&gt; would like and I&#x27;m going to share it with them so we can talk about it&quot; to &quot;hey I found something that will get me a lot of points&quot;; it also means that trivial content rises to the top. Cat pictures are kinda-neat to everyone but not extremely meaningful to anyone, while a thoughtful post on a specific topic probably doesn&#x27;t appeal to everyone, but it will mean a lot to a few people. But with the one-vote-per-person rule, the thoughtful post gets buried.<p>2) Advertisements displace real content. YouTube, for all it&#x27;s other flaws, has a very straightforward ad model. Ads essentially just piggyback on videos. If you make a really good video that means that lots of people will want to watch it, lots of ads can be shown, you get lots of views, and all three parties are happy without interfering with each other&#x27;s interests. With Facebook, ads don&#x27;t piggyback on other content, they replace it. If you are a company and you want to advertise yourself, you make a post and then pay have Facebook show it to more people and place it higher in their news feeds. Real content gets pushed down. And what&#x27;s worse, there&#x27;s no real distinction between ads and content. I believe you can even pay to boost your own posts, even as a normal user.<p>I think that there are going to be problems with any social platform, but Facebook is gross. It&#x27;s a social game that exploits people&#x27;s natural behaviors and ways of thinking, and does it without them realizing it to make a profit.
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mseebachover 7 years ago
&gt; <i>Palihapitiya currently runs his own VC firm, Social Capital, which focuses on funding companies in sectors like healthcare and education.</i><p>Oh, it&#x27;s good that he at least doesn&#x27;t have a direct, personal financial interest in saying the things he does to the audience he&#x27;s addressing.
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eternalbanover 7 years ago
He categorically stated [t=10m] that &quot;150 [people], and they are all men, run the world&quot;.<p>Watch the interview.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;PMotykw0SIk" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;PMotykw0SIk</a>
charlyslover 7 years ago
Social media are like tabloids on steroids. Just like with tabloids, possibly the only practical remedy is better education, but who is interested?
1290ccover 7 years ago
Chamath is all about entertainment, his Q&amp;A was fun to watch and filled with brilliant one liners that are quote worthy in their shallowness. Ultimately his advice is useless to a group of people that have to work for a living.<p>He also pontificates and chastises social media yet he is a prolific on twitter.
braindead_inover 7 years ago
Here&#x27;s a rough automated transcript in case anyone&#x27;s interested <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scribie.com&#x2F;transcript&#x2F;1c42571af44d45aea69d600f9a5a766da3157e6e" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scribie.com&#x2F;transcript&#x2F;1c42571af44d45aea69d600f9a5a7...</a>
divbitover 7 years ago
You know, if everyone on facebook would stop doing this stuff:<p>[link deleted since although it&#x27;s all over the internet, who knows if that subject agreed to it being everywhere anyway it&#x27;s &quot;Guy slightly changes his friend&#x27;s Facebook pictures&quot;]<p>then I think it would help the platform. It was a great site when it was just basically a nicely formatted yellow pages for people, with no news feed. Now it&#x27;s just another place trying (well it feels like it) to push, bot generated news down my throat. This kind of sucks because I can tell they, do, put a lot of effort into what they are doing (which means they must care about it) but the result is still much worse than when it was just a personal homepage, (imho of course). Also I get the creepy feeling that they it&#x27;s the most likely thing to turn into the people rating engine (like the black mirror episode), so that kind of turns me off, quite a bit (I mean, that wouldn&#x27;t be quite as bad as having jew armbands in 1939, but... it&#x27;s in that direction certainly).
EGregover 7 years ago
I&#x27;m surprised that, in all this time, no one has done better.<p>Here is our manifesto from our site (qbix.com)<p>The internet has given us opportunities to connect with one another like never before. Yet, most sites we use today have barely tapped that potential. We believe in the power of well-designed tools to improve people&#x27;s lives and bring about positive social change. They are characterized by five main aspects:<p>Time: Instead of priding ourselves on how much time people spend in our apps, we want people to get in, get out, and get results.<p>Utility: Help people get things done in the real world, rather than building an online persona.<p>Notifications: Let people control which updates they receive about things happening in their life, instead of getting them addicted to notifications like a slot machine.<p>Organic: In every context, pre-compute useful information and present it to the user, enabling them to do more in less steps.<p>Business Model: Make money by helping people accomplish useful things as a group, not just by selling advertising.<p>These aren&#x27;t just empty words. They are actionable goals to aim for in social apps.
YaxelPerezover 7 years ago
Isn&#x27;t facebook terrible because most people are terrible?
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butler14over 7 years ago
&quot;No wonder the world&#x27;s brightest minds are working at companies like this.&quot;<p>This is a pretty absurd comment that would only really fly on a place like HN.
charlyslover 7 years ago
Maybe I am a bit old school, but am I the only one shocked by his bad language? This makes it hard for me to take him seriously.
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rblionover 7 years ago
I deleted this comment. This isn&#x27;t the right forum for this kind of thought.
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rexreedover 7 years ago
I&#x27;m sure he&#x27;s crying all the way to the bank.
junkscience2017over 7 years ago
this is petty pandering and moral grandstanding. if he thinks his gains are truly ill-gotten, he can purify his money by giving it to charity. instead he is buying bespoke suits.