What exactly is Full Stack these days?

28 pointsby ccachorover 7 years ago

I don't know if it's just me, but I'm getting pissed off at job requirements. For example, below:==============================================The ideal candidate has the following qualifications:Deep understanding of front-end JavaScript development using libraries such as React, Angular, etc. Basic understanding of AWS Services, such as Lambda, API Gateway, CodeCommit, CodeBuild, CodeDeploy, and CodePipline Expert in CSS/HTML5 Deep understanding of development using either Python, Node, or Ruby Comfortable and excited about interacting with clients and end users Expertise in developing under Linux or OS X Desire to pursue AWS Development Certifications toward expert-level achievement Familiarity with SQL and NOSQL databases Experience with orchestration tools such as Ansible, Salt, Chef, or Puppet Experience with Vagrant or Docker Familiarity with continuous integration systems such as Jenkins or Bamboo Familiarity with tracking systems such as JIRA Ability to work independently and collaboratively – self-motivated, accountable, and able to offer up new ideas Critical thinking, troubleshooting, and problem-solving talents A balance of technical, business, and social/emotional intelligence Passion about learning coupled with an ability to learn new skills quickly==============================================Oh really!?!? So, you're looking for a sysadmin, a backend developer, a front-end developer and you expect them to be socio/emotionally well balanced?!Is this an exercise for the hiring manager to feel better about themselves? Face meet palm, they're trying to hire Superman.Fuck the hell off.

18 comments

r-sover 7 years ago

"Full Stack" dev here, been coding for 16 or so years. CS degree in there somewhere.I've used every one of those technologies with the exception of Salt (Nothing against it, just have not used it). I don't think I am that much of a rare breed. Some of the AWS technologies many would not be exposed too, but learning an AWS build pipeline is not difficult if you have used competitors.I don't think that is that crazy of a job description. If someone has focused on breadth of skill over depth, you are going to run across most of those technologies (With the exception of some of the AWS services I don't see that much).Ive mostly worked for startups and its not uncommon for me to write front end modern javascript, build backends, orchestrate deployment pipelines and be involved in a sales call all in a single day.I am very far from superman. Its pretty easy to be "Ok" at many technologies. Its pretty hard to be truly great at a single technology. I admire those who truly master a specific technology but I learned that my strength is breadth over depth. I am sure if a truly seasoned JS developer saw some of my frontend code they would have lots of suggestions for improvement, but that is fine by me. I can build stuff which meets the intended goals and generally everyone is happy.

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dagwover 7 years ago

I guess it all comes down to what they mean by "basic understanding", "experience" and "familiarity". I am pretty inexperienced with modern web developer, but I still have a basic understanding what the difference AWS services do (ie I've read the description of them on the AWS homepage). I have experience with Vagrant and Docker (ie I've installed and played around with both and some point). I'm familiar with tracking systems such as JIRA (although not actually JIRA).Basically don't read too much into lists like this. As long as you've heard of everything on the list and are good at two of the most import ones you're probably good to go.

jdownerover 7 years ago

When I see job descriptions like this, I think one of two things: (1) either they don't know who they want, or (2) they don't know what they are making. Part of me wonders if they are trying to convey how smart and relevant they are. Of, perhaps, this is what happens when you write content with SEO in mind.My personal red flag is the 'development certification'. Most of the certifications I have seen are more about the appearance of expertise than having actual expertise. This is something that you almost exclusively see in large bureaucracies, which leads me to believe that (1) -- they don't know who they want -- is the case and they are using a scatter-shot approach.

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CDCollierover 7 years ago

I see nothing here that an inept individual with a 4 year degree and an attuned interest in the industry couldn't achieve within 10 years. Much less if they are motivated and establish healthy habits.I don't see bullet-proof or laser vision on the list.Besides, wouldn't you want to know all of this? The bigger your tool set, the better your development.

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mvc_robotover 7 years ago

I am a "Full Stack" engineer with 2 years of experience working for a small company. Worked in everything of that except Ruby include ios(swift,Objective C),android,Java,Scala,MySql,DynamoDb,MongoDb. It was frustrating at the start and then it became a joy.But then not sure if I am good at any of those. The same day I would be fixing a Jenkins build, write some Node and fix bugs in the ios code base, completely normal. I am not ashamed to show off.

oblibover 7 years ago

That is an hilarious list of expectations. It's akin to announcing they have an concept for a product and no idea how to make it so you'll have to know and do everything that might possibly be needed to accomplish it from start to finish including the patience to address their every whim along the way.They don't say how long they'll give you to make it but I'd bet they'll expect it ready to ship in a few weeks or a month at most :D

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StriverGuyover 7 years ago

I fail to see the issue with this post. Frankly, if you are learning and willing to try new technologies across areas of the web dev stack you should have a grasp on 80% of these things at least (I didn't say expertise).What I am more surprised by is the unwillingness by many - indicated in the comments - to explore things outside their domain.

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flignatsover 7 years ago

The candidate that fits all these requirements wouldn't be looking at their job posting.

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godotover 7 years ago

Is that the job description for senior level+? It honestly doesn't sound unreasonable to assume a senior+ engineer to have experience with all of these technologies in this day and age. Software development tools have come a long way in the past decade and it's become possible for a generalist full stack dev to learn about and use every part of this (not having to be an expert in any, of course).I'd say the more problematic part of hiring is in the interview stage, where inevitably you'll be asked questions around binary search trees, merge sorts, and the like. (Admittedly, I am also guilty of using such interview questions myself in the past as an interviewer.) I find that it's actually more reasonable to expect knowledge and working experience with all the tech tools you listed, than actually asking about inverting a binary search tree. I don't have good answers for what one should ask instead.

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daedalbugover 7 years ago

I don't think that's too bad though - I'd prefer them to clarify what they mean by 'deep' vs 'basic' understanding, but I certainly know a few developers with 3-5 years experience who could comfortably tick the box

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citizensover 7 years ago

Not only would the ideal candidate have the above experience, they would also have to be able to pass whatever interview process they have lined up.When a company wants such a broad skillset/range of experience, how would they interview for it?Unrelated edit: I looked up the job post, and one of the listed benefits is "2 weeks paid vacation". Personally I would need more time off to decompress from constantly being pulled in different directions.

SanjeevSharmaover 7 years ago

This person does not exist. It is a myth created in Silicon Valley. What 'Full Stack' should really mean is someone who can learn new technical skills real fast. Someone with a passion for learning and implementing what she learns. In an ever-expanding technology scope, it is really impossible to know it all, but one can be on a journey to be curious and learn the skills that the job needs.

lothiraldanover 7 years ago

IMHO, a Full Stack developer would be someone able to bootstrap a project on his/her own. He/Her doesn't need someone else to have an MVP in production.But I agree that the job requirements you gave as an example are insane, you can't be an expert in every stack of a product. At least not with the current implicit age requirement of the industry.

tobaschcoover 7 years ago

What do you expect from a job these days?"Has skills in a single area"?To be honest, it's not that hard to gain a bit of familiarity with all this tech.

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romanovcodeover 7 years ago

> sysadmin (devops), a backend developer, a front-end developerThat's basically what full-stack means. I don't get what's your problem with this is.

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gtw_jj_2over 7 years ago

When I see something like that I just run away and don't look back.

quickthrower2over 7 years ago

But but they have a ping pong table and infinite vacay!

davidjnelsonover 7 years ago

Lol idk if you’ve been doing this stuff for 20 years you’ll have those skills ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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